97 replies to this topic

[Dazed and confused]

The main difference is that Schumacher's accident and possibly lost WDC was caused by failure in brakes, but Hakkinen's spin was caused by Mika himself. Mika was very angry with himself for making such a stupid mistake. Had it been a mechanical failure of somekind we would not have seen Mika crying.

I don't get this, Luca Badoer cried after he was forced to retire at the European GP. Fisichella also cried after crashing out while leading the same GP and due to his own mistake. Why don't you start a topic about those incidents?

[Bob Nomates]

I doubt that very much, Mika turns on the water works regularly!!!

Do you have evidence that Micheals breaks failed??....there seems to be so many different storys concerning this issue that I'm not so sure that they did, and Schumacher didn't give himself enough time to scrub off enough speed to make it around the corner so the breaks failing neither here no there.

In the case of the other drivers crying that is not relavent because they were not championsip contenders and it is not them that I was talking about.

[Louis Mr. F1]

Bob, you said: "hitting someone at low speed is acceptable", what acceptable??, just because it's not endangering other people's life doesn't mean its acceptable. According to you, then, every driver can take out the guy ahead at ie. a hairpin, it is still acceptable.
and what's so great that MS didn't cry after his accident, the point other people trying to make is back in 95, after Mika's life threatening accident, he didn't wake up and started crying either......so Mika is just as "brave" as MS in that area. Mika cried after Monza because he was upset about his own mistake.

[Bob Nomates]

Mika didn't cry at Adelaide because:
1. He couldn't breath
2. He was knocked out

This hardly makes him brave

[Louis Mr. F1]

Bob you haven't respond to my first arguement, what hitting other at low speed is acceptable?
Mika was brave enough to come back from an accident like that and be a world champion he is today. grow up

[Dazed and confused]

Bob, you wrote: "In the case of the other drivers crying that is not relavent because they were not championsip contenders". So, Badoer crying over lost wdc points (2) and Fisichella crying over lost maiden victory is ok, but Mika crying after making a stupid mistake in a crucial, maybe title deciding race is not OK? I think Mika had more to lose than LB or GF, or is it more acceptable to cry over something that doesn't really matter?

[Louis Mr. F1]

Bob's arguement are very poorly supported

[JJP]

I guess Mika must be a very scary opponent for a Schumyfan if crying is the only thing to come up with when trying to put down poor old Mika.

And by the way, I'll rather watch Mika cry than Michael with his front pushed jaw when things don't go his way... man, he looks just like a spoiled child who didn't get the toy he wanted.

[GoAlesi]

Bob, I think you are confused as to what happened with HHF in Canada. JV was the one who out-braked himself into the first corner, when he was trying to get round Fisichella.

HHF was simply driving along the straight when Michael pulled sharply out of the pits forcing HHF on to the grass at high speed. HHF was furious and rightly so, especially as Michael himself in the driver's meeting earlier stressed the importance of drivers exiting the pits to be aware of other cars on the pit straight.

Yours is the first opinion I have seen that does not agree that Schumacher was badly in the wrong in that incident. The race stewards did not take your view, giving Schumacher a 10 sec stop-go penalty. And Autocourse called it "an astonishing display of reckless driving".

With regards to the crying thing, I think that what a driver does once he steps out of his car is of no real relevance. Of interest maybe, but ultimately what counts is what happens on the track. Therefore a thread discussing Hakkinen's loss of concentration a couple of times last year, or his bad races at the Nurburgring or Malaysia maybe more significant. The fact that he cried did not lose him any championship points, while those mistakes did. Personally I think Mika answered his critics in the best possible way by coming back to win the championship assuredly in Suzuka.

[This message has been edited by GoAlesi (edited 03-05-2000).]

[Bob Nomates]

Louis, hitting another driver at low speed is acceptable it is called nudging, all the drivers do it to remind each other about where they are so be careful, for example if a Schumacher is break testing Hakkinen, Hakkinen can hit him so Schumacher knows not to do it.

Mika was brave enough to come back from an accident like that and be a world champion he is today.

I think your confusing brave with stupid.

Dazed & confused, yes!!!
I'm was NOT talking about Fisco OR Badoer, so it is not relevant. This thread is about Hakkinen.
Although I will say that Hakkinen has the opportunity to win every race on the calendar with the car he has but nobody would expect him to do that because he is human and will make mistakes, and if he can't except that he will not finish every race no matter what position he retires from then he is putting too much pressure on himself.

JJP, I'm not a Schumy fan or a fan of any driver in particular I'm a fan of the sport….when have you seen Michael cry?…..Why would you rather watch anyone cry, do you get some sort of morbid pleasure from it?

GoAlesi, I'm not confusing anything with anything I know what I'm talking about.
Schumacher did not force HHF onto the grass, if you read what I wrote I said that HHF had the opportunity to use his breaks, or force Schumacher across the track to give himself more room but he choose not to.
What I'm trying to discuss is how badly Hakkinen took losing a race and to what degree this hurt him and the effect it had on his confidence and therefore his performance on the track, so I think it is of relevance.

[The Swerve]

Bob. this is F1 not NASCAR. Deliberately hitting another driver is not only unacceptable it would be pretty stupid. The slightest 'nudge' with a modern era F1 car would most proberbly end in retirement for both cars.

Any driver who trys to hit another driver intends to take him out, nothing more than that.

[Bob Nomates]

Drivers are always hitting each other and not retiring, I'm not talking about hitting each other flat out but at low speed or low closing speed, that's why I called it nudging.

[The Swerve]

I haven't seen anybody hitting anyone else and not losing a bit of wing or something or even retiring. Look what happened when Trulli 'nudged' Damon Hill at Melbourne last year. First retirement of the year for Mr Hill.

I am quite sure that if any driver started banging into people on a regular basis then he would soon be seeing the old black flag.

Can you give me an example of what you mean?

Banging is ok in NASCAR and maybe CART but it has no place in Formula One.

[This message has been edited by The Swerve (edited 03-05-2000).]

[Bob Nomates]

I agree banging has no place, but nudging is common!

[The Swerve]

Sorry Bob, I haven't see any nudging in F1. Show me where/when?

[This message has been edited by The Swerve (edited 03-05-2000).]

[Bob Nomates]

I have.

[Grano]

I doubt that very much, Mika turns on the water works regularly!!!

Ah he does now does he? I would love to see you give another example than the one you have been obsessing about for a few months now...

And as for it affecting his confidence and performance, well we all know who won the WDC last year don´t we? And we all saw a great race from him in Suzuka so that should answer your question. How about you star discussing something with some value now?

[Bob Nomates]

Ah he does now does he? I would love to see you give another example than the one you have been obsessing about for a few months now...

I started this thread last week, what are you talking about?

And as for it affecting his confidence and performance, well we all know who won the WDC last year don´t we? And we all saw a great race from him in Suzuka so that should answer your question. How about you star discussing something with some value now?

His confidence was shot at the Nurburging, this was because of the incident at Monza, he didn't want to leave anything to chance and end up with only a couple of points.
At Malaysia he came third, four points behind Irvine at Suzuka he made a good start that was it.
The Monza incident effected him greatly hence the tears and jumping about, this is of value if he make a mistake like this against Schumacher that's it for him, he will get crushed.
Comprend-a?

[P1 Senna]

Irvine made Hakkinen cry?? Oh pulleeeze!! Mika's mental error made Mika lose it. He wasn't being pressured by Irvine at Monza - he simply pulled his downshift lever one too many times.

Irvine made Mika cry - that's a good one. Got any more jokes Bob??

[JJP]

Sorry Bob, I simply had no idea that my english is that bad and hard to understand.

I'll try to rephrase myself:

If I have to choose (to watch) between MS showing long face or a helicam shot of crying Mika I'll pick the latter.

I hope you got it this time, and no, I don't get any special kicks out of crying people.

[Louis Mr. F1]

Bob, back to your nudging argument, you said "if Schumacher is brake testing Hakkinen, Hakkinen can hit him , so Schumacher knows not to do it". we are talking about F1 car, not Nascar or bumper car, 90% of the time, it's the car behind which would damage its nose, not the car in front. Also, even Hakkinen hits Schumacher MS wouldn't stop brake testing him, he actually want Hakkinen to run into his car.

If Hakkinen is stupid for coming back after an accident, so is Schumacher. He could lose his life in a similar accident. Also, by your standard, every driver particating is stupid then. Because an accident could happen to anyone.

[Louis Mr. F1]

Also, Bob, what Grano tried to say is can you give another example as to Hakkinen cry on a regular basis (quote "turn on the water REGULARLY"), get it? pls don't avoid the real question.

Bob, what about nudging the car in front to cause him spin off, is that acceptable?

[mtl'78]

Bob, I agree with you but you are wrong about Canada '98. I was there, right in front of the Senna "S" and saw the whole thing:

when MS leaves pits, the light indicating a car on the straight is flashing.

The marshal, was waving the flagto warn him.

When MS exited the pits, he did not have enough room to accelerate to full speed before the corner. HHF was about 50 yards behind when he merged with he track. HHF was doing 300kph and closed in under 1 second. MS still far from full speed, moved into HHF's way on the outside, when he could have taken the inside. By the time MS went to move to the outside edge of the rack, they were side by side, and actually ran together, until MS squeezed him out. NO question. But he did get a 10 sec. stop/go penalty and he came back to win anyways.

It looked like he thought he could get in front if he pushed and came up short. He was ucky it was HHF who preferred the grass to contact. Had it been JV or Hill, MS would have crashed...

[Bob Nomates]

P1, the pressure of competing against Irvine caused him to spin off, if he was just testing do you think he would make such a simple mistake?

Louis, I'm not talking about the sort of force Coulthard hit Salo with or Schumacher hit Coulthard with I'm talking about a GENTAL TAP just to let him know he's there, like rubbing wheels.

There is a huge difference between Schumachers accident and Hakkinens and you know it, so stop playing dumm, Hakkinen had a serious head injury Schumacher broke a leg, Hakkinen was not fit to drive and he was struggling all the time, that is dangerous if he had another crash and banged his head again half as hard it would have been pretty unlikely he would have recovered a second time, IMO he should have given racing a rest and been the test driver untill he was 100%.

Hakkinen & Ron cry on a regular basis and you know it.

[Oho]

Ave !!

Bob, please tell me how to obtain the medical history of an individual which you have no relation with, I mean to argue that Mika was or is not fit to drive as a consequence of his head trauma at Australia requires fairly intricate knowledge to the injuries he sustained and also medical expertise to asses the long term consequences. You are like a sales man, this kind of confidence can only be achieved through total ignorance.

- Oho -

[The Swerve]

Bob, Nudging.....where, when? Examples please, I really want to see where you mean!

[Ursus]

Mtl'78, where was this track marshall that was waving a yellow flag? As I remember discussions about the marshall not being at his post, I d/l a mpeg from the incident. I'm assuming that the flagman in question is the guy sitting at the very end of the pitwall, with a view of both the straight and the pits? The mpeg showed both of MS's pitstops and at the time of the incident there were no marshall at the pit exit, but at the second pitstop the post was manned. So if this is the relevant marshall then there were no yellow flag shown and your memory have failed you.

------------------
Ursus
Trust me, send money.

[130R]

F1 suspensions are not designed to take a shock from so-called nudging (thats a lark!) and hence they could bend quite easily and therefore, it cannot be acceptable.

Furthermore, Schumacher claimed he didn't see Frentzen in Canada, so how can it not be his fault!

[This message has been edited by 130R (edited 03-06-2000).]

[Bob Nomates]

Oho, You don't need to be a medical expert to see that he wasn't ready, it's most peoples opinion that Hakkinen came back to soon, he wasn't fit, and you don't get over something as serious as a skull fracture in a few months, he also had his throat cut open so he could breath and was in a coma for a few days, if this happened to me I would not be back at work after such a sort space of time, but Hakkinens job is driving around at 200mph, which is something that requires your body to be in perfect health because it is being pushed to the limit of endurance, Mika was no where near being in this shape.
You don't need a doctorate to work this out, just a couple of brain cells will do!!!

130R, I think you are having trouble grasping what I'm try to say, the nudging I'm talking about is gentle nudging, for the umpteenth time!!!!, I'm talking about the kind of brushing wheels that is NOT powerful enough to bend suspension….This as happened may times I don't need to compile a list sometimes it goes wrong but it does happen.

[JJP]

Bob, just wondering, how you know for a fact that Michael didn't cry after his accident? Do you have some fancy helicam shot I never saw?

And BTW, "I know he didn't cry because he's no crybaby like MH!" doesn't qualify as an answer.

[Oho]

Ave !!

So who gave him the license to drive? Things that are so plain to see may not, in fact, be all that plain. Considering that you from thousands of miles with just a couple of brain cells and only indirect evidence arrived at this great and apparently correct conclusion automatically puts the professional aptitude of one Professor Watkins (or thereabouts) in most questionable light or rather right down the toilet, right. He did after all okay Mikas partcipation in the races hence must not be worthy of medical degree let alone doctorate. Regradless of your convincing argument and my doubts of the medical porfession I still rely more on the medical staff that actually treated him and were responsible for his physical readiness to drive the blasted thing.

- Oho -

[Bob Nomates]

The doctor...who's name I forget now....said he was suprised about how cool he was under the curcumstances.

Also he wouldn't have been waving to the crowd if he was crying because he would have been rubbing his eyes instead, like Hakkinen.

[JJP]

But hey, I've seen Irvine waving to the crowds and people say that he's a wanker...

[130R]

OK, OK, Bob, I hear you loud and clear, the gentle nudging! Oh. I thought you meant the hide-behind-the-bushes-come-storming-out-and-t-bone the guy nudging. Were cool.

[Bob Nomates]

Oho, your talking like a lawyer, and your trying to make out that he was 100%, don't forget this was some years ago now and I doubt he would be allowed to drive by todays standards.
Many doctors make mistakes they are human, the doctor may have allowed him to drive because of some kind of fitness test but that hardly consitutes the same thing, Hakkinen was not fit enough to be competative against any of the drivers and so should not have been allowed to race.
Use your brain cell!!!!

BTW it doesn't matter whether I'm thousands of miles away or not, it wouldn't make any difference I'm not a doctor, but this is my thoughts "He was no way fit enough to drive!!!"

[Oho]

Ave !!!

Bullshit I never implied that he had fully recoverd, in fact he will never fully recover from the accident. You on the other hand directly argued that he was not fit to drive and was irresponisble to do so. You make this argument with precious little knowledge, evidence and expertise and rather than any truth it reflects the negative opinion you hold of Mika. Doctors hardly made a simple mistake like this considering they had five months to monitor his progress. You are truly out on limb to suggest that your judgement in this matter is better founeded than that of the people that worked with him at the time. No doubt I am an egoistic s.o.b but even I cant reach your hights, I am in awe. Opinion of the most, screw you, I sincerely doubt you ever asked the most for their opinion.

- Oho -

[magnum]

I cried ...
finally having read through this thread ...Bob,no!F1 racers do NOT nudge,push, bash, or any other verb u wish to come up with each other on a regular basis ... when this "nudging" occurs it is called a "mistake" ... as for this crying business ...MIka was simply frustrated -and not having anyone to blame for the way his season was turning to garbage, he could only blame himself and therefore started howling - it was either that or slapping himself with a wet fish ... as for Bob (again),NO! we will not remember the 1999 season for that little monment, we (as in F1 fans) will remember it for dozens of reasons, no less poor Badoer so close to getting his first ever points ... now if there is some argument over Mika's mental fragility, surely his performance at Suzuka,when it mattered, showed him to have the right stuff ...perhaps someone should start a thread with "when will Schumacher pretend to be sick and take off work again?" Please...
and will you ALL STOP POSTING 3 PAGES for this silly thread - I kept expecting something reasonable and wasted an hour reading about Mika crying!
Jees sunday can't come fast enough hey!

[Bob Nomates]

Ave!!!

Why do you always start your posts with this????….what is it about???

Bullshit I never implied that he had fully recovered

you implied he was fit enough to race, anything less than 100% is dangerous, not just to him but the other drivers as well, what would have happened if he blacked out?

You on the other hand directly argued that he was not fit to drive and was irresponsible to do so.

Damm right!!!

You are truly out on limb to suggest that your judgement in this matter is better founded than that of the people that worked with him at the time.

Bullshit….when?…in any case they, I'm sure would agree with me.

Opinion of the most, screw you, I sincerely doubt you ever asked the most for their opinion.

You are an extremely arrogant young man!!!!……this was the opinion of most apart from Hakkinen….nobody in their right mind would start racing again so soon after such a big accident, I'm sure that if he hadn't of banged his head so hard, he would be the first to agree with me.


[This message has been edited by Bob Nomates (edited 03-06-2000).]

[Oho]

Ave !!

33 and counting.....

Actually I only indirectly implied Mika was fit to race. I merely stated that the people responsible for determining whether he was fit or not concluded that he was fit and I am more willing to accept their ruling than that of a negatively biased fan.

Anything less than 100% and to participate is irresponsible. Well I am looking forward to such time when everybody realizes this and we end up looking at an empty grid. No doubt I am arrogant though not young (33) but I am not nearly as arrogant as you to believe that I have the right to speak with the voice of the most and to define the truth.

Wendlinger took less time than Mika after a similar accident, Lehto took less time than Mika again after a similar accident. But guess they were not in their respective right minds either because Bob told me so.

- Oho -

[This message has been edited by Oho (edited 03-07-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Oho (edited 03-07-2000).]

[speedy]

Bob,

what is your problem ? One Häkkinen crying was nothing compared with hundreds or thousands of tifosis crying in public when the outcome of Suzuka was clear. They had gathered in Maranello to celebrate Ferraris double but the cry-baby made them cry. Life is cruel sometimes, but it continues

[Mecon]

He will start blubbing when "Cube" pushes him off the track again.

[Bob Nomates]

Ave!!!

I'm not a negatively biased fan, this is nothing personal against Mika.
Not everyone one on the grid my be fit 100% but none of them have spent the winter recovering from a Coma…..that is my point, can't you understand this or are you just another overly emotional Hakkinen fan?

Wedlinger didn't come back to F1 after his accident so what's your point?…and Lehto's accident was nothing like as serious as Hakkinen's, he was racing again about 6 weeks later and if he had been in a coma with a fractured skull that must have been the greatest recovery ever, a miracle!!!


[This message has been edited by Bob Nomates (edited 03-07-2000).]

[Oho]

Ave !!

You are wrong on both accounts. Wendlinger did try to come back but unsuccesfully. According to "www.motorsport.com" he was to drive at Suzuka 94 but canceled his participation under recommendations from his doctors. He later signed for Sauber for 95 but did not competete for the entire season.
Both Häkkinen and Wendlinger were held in drug induced coma from which they woke soon after the drugs were cut off. Karls coma lasted if I recall much longer than that of Mikas and the reason in both cases was to protect the brain from swelling. Mika as far as I know was actually put into coma after his accident, he did not fall into it. Lehto as far as I know fractured his neck and the base of his skull much like Mika. He made his return much sooner than Mika and some believe that the accident cut the wings of his F1 career. So I am an overly emotional Hakkinen fan and you are the oh so rational thinker. The surest sign that objectivity is lost is the inability to question your own thinking, which was the point in my first message regarding the subject. You are pushing your opinions as facts and call me arrogant for pointing out the flaw in that. If you are able to find a single reliable reference which indicates that the people who actually knew the condition Mika was in urged him not to drive I concede he was not fit to race, till the nI just dont know anymore than you. So far you have just resorted to your opinions, those of the next guy down the road for all I know, and you self proclaimed intellectual superiority over me. At the time I was surprised that Mika made his comeback so quickly, but I certainly was not in position to judge his decision, apparently you were and are, Bob all mighty.

This is what FIA released regarding Mika less than 48 hour after the accident:

Mika Hakkinen continues his rapid recovery from his high-speed accident on Friday. His
diagnosis has been upgraded from "potential brain damage" to "a severe concussion". He no
longr requires a respirator for breathing.

He is expected to stay under observation in the intensive care unit at Royal Adelaide Hospital
until Monday. He will then continue his recovery in a standard hospital room until he is able to
safely fly back to Europe, probably next weekend.

After regaining consciousness on Saturday, Hakkinen slept comfortably on Saturday night,
and is now thinking and talking normally. The doctors now expect him to make a full recovery
and be able to return to racing.

"The specialists have considered his recovery, and especially its speed, as remarkable," said
Ron Dennis, McLaren team manager. "It seems likely that recovery could be much faster than
anyone anticipated."

Dennis credited the track marshals and doctors for their quick thinking and action in the
aftermath of the accident. One of the marshals held Hakkinen's head upright immediately after
the impact, and one of the three doctors, who arived in less than a minute, was a
neurosurgeon. "Without a doubt it was their behaviour and their performance, assisted by
Professor Watkins [of FIA], which saved Mika's life.

The rest of the stuff is similar, guess they were all lying. Mika returned to wheel 87 days after his accident and was immediately up to pace, though no doubt the only thing he was testing was himself. This was about a month before the race.

- Oho -

[Bob Nomates]

Ave!!!

Well according to you I'm right on both accounts, like I said Wedlinger never raced again that's my point!
Mika did and that is what I find dangerous, he should have left it at least another 6 months.
Lehto fractured a bone in his neck, true, he did not fracture his skull, that is rubbish!
If he fractured his skull there no way he would have been able to put up with the g-forces, his brain would have seeped out of the fracture like the white on a cracked hardboiled egg!!

You seem to think that F1 drivers are superhuman, sure they are also positive and full of confidence but no amount of chat will heal there bones quicker.

[Oho]

Ave !!

I miss phrased my self. Wendlinger did not compete full season, he participated in the 5 first races of the season before being replaced by Bullion (or something like that).

- Oho -

[Mila]

I'd like to get in on this a little, if only to point out a few possible factors as to why MH continued in F1 were as Wendlinger and Lehto failed.

Lehto's testing accident was, I recall, down to driver error--bad for confidence. Imola was bad karma--having shared a car to the track with Ratzenberger, having caused a start-line accident (which resulted in spectator injuries), having witnessed the demise of Senna. the Finn was basically ok in Spain, but, at the earlier round, Monaco, he found that he couldn't support his head, especially under braking. Montreal caused similar problems for Lehto, and, thus, the team effectively dropped him for a driver who brought some money with him.

Wendlinger's accident was also due to driver error. my guess is that his confidence went downhill too, but, one way or another, he seemed to have lost his touch in a GP car.

MH's accident was due to mechanical failure; thus little or no reason for self-doubt, even though the results were enough to put the fear of God in anyone.

so, there's a psychological aspect to recovery too.

[Mila]

I'd like to get in on this a little, if only to point out a few possible factors as to why MH continued in F1 were as Wendlinger and Lehto failed.

Lehto's testing accident was, I recall, down to driver error--bad for confidence. Imola was bad karma--having shared a car to the track with Ratzenberger, having caused a start-line accident (which resulted in spectator injuries), having witnessed the demise of Senna. the Finn was basically ok in Spain, but, at the earlier round, Monaco, he found that he couldn't support his head, especially under braking. Montreal caused similar problems for Lehto, and, thus, the team effectively dropped him for a driver who brought some money with him.

Wendlinger's accident was also due to driver error. my guess is that his confidence went downhill too, but, one way or another, he seemed to have lost his touch in a GP car.

MH's accident was due to mechanical failure; thus little or no reason for self-doubt, even though the results were enough to put the fear of God in anyone.

so, there's a psychological aspect to recovery too.

[404KF2]

When will Mika cry again? Will MS take a monster dump after the Aussie GP? Does Eddie I. have halitosis?

WHO CARES?