63 replies to this topic

[KinetiK]

How good is the Ferrari? After seeing Barrichello today I'm think it's pretty shitty. He got 5th. 5th.

Yeah, you read that right, 5th.

He couldn't catch DC for God's sake! It's always something with him isnt' it, goddam whiner.

"Ooh, the launch control failed which ruined my race." "Traction control wasn't working as expected so I was unable to pass the victimized David Coulthard and his 'no-better-than-5th place car." "I hit snooze too many times on Thursday and that threw my timing off for the whole weekend." "I wanted my eggs over-easy but they came sunny side up, you know the runny type? It grossed me out and I ended up eating a box of Wheatabix and couldn't fit in my racing suit. That caused my traction control to fail and an eclipse in Africa which in turn spoiled my race you know."

Whatever. Ferrari's getting 1-2 points a race where they should be able to challenge for a full 16 each weekend. He's wasting a good car there and it's a total shame. I'm so disappointed.

[selena]

I am disappointed too but his ability is not the same as Michael's. So taking that into consideration, he is doing okay.

[Ricardo F1]

Which is the problem - Schumacher needs to hang 'em out there and agree to have a quicker driver with him, though Ferrari seem to not have to worry about WCC with Rubens picking up the scraps.

[KinetiK]

Rubens HAS to do better with that car though. He's mid pack skillwise (or #2 as good ol' Juan likes to think... along with the other 20 drivers I guess) and doesn't deserve the Ferrari. He's doing something right, something that I've overlooked because Ferrari have signed him for next year already. Maybe he's a very good setup man. Maybe he gives excellent foot massages.

He sure doesn't deserve the Ferrari though, foot massasges aside.

[baddog]

ricardo I do in fact agree.. but WHO is this hotshoe going to be?

rubens was we were told going to be it, and he turned out to be a damp squib whatever the excuse makers say.. and now its become a well known fact that rubens is a second rate opponent and was chosen as such.

so whats going to happen if someone (kimi? fisi?) comes to ferrari as the next superfast thing and fails to impact on ms? will that person automatically become a rubens?

is it possible that michael is, if he proves faster than whoever he is paired with, damned whatever he does?

Shaun

[molive]

RB was used by Ferrari

how?

they sent him on full tanks, they wanted him to play road block ahead of the Macs and let MS streak away.

As it turns out, Ferrari´s TC is crap and RB (heavy load) lost 3 places and the plan went to waste (and so did RB´s race).

[AlesiUK]

schui doesnt want a competive team mate,hence the fact that he never lets anyone be =1 with him in the team

[Ricardo F1]

baddog, well that's the problem isn't it. I mean you ideally want someone who is top echelon already and a proven race winner - which would be MH, DC and JV. Now I can't see any of those three partnering MS, or being able to keep a straight face if Luca De M told them that if they did partner MS they would get equal treatment!!!

So who else? Kimi looks great but has proven nothing yet, Heidfeld, Fischi, probably in the same basket. Looks like we're stuck for now!

[Raelene]

Molive

sorry, but what about DC - he was on full tanks! RB lost a podium all by himself - by stuffing up his start and then making a mistake and going off track.

[Ricardo F1]

yep, Rubens being Rubens lost Rubens the race.

Now say that three times quickly!

[KinetiK]

Originally posted by AlesiUK
schui doesnt want a competive team mate,hence the fact that he never lets anyone be =1 with him in the team

Oh I don't know about that. Perhaps Schumi would like a challenge, ala Prost and Senna in the McLaren, but I have no proof of that as he's had nothing but patsies (Irvine is only 40% patsy) as teammates thusfar.

Maybe if Rubens gets a gastrointestinal anomoly and has to sit for a race or two we could see Badoer race. I'll bet he does the same thing that Salo did when he subbed for the lame Michael in '99: he kicks ass and takes names. There's no way that the Ferrari is that bad.

[selena]

RB is not too bad, that is why Ferrari have extended his contract. He is quite consistent and brings in the points, though not a shining performer. As I have said earlier, he is okay.

[baddog]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
baddog, well that's the problem isn't it. I mean you ideally want someone who is top echelon already and a proven race winner - which would be MH, DC and JV. Now I can't see any of those three partnering MS, or being able to keep a straight face if Luca De M told them that if they did partner MS they would get equal treatment!!!

So who else? Kimi looks great but has proven nothing yet, Heidfeld, Fischi, probably in the same basket. Looks like we're stuck for now!

I agree entirely, though its obvious if ferrari hired Mika or JV for example then they would get equal treatment.. I mean their status is so high as is their wagepacket that noone would be hiring them as backup! but they woudlnt want to get into the sharktank with michael and thats a shame. the blame is on their timidity I think not on ms though! JV especially I beleive COULD have had the ferrari drive instead of rubens, and that woul dhave been simply great

stuck we are. Ill just have to settle for a sequence of great drives like sundays from michael for my kicks ;)

Shaun

[KinetiK]

Originally posted by selena
RB is not too bad, that is why Ferrari have extended his contract. He is quite consistent and brings in the points, though not a shining performer. As I have said earlier, he is okay.

Selena, no he's not too bad. But there are better that were available for next year. HHF obviously not, Michael would eat him for breakfast but what about frickin Alesi??? What about Button or ... Kimi ("Free engines, Peter..." says Luca de M.) or Mark Webber!!! Hey, why not frickin Badoer, everyone deserves a 2nd chance.

[Ricardo F1]

Shaun - yep, pretty happy times !!!

I honestly don't think Michael would allow Jax, DC or Hakk into the team - why risk it?

[RJL]

Well, when Rube went to Ferrari amidst all the "equal number one" rumours I figured he wouldn't stand a chance. He's turned out to be even worse than I thought. All the whining only does him a further diservice. Personally, I think Eddie did a better job as Michael's whipping boy. At least he didn't whinge about it. Also I was quite impressed with how Eddie managed to challenge for the WDC in Michael's absence. Put Rube in the same position today and I'm sure he'd squander the chance with lots of spins and excuses.

BTW, Baddog, IMO Fisi would be waaay better than Rube. In fact, I'd say that Button would prob'ly be better than Rube, also Truly, Kimi, Alesi, Jos, etc, etc. Heck, now that they don't have to shift, my neighbour Gabriel could prob'ly spank ol' Teletubby. Maybe I'm wrong on that but the guy has consistently not impressed; particularly given the equipment he has at this disposal.

[Sammyed]

This is funny...really is.
Last week was all about JPM and this week is Barrichello...

Give him a break, he´s giving some important points to Ferrari for the WCC....and that´s a lot of money.

[Ricardo F1]

But he should be getting oh so many more with the best car on the grid.

[Sammyed]

Agree with that, but you know..sometimes s**t happens, and he´s not doing it so bad at the general..

[Beezie]

If Ferrari were to drop Rubens, who could they get to replace him? MS is a team favorite. He brought them the construtor's championship and will always be in contention for the WDC. Any driver going there has to know, barring an act of god, MS will be around the front of the points standings. Ferrari is a team with a #1 and a #2 driver. Guess who gets to be #2?

Why would , say, a Kimi R., who's getting the chance to race and make a reputation for himself, sign on to be someone's on-track helper? Being #2 at Ferrari doesn't appear to be a wonderous career builder.

I can't think of an established driver who would want to move to Ferrari. There's too much chance of MS getting ahead in the points early and the team focusing on him for the balance of the season.

What they're doing now seems to be working for them. MS is leading the WDC, Ferrari is leading the CC, and Rubens seems to realize there are no other seats available where he stands a chance of getting a podium. Why change things?

[Nikolas Garth]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
I honestly don't think Michael would allow Jax, DC or Hakk into the team - why risk it?

It's not up to Michael, it's up to Luca di Montezumelo.

[Eau Red]

Originally posted by RJL
[B]
BTW, Baddog, IMO Fisi would be waaay better than Rube. In fact, I'd say that Button would prob'ly be better than Rube, also Truly, Kimi, Alesi, Jos, etc, etc./B]

Remember that when RB was signed by Ferrari, in mid 1999, he was one of the guys on that list of supposed future WDCs. He was leading races in a Stewart and beating Johnny Herbert like an egg-sucking dog, and well dammit if that guy just had a REALLY good car he'd probably pull a Mika Hakkinen and win everything.

As it turned out, the Stewart was better than people thought, Herbert thinks he had unequal equipment, and RB has now been crossed off the list of Next Sennas. But just imagine if Trulli or Fisi had that car, right.

[Ricardo F1]

"It's not up to Michael, it's up to Luca di Montezumelo."

Were you serious?

Actually I'm just being a sarcastic git, yes technically it is up to Luca, but he's not going to sign another driver if Michael doesn't want them there, you don't want your prized asset upping and leaving because of that. Actually I heard rumors that Rubens was 'approved' by Michael .. .

[baddog]

gosh you heard rumours?

Ive heard rumours that michael wanted DC in the team in 96 instead of irv but DC opted for his mac contract.. Ive heard rumours that he did not object to villeneueve as a possible irv replacement instead of barrichello but villeneuve bottled it.. Ive heard rumours that michael pressed the team to hire alesi in 2000.. all real rumours, probably all bullshit just like yours.

Shaun

[Bruce]

Originally posted by baddog
but they woudlnt want to get into the sharktank with michael and thats a shame. the blame is on their timidity I think not on ms though! JV especially I beleive COULD have had the ferrari drive instead of rubens, and that woul dhave been simply great

Hmmm. I understood that Mclaren offered MS a position and he refused... could it be that he was unwilling to step into someone else's shark tank?

Face it. Anyone going to Ferrari now is de facto #2 - how would anyone - even Mika or JV compete with MS? He's been on the team since 1996, the team works essentially around him, he knows the car, the working structure and the personnel like the back of his hand and the car is largely built around him. He would have the immediate advantage and with one or two race wins, JT would be asking driver #2 to back off...

The only driver that will go to ferrari after Rubens is someone like Kimi or Nick, who won't be expected to challenge him immediately and could sit back and wait for him to retire and then look for results.

[Mrv]

I am not defending Rubens but Ferrari hung him to dry today. That strategy just backfired and what was supposed to happen just didn't because Mclaren blew by him. He should have been on a two stopper like Michael.

[baddog]

I think we can never know how much of the reason for mika/jv/dc etc not driving alongside michael is him/the team and how much is their fear of actually losing to the guy.. some of both I suspect.

he has EARNED that respect you talk about in the team though. as a nice for instance, last night on tv we were subjected to a 'dc makes a crap brakepedal' stunt shot at the mclarne factory. what shocked me was that he was this strange celebrity visitng the factory, noone knew him, most of them had never seen him in the flesh.. and he had NO idea what was involved in making a car till he got there. the factory manager talked about how it was amazing to have a driver in the factory instead of seeing him on tv. Can you imagine MS being like that in maranello? of course not he is a regular visitor who knows what goes on and who is who and what they do to make his car. you cant buy the personal team support that gets you.

this is to me where the advantage lies.. not in direct management bias. if they hired jv then no way he would be anyones lapdog.. but its doubtful he could integrate into the team as well and thats where the little bits that add up to the #1-#2 thing come from.

Shaun

[Scoop]

Originally posted by Bruce


The only driver that will go to ferrari after Rubens is someone like Kimi or Nick, who won't be expected to challenge him immediately and could sit back and wait for him to retire and then look for results.

true and hope this happens soon as possible. particularly kimi. a level headed chap that he seems to be right now.

[Nikolas Garth]

Originally posted by Bruce
Hmmm. I understood that Mclaren offered MS a position and he refused... could it be that he was unwilling to step into someone else's shark tank?

Who knows if MS was using a potential Mac drive, to get more favourable contract outcome with Ferrari??

MS was in a difficult position, in that if he left Ferrari before they won a WDC, it would have tarnished his reputation somewhat, in that critics could say he failed at Ferrari. When MS gets his 2nd WDC with Ferrari and Ferrari wins their 3rd WCC in a row, the historians will say that the "Schumacher Era" at Ferrari, was an overwhelming success.

By staying and getting that WDC, he goes into the history books, and does something that Mansell and Prost failed to achieve.

Plus I am sure weighing very heavily on his mind, was wRONg's "winning" personality to put up with.;)

[bira]

Michael Schumacher and McLaren negotiated very briefly. Mercedes were willing to pick up the tab for his salary, and were offering him more than he was getting at Ferrari but it all fell through on the fact that McLaren have a stern policy of not allowing their drivers to have their own sponsors and merchandising deal. The negotiations never actually went beyond initial talks, really.

[Billy]

After the negotiations between Mercedes and Schumacher, Haug said "we kept in touch constantly, but we soon realised that the marriage of the century was not going to happen".

[Jecko]

Rubens who?

[KinetiK]

Originally posted by Sammyed
Agree with that, but you know..sometimes s**t happens, and he´s not doing it so bad at the general..

Yeah, but conversely he could be doing a LOT better in general... correct? Rubens isn't a bad guy, he's a decent racer too, but he's not fast enough to get Ferrari a 6 pointer in 3 consecutive races, since Austria. In fact, that absolutely corresponds to the last time I remembering thinking, "Rubens isn't actually that slow..." Maybe he's having a bad time in Real Life. I dunno. Still, there's better out there... better guys who also were available next year. I think Alesi (despite Todd's misgivings) would be a good partner for MS at Ferrari. Bring home the only '95 winner Ferrari had (and a natural Tifosi as it were) and partner him with with MS, the Saviour.

[Billy]

Originally posted by baddog
he has EARNED that respect you talk about in the team though. as a nice for instance, last night on tv we were subjected to a 'dc makes a crap brakepedal' stunt shot at the mclarne factory. what shocked me was that he was this strange celebrity visitng the factory, noone knew him, most of them had never seen him in the flesh.. and he had NO idea what was involved in making a car till he got there. the factory manager talked about how it was amazing to have a driver in the factory instead of seeing him on tv. Can you imagine MS being like that in maranello? of course not he is a regular visitor who knows what goes on and who is who and what they do to make his car. you cant buy the personal team support that gets you.

Senna had a similar way. Trevor Foster from Lotus said on his first day with the team

Senna went round the factory introducing himself to everybody and making very clear to people what he expected from them. One particular department was gearboxes. The conversation he had with one of the personnel there: "do you realise that if you screw up more than so many times, and I don't finish races, then under my contract I am free to go."

[KinetiK]

Originally posted by baddog
I think we can never know how much of the reason for mika/jv/dc etc not driving alongside michael is him/the team and how much is their fear of actually losing to the guy.. some of both I suspect.

he has EARNED that respect you talk about in the team though. as a nice for instance, last night on tv we were subjected to a 'dc makes a crap brakepedal' stunt shot at the mclarne factory. what shocked me was that he was this strange celebrity visitng the factory, noone knew him, most of them had never seen him in the flesh.. and he had NO idea what was involved in making a car till he got there. the factory manager talked about how it was amazing to have a driver in the factory instead of seeing him on tv. Can you imagine MS being like that in maranello? of course not he is a regular visitor who knows what goes on and who is who and what they do to make his car. you cant buy the personal team support that gets you.

this is to me where the advantage lies.. not in direct management bias. if they hired jv then no way he would be anyones lapdog.. but its doubtful he could integrate into the team as well and thats where the little bits that add up to the #1-#2 thing come from.

Shaun

Seriously?? Anymore stories of this sort of thing. I'm going to ask my contact guy there at Benetton about the history of drivers and their contact with the factory. That sounds like a great story! Thanks for that baddog!

[bira]

I was at the Ferrari factory one day, when Schumacher was testing at Fiorano. I saw Schumacher have lunch with the rest of the workers and nearly chocked on an olive. For some reason, I expected him to be eating in solitude at Enzo's house on the track, or in the Cavalino restaurant across the street. But I was told it's not something rare or unique: all Ferrari drivers previously mingled very well within the factory and among the mechanics. You can't have these guys working for you and not do that. It's like a necessity in Ferrari.

[Rene]

I think that when we talk about partnering with MS, or joining any team with an established driver who has been with the team for quite awhile (like Fisi at Benetton) is that ego's come into it more than anything else....all F1 drivers want to be the centers of their teams, and none of them want to risk joining a team where they might not be the number one...we have heard from both Jenson Button and JPM that they had fears they weren't getting the same support from their teams as the established driver was....

[LeTurc]

Michael doesnt want a fast driver? For those who forgot MS didnt want either irvine or rubens as teammate , Ferrari did. Loosers.

[baddog]

it seems like a fairly significant disadvantage in the ron dennis/ mclaren approach of basically setting up a corporate entity to produce racing cars, with 'channels' and 'departments' that connect via the management with no sense of a team.. it seems like any other factory.

I never realised how far down this road they had gone until I saw this segment about dc.. I was honestly shocked that the mclaren factory manager saw DC as a celebrity visitor!

Shaun

[Billy]

what has Jenson said about this lack of support?

The main thing is he can't get a good setup on the car. They have tried everything, but there is nothing he is comfortable with. Obviously the Williams engineers are much better, as they managed to get much more out of Jenson. It's not a question of Fisichella being favoured, it's more that he has 4 years with the team, and can drive a bad car very well. Briatore says Fisichella doesn't need to work his way into things, he can just go out there and be very quick immediately, whereas Jenson will steadily work towards improvements.

[LeTurc]

MS is way ahead of anybody else since the tc introduction. Interesting.

[Billy]

Originally posted by LeTurc
MS is way ahead of anybody else since the tc introduction. Interesting.

Beaten for pace by Hakkinen in Spain, Ferrari beaten by Coulthard in Austria, Coulthard on pole in Monaco, Ralf beats him in Canada, JPM and Ralf set much faster laps than MS at Nurburgring ...

[ZZMS]

Originally posted by Billy
Beaten for pace by Hakkinen in Spain, Ferrari beaten by Coulthard in Austria, Coulthard on pole in Monaco, Ralf beats him in Canada, JPM and Ralf set much faster laps than MS at Nurburgring ...

oh my God, i didn't notice MS sucks that much!!!!!!;)

I guess LeTurc meant qualifying...

[LeTurc]

Billy look at the gap with Barrichello after tc. Qualifying ? If Hakkinen was driving for williams this year ms shouldnt get a pole i am sure.

In Spain he was controlling easily Mika until the last set.
In Austria theStupid cost him the race.
Canada and Europe showed us clearly williams is the best car. Assuming you are mature enough to accept ralf is not MS caliber driver.

Anyway i dont think the season is over. Ralf has a better chance than DC if he doesnt do rookie mistakes like this race.

[CA]

Originally posted by baddog
I think we can never know how much of the reason for mika/jv/dc etc not driving alongside michael is him/the team and how much is their fear of actually losing to the guy.. some of both I suspect.

he has EARNED that respect you talk about in the team though. as a nice for instance, last night on tv we were subjected to a 'dc makes a crap brakepedal' stunt shot at the mclarne factory. what shocked me was that he was this strange celebrity visitng the factory, noone knew him, most of them had never seen him in the flesh.. and he had NO idea what was involved in making a car till he got there. the factory manager talked about how it was amazing to have a driver in the factory instead of seeing him on tv. Can you imagine MS being like that in maranello? of course not he is a regular visitor who knows what goes on and who is who and what they do to make his car. you cant buy the personal team support that gets you.

this is to me where the advantage lies.. not in direct management bias. if they hired jv then no way he would be anyones lapdog.. but its doubtful he could integrate into the team as well and thats where the little bits that add up to the #1-#2 thing come from.

Shaun

That DC piece was like a really bad infomercial, did he realise what a git he looked like doing it, I was throwing things at the television, I wish they'd play a replay of qualifing rather than these PR crap items, I wonder if McLaren pay them to screen these things.

[Billy]

Originally posted by LeTurc
Billy look at the gap with Barrichello after tc. Qualifying ?

Michael predicted he would be further ahead of his team mate after TC was introduced, because the potential of the car is greater, and he thinks he is better at getting the maximum out of the car.

If Hakkinen was driving for williams this year ms shouldnt get a pole i am sure.

What is it, 4 races in a row where DC has outqualified MH?

Assuming you are mature enough to accept ralf is not MS caliber driver.

In 1999 and 2000 he was the best driver not in a Ferrari or McLaren. His qualifying record has been consistently fast, if not brilliant, but his race pace has always been there. He just won't go away. How else did he keep ahead of DC at Spa last year?

Anyway i dont think the season is over. Ralf has a better chance than DC if he doesnt do rookie mistakes like this race.

When he crossed the white line, he was looking in his mirrors, not at the track ahead, he was using his mirrors to see where the danger was coming from. It wasn't a big mistake, and his motivation was correct. He was driving safely, just not really looking where he was going!

[RJL]

Originally posted by Eau Red


Remember that when RB was signed by Ferrari, in mid 1999, he was one of the guys on that list of supposed future WDCs. He was leading races in a Stewart and beating Johnny Herbert like an egg-sucking dog, and well dammit if that guy just had a REALLY good car he'd probably pull a Mika Hakkinen and win everything.

As it turned out, the Stewart was better than people thought, Herbert thinks he had unequal equipment, and RB has now been crossed off the list of Next Sennas. But just imagine if Trulli or Fisi had that car, right.

Well, lemme just make it clear that I never considered the Rube on that list of potential WDC's. He's way too weak psychologically IMO (entirely too much weeping). He got seriously rattled at Jordan with the arrival of Eddie Ervine and ran off to Stewart where they could only really get one car working decently at a time. And beating up on poor old johny herbert, particularly near the end of his none too memorable career is nothing to write home about. Herbert was beaten by many teamates over the years and most of them didn't go on to be WDC's, did they?

[Ricardo F1]

LeTruc : Michael doesnt want a fast driver? For those who forgot MS didnt want either irvine or rubens as teammate , Ferrari id. Loosers.

Can you actually back that up with any evidence?? Why would Michael not want Irv or RB - it's seemingly good proof that he doesn't want a fast driver alongside him . . .

[ebe]

Sure RB's performance was somehow disappointing the last race.

But looking back in Austria, Monaco, and even Canada (until the accident) he was quick. We should comment his performance not only on the result of the Ring.

And who should be hired by Ferrari ? Or should have been hired for 2002 ?

Trulli, Fisicella are modern versions of Alesi. Neverending talents that never prooved to be true.
Raikkonen is under contract, so is Button.

So the Reds went for stability in the team and there they are ...

[KinetiK]

Originally posted by ebe
Sure RB's performance was somehow disappointing the last race.

But looking back in Austria, Monaco, and even Canada (until the accident) he was quick. We should comment his performance not only on the result of the Ring.

And who should be hired by Ferrari ? Or should have been hired for 2002 ?

Trulli, Fisicella are modern versions of Alesi. Neverending talents that never prooved to be true.
Raikkonen is under contract, so is Button.

So the Reds went for stability in the team and there they are ...

Trulli and Fisichella and Alesi would all wipe the floor with Rubens I'm afraid.

Yes, even Alesi.