57 replies to this topic

[Chris Skepis]

Does anybody knows where exactly these accidents took place ?
(the name of curve/corner/kink/straight)
Peter Collins- Nurburgring 1958
Carel de Beauford- Nurburgring 1964
Bob Anderson- Silverstone 1967
Trevor Taylor/ Willy Mairesse- Spa 1962
Gerrard Mitter- Nurburgring 1969
Bruce McLaren- Goodwood 1970
Piers Courage- Zandvoort 1970
François Cevert- Watkins Glenn 1973
Peter Revson- Kyalami 1974
Niki Lauda- Nurburgring 1976
Jo Siffert- Brands Hatch 1971
Jo Schlesser- Rouen 1968
Mike Parkes- Spa 1967
Graham Hill- Watkins Glenn 1969

[FLB]

Originally posted by Chris Skepis
Does anybody knows where exactly these accidents took place ?
(the name of curve/corner/kink/straight)

Trevor Taylor/ Willy Mairesse- Spa 1962 - Burnenville
Gerhard Mitter- Nürbürgring 1969 - Flügplatz
Bruce McLaren- Goodwood 1970 - Just after the left-hand kink on the main straight
Peter Revson- Kyalami 1974 - Barbecue Bend
Niki Lauda- Nürbürgring 1976- Bergwerk
Jo Schlesser- Rouen 1968 - Going into Six Frères

[Buford]

Graham Hill flipped on the grass to the left along the straight leading to the right hand loop at the end that now has the Nascar chicane before it, but didn't then. He was thrown out and broke his legs badly.

Cevert was killed at the top of the esses when he hit armco on both sides and went over the top on the left, apparently wiping out his head and upper body from descriptions I have read.

Revson was killed at the bottom of the hill at the end of the long straight.

[David M. Kane]

According to the ambulance driver at Watkins Glen at the time, Cevert had thrown up in his helmet as he was coming up the hill onto the front straight. This blinded him. At the top of the hill you enter a tunnel of blue armco that seems 6-8 feet tall, it then tapers off. Francois hit on the right, bounced off it onto the left armco unside down landing on the armco causing the properly described injuries. I arrived by foot seconds later as Jody Scheckter was returning to his car in dispair. Hulme started to slow down and he just waved him on signaling that it was hopeless.

I then walked back to the pits which was about 1/2 mile away.
When I got there James Hunt was shaking pretty bad and smoking
a cigarette very heavily. I can't remember what it was we were discussing, but we were both trying to get his mind off the horrors of the accident and trying to get our acts back together.

How he got back in the car that day is beyond my imagination.

[Barry Lake]

Chris

You have listed here some crashes which incurred serious injuries, rather than only fatal crashes.

Does this mean you are recording such occurrences?

The Nostalgia Forum has done a good job of recording fatal crashes, but I also think it is historically important to know when drivers suffered injuries that either interrupted their career, ended their career, or could have had an effect on future performance.

If you are recording such a list, I would like to know if you have it on a web site, because this can be very important information.

[Barry Boor]

May I respectfully query one of FLB's list from above. I always thought that the Taylor/Mairesse collision was somewhere on the climb up from Stavelot back to La Source. In fact, it would be somewhere near the Blanchimont curve. Wasn't it?

BTW, Jo Siffert's accident started as he approached Hawthorn's Bend and ended up fairly close to that corner.

Buford - I thought Revvie's crash was at the 2nd corner at Kyalami.

Piers Courage's crash was somewhere along the 'bottom' of the Zandvoort circuit as you look at the map. I have always imagined it happened on that left/right ess after the Schievlak corner.

[mat1]

Garel Godin de Beaufort - immediately after bergwerk, I believe.
Niki Lauda: after the left hand kink between Ex-Muhle and bergwerk (and not Bergwerk itself).
Piers Courage: I believe the first lefthand klink after Scheivlak, but I'm not sure, it coulde be the next one (aright hander).

mat

[Leif Snellman]

Peter Collins - Pflanzgarten
Niki Lauda - Unnamed left hander just before Bergwerk

[jk]

I'd has been great to read this. I race alot of GPL, so i know all the corners you mention. I don't like, but you know what i mean, to know when i'm coming up for a corner: This is where Lauda crashed etc.
Leif, Pflanzgarten is a very large section of the 'Ring. Could you please specify it?

Also the left kink before Bergwerk has unofficiel bieng named the Lauda Curve.

[Kpy]

Originally posted by jk
Pflanzgarten is a very large section of the 'Ring. Could you please specify it?

Approaching the rising right-hander at the start of Pflanzgarten Collins pulled out as if to dive inside Brooks' Vanwall. He dropped back as if he'd thought better of it, lost control for whatever reason and the Ferrari snapped sideways into the bank. He was helicoptered to hospital, but to no avail.

[Buford]

Buford - I thought Revvie's crash was at the 2nd corner at Kyalami.

I could be wrong. I recall seeing a newspaper picture of Graham Hill standing over the car and my recollection of reading about it at the time was it happened under braking at the end of the long straight. But I am not positive.

[mat1]

About the Courage-crash: is it the same place as the crash of Roger Williamson 3 years later? I beleive Williamson was one kink further.

mat

[Vitesse2]

Courage: just some additional info - Brabham and Rodriguez both crashed at the same place in practice. Stewart and others asked for wire fencing to be replaced with Armco but the organizers said this was impossible due to sandy soil. Had Armco been installed, Courage might have survived ...

Schlesser: Mike Lang says "on the approach to Nouveau Monde"

Revson: Barry and Buford are both right, as Barbecue was the second corner at Kyalami - Revvie actually went through the barrier on the outside of the bend. And immediately after that, they replaced the barrier with catch fencing ....

And coincidence: McLaren and Anderson both hit Marshals' posts in testing accidents, but I don't know where at Silverstone Anderson was killed.

[mat1]

Re Schlesser: I have once seen a photo of the Schlesser-accident, but I cannot remember where. Anyway, it seems to be between (in driving direction) inbetween a right- and a left-hander. if it is in the approach to Nouveau Monde, than that would mean before that last (lefthand-) kink before the hairpin.

mat

[LittleChris]

Bob Anderson crashed at Becketts.

Barry Boor is correct about Taylor / Mairesse. They clipped each other exiting the final left hander at Blanchimont and ended up at the right before Clubhouse ( Bus Stop Chicane as it is now). Flb I believe that you were thinking of the Willy Mairesse / Chris Bristow shunt at Burnenville in 1960.

Courage's shunt happened at the right hand part of the esses after Schievlak ( Hondenvlak ?? ) where the Scheckter Chicane appeared in 1979. It's the same point at which Roger Williamson went off three years later, but Willimasons March ended up further down the road at East Tunnel.

Schlessers car ended up on the exit of Six Freres after the engine apparently cut out mid corner and he lost drive and thus grip.

Mike Parkes crashed on the entry to Blanchimont after Jackie Stewarts BRM seemingly dumped a load of oil from it's catch tank in front of him. Parkes was actually thrown out of the car and I believe ended someway up the road

[mat1]

Originally posted by LittleChris


Courage's shunt happened at the right hand part of the esses after Schievlak ( Hondenvlak ?? ) where the Scheckter Chicane appeared in 1979. It's the same point at which Roger Williamson went off three years later, but Willimasons March ended up further down the road at East Tunnel.

As a matter of fact, Williamson ended up much further as a result of the armco installed after the Courage accident.

mat

[LittleChris]

Mat1,

If you look at the film of the accident, Williamsons car ends upside down on the inside of the track at the turn in point for East Tunnel. What is ironic is something posted earlier in the thread about Brabham & Rodriguez demanding armco being put in at Hondenvlak before Courage's accident. It was the armco installed after this that collapsed due to the soil & launched Williamsons March. He was still alive after that, but it was the unattended fire that killed him. As regards Courages accident, I've heard that it was a post from the fencing that detached a wheel and suspension parts which came back into the cockpit and killed him, similar to Senna. So hopefully he didn't suffer from the fire itself.

Chris

[FLB]

Barry, my apologies. Little Chris, you are absolutely correct, of course, I got my wires crossed. I was thinking about 1960.

In Williamson's case, Purley said afterwards that he had seen him move. He had indeed been hit in the head and suffered from a dislocated shoulder as well. The autopsy reported that he died from inhaling hot gases.

[Kpy]

Originally posted by LittleChris
Bob Anderson crashed at Becketts.

I'm quite happy to be corrected, but I think Anderson's car turned sharp left on the Hangar straight and struck an un-manned marshall's post 14/08/67.

Don't remember anyone ever being killed at Becket's, although Purley came close before my eyes in '77 - a début for so many: G Villeneuve, Tambay & Renault turbo.

[LittleChris]

KP,

Come to think of it, you're probably right. I've seen it quoted as Becketts, but also as having occurred in the area of Becketts. My assumption was that he lost it on the exit of Maggotts and hit the wall at Becketts.

Chris

[Chris Skepis]

Barry Lake
I'm not recording these accidents for web site purposes. I only wanted to know where the accidents occured, just for my own record. But in any case I always wanted to make a very comprehensive Grand Prix web site, the sort of lap by lap information with lap by lap photos, y'know, the most complete Grand Prix guide ever. I know it will be an almost impossible task, but I really want to do the most complete info site, with all the technical info, lap description, behind the scenes, the whole lot,
whithout leaving absolutely nothing behind. I know I must be crazy and I know also it will take a life time to collect every possible information about every World Championship Grand Prix race. But if I could find more people interested in joining forces.....who knows...
it could be reality.......any one interested ????

[Keith Young]

What is the URL of this site you are making? I would be glad to help you with what I can.

[Chris Skepis]

Rough Wood
I am not making it yet. I don't want to start it by my ownself. It will be a hell of work to do alone. I think it will be more or less like making a new track for GPL. You just can't do it on your own. It must be a team effort. If I do it by myself I will probably finish it in 20 years or more. My idea is to make the ultimate site. With all the information available in the world. Compiling all the possible information on one site, with every move made by every team, driver,manufacturer,private entrant, race organizer, CSI, FISA, FIA, GPDA, just about everything. Once again, I know it sounds crazy, but I am a crazy lad. And I am crazy about Grand Prix Motor Racing. The thing is, I ain't crazy enough to start this on my own. I'm pretty sure that I'll never finish if I work alone. But if I could find some help from other Grand Prix nuts, then I think there's a good chance in making it reality.
Just to add a curious issue to this thread. I think the most likeble place for disaster at Monaco is the notorious Chicane.
Alberto Ascari 1955
Moss/Hawthorn/Collins 1957
Innes Ireland 1963
Paul Hawkins 1965
Graham Hill/Bob Anderson 1965 ( this one wasn't really an accident, but almost took Hill off the race)
Lorenzo Bandini 1967
and even on the Grand Prix film Pete Aron/Scott Stoddard 1966
Prost 1982
I'm sure there is more but I can't remember right now.
Ah, I almost forgot to ask. Which part of Zandvoort occured the famous Regazzoni/Lambert accident ??
And where did Jo Bonnier crash at Le Mans 1972 ?

[Barry Boor]

Jo Bonnier's crash happened at the little right-hand curve just before the left-hander at Indianapolis. This is one I can be 100% sure of because when we were down at Le Mans testing the Connew in July 1972, Francois Migault took us to the spot on our way back to the pit area after a very nice lunch in a restaurant near Mulsanne corner.

This sad event was not caused by the severity of the curve but rather because of a collision with a GT Ferrari that launched Jo's little Lola up and into the trees.

[Barry Lake]

Chris

Yes, I would agree that "a little bit mad" probably describes someone with ambitions like yours. But then the description applies to almost everyone on TNF to some degree, doesn't it?

Regarding your "complete" web site on F1, I imagine that includes such things as lap times and pit stop times.

I don't have any myself, but I know that the regular F1 journalists receive (and many/most/all throw out), huge books with every lap time, sector time, top speeds etc at the end of each year.

I have often thought, but never got around to mentioning, that someone a little bit mad on TNF should be trying to track these down so they can be recorded somewhere for posterity.

Also, as many here will know, Gale Force F1 has some interesting statistics that should be recorded somewhere safe. They have pit stop times (from start of pit row to end of pit row), drivers' fastest race laps etc.

Hopefully someone a little bit madder than I am can take up the challenge of recording this information for the use of future historians.

I already am mad enough to do this sort of thing for Australian motor sport - and the longer I am doing it, the crazier I get.

I hope they let me out of the asylum occasionally (chaperoned, of course), so I can still access my library and the various public libraries...

[jk]

Originally posted by Chris Skepis
Rough Wood
I'm sure there is more but I can't remember right now.

I'm sure John Nielsen had a hard crash at the chicane in F3 in the 80's. When he returned, he won his first race after that...

[LittleChris]

Jk,

It was 1984. He won the Macau F3 race at the end of the year just beating Stefan Johansson who was having a one off race.

Chris

[pancho]

Originally posted by LittleChris
Bob Anderson crashed at Becketts.

Barry Boor is correct about Taylor / Mairesse. They clipped each other exiting the final left hander at Blanchimont and ended up at the right before Clubhouse ( Bus Stop Chicane as it is now). Flb I believe that you were thinking of the Willy Mairesse / Chris Bristow shunt at Burnenville in 1960.

Courage's shunt happened at the right hand part of the esses after Schievlak ( Hondenvlak ?? ) where the Scheckter Chicane appeared in 1979. It's the same point at which Roger Williamson went off three years later, but Willimasons March ended up further down the road at East Tunnel.

Schlessers car ended up on the exit of Six Freres after the engine apparently cut out mid corner and he lost drive and thus grip.

Mike Parkes crashed on the entry to Blanchimont after Jackie Stewarts BRM seemingly dumped a load of oil from it's catch tank in front of him. Parkes was actually thrown out of the car and I believe ended someway up the road

The Mike Parkes accident ended the career of one of Britains most outstanding talents. He crashed on the double apex left hander at Blanchimont - much the same corner then as it is now. The car went off on oil dumped from JYS's breathers and barrel-rolled several times. Unfortunately, Mikes tall frame prevented him from being thrown out immediately, and it took several rolls to dispatch him, causing his terrible leg injuries. In Mark Kahns book 'The day I died', there is an account of the accident by Mike himself, along with a photo of Mike lying besides the upturned Ferrari, his right leg crossed over the left and his feet pointing in completely the wrong direction. Quite the most unpleasant thing I have ever seen.

[Racer.Demon]

Courage: definitely Hondenvlak.
Beaufort: unnamed corner in the twiddly bit between Metzgesfeld and Wehrseifen.

[Chico Landi]

And where exactly was Achille Varzi's fatal accident in Bremgarten in 1948?

[Vitesse2]

Varzi was killed near the Jordenrampe curve when his Alfa 158 skidded in the wet and overturned.

[LittleChris]

Vitesse,

Was Christian Kautz's accident in the same area ?

Chris

[Vitesse2]

Sorry Chris, no idea at all. Anyone?

[mat1]

Originally posted by Racer.Demon
Beaufort: unnamed corner in the twiddly bit between Metzgesfeld and Wehrseifen.

I think the fast downhill righthander (sometimes called the miss-hit-miss, because the line seems to be to miss the first curb, hit the second and then miss the third)before Wehrseifen. is that correct?

I believe I have once seen a photo of the wreck of Beaufort's Porsche, hanging in the trees to the left of the track. This would imply a righthander, with a decline to the left. THis is consistent with bergwerk, but also with the corner mentioned. And the righthander before Wehrseifen is much faster and dangerous than Bergwerk.

mat

[Racer.Demon]

Originally posted by mat1
I believe I have once seen a photo of the wreck of Beaufort's Porsche, hanging in the trees to the left of the track. This would imply a righthander, with a decline to the left. THis is consistent with bergwerk, but also with the corner mentioned. And the righthander before Wehrseifen is much faster and dangerous than Bergwerk.

Mat: that's the one.

Does anyone know whether this corner has a name?

[mat1]

Originally posted by Racer.Demon

Does anyone know whether this corner has a name?

Now that i think of it: sometimes this corner is referred as "nach Kallenhard" (after kallenhard) (Kallenhard being the sharp righthander after metzgesfeld), but in fact this refers to the whole part inbetween Kallenhard and Wehrseifen, including the left-right combination before the miss/hit/miss.

mat

[jk]

Originally posted by mat1

I believe I have once seen a photo of the wreck of Beaufort's Porsche, hanging in the trees to the left of the track. This would imply a righthander, with a decline to the left. THis is consistent with bergwerk, but also with the corner mentioned. And the righthander before Wehrseifen is much faster and dangerous than Bergwerk.
mat

OK, i'm lost here, i'll try to descripe the section between Kallenhard and Ex-Mühle, so you can tell me were it was in my description:

Out of the slight righthander after Metzgesfeld, into the sharp righthander at Kallenhardt, into the faast right/left combination. Brake into the Miss-Hit-Miss, accelerete and brake into a slight right bend, into the sharp lefthander at Wehrseifen. Into a flat righthander and into a fast, downhill righthander and braking into the sharp lefthander into Ex-Muhle.

As i see it we have 3 righthanders were a car could crash in this section, first Kallenhardt, the second being Miss-Hit-Miss and the third the corner before the "hairpin" just before Ex-Muhle. Which one is it? I have seen "Between Metzgesfeld and Wehrseifen", which in my opinion will say Kallenhardt or Miss-Hit-Miss.

[Chris Skepis]

Well, just to carry on with the Nurburgring subject,
where did Jim Clark crash and turn over in 1966 ?

[LittleChris]

Bit of a tricky one this, cos I've also heard that the accident happened around the area of Bergwerk. However assuming that it did happen round Wehrseifen, I'd assume it was much the same place that Onofre Marimon went off. What makes me think other wise is that on the outside of that series of corners, it's a fairly sheer drop into fields rather than trees. Basically dunno !

[Chris Skepis]

I've got a magazine that says it was 'around' Bergwerk but the word 'around' sounds too vague.

[mat1]

jk: the corner I meant is miss-hit-miss.

LittleChris: you say miss-hit-miss is improbable, because there are no trees there. I believe there used to be trees over there, until the rework of 1970.

mat

[C F Eick]

Originally posted by FLB

Gerhard Mitter- Nürbürgring 1969 - Flügplatz

Actually, I think Mitter had his accident at Schwedenkreuz. After Flugplatz, the track turns slightly left and drops sharply, straightens out leading to a small crest, where the track once more turns left. I think it was at the crest that Mitter lost control and went off. The ditch at the right side of this part of the track was called "911er Graben" (911 ditch) as the Porsche model's rear end tended to get very light and unstable over the crest.

/Christian

[Rediscoveryx]

Did Marimon crash at the right hander at Kallenhard? If so, what caused the crash?

[Vitesse2]

Cyril Posthumus in his German Grand Prix book says Marimon's Maserati "left the road just before the Wehrseifen bridge, burst through the hedge, plunged down a steep slope and struck a tree"

[Leif Snellman]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Cyril Posthumus in his German Grand Prix book says Marimon's Maserati "left the road just before the Wehrseifen bridge burst through the hedge

That's confirmed by Neubauer: "Dort... kurz vor der Steinbrücke am Wehrseifen klafft eine zwei Meter breite Lücke in der Dornenhecke..." (There... just before the Wehrseifen stone bridge was a two meter wide gap in the thorne hedge)

[mat1]

Originally posted by Leif Snellman
That's confirmed by Neubauer: "Dort... kurz vor der Steinbrücke am Wehrseifen klafft eine zwei Meter breite Lücke in der Dornenhecke..." (There... just before the Wehrseifen stone bridge was a two meter wide gap in the thorne hedge)

that would have been almost the same spot as Carel Godin de Beaufort.

mat1

[Udo K.]

I think I have to join this thread as far as the Nürburgring is concerned and add some light to the accidents of Mitter, Lauda, de Beaufort and Clark (66) as well as the "geography".

de Beauforts accident, to all reports I have seen and to my personal knowledge took place AFTER the Breidscheid bridge leading into the sharp right-hander called Ex-Mühle. Definetely not before the bridge. The section before the bridge is Wehrseifen, which is not only the sharp left-hander but also the folowing part of tze track leading to Breidscheid. The right-hander following Kallenhard has no official name, but here as well the name of Kallenhard applies for the whole section before Werhrseifen.

Gerhard Mitter was killed at the Schwedenkreuz, that's for sure. I was (un)happy enough to be at the Ring on that Saturday afternoon.

Niki Lauda's accidents was at KM 10.4 BETWEEN Ex-Mühle and Bergwerk (never heard of this unofficial name "Niki Lauda Kurve" - that's rubbish).

Finally Jim Clark's accident during the 1966 Grand Prix took place at the Aremberg which is a sharp right-hander following the Schwedenkreuz section and preceeding the Fuchsröhre.

[mat1]

Originally posted by Udo K.


de Beauforts accident, to all reports I have seen and to my personal knowledge took place AFTER the Breidscheid bridge leading into the sharp right-hander called Ex-Mühle. Definetely not before the bridge.

So there are now 3 possible locations: after bergwerk, which is almost surely not correct, the so called miss-hit-miss, sometimes also named rather vaguely nach Kallenhard (the fast right hander before Wehrseifen, and Ex-Muhle.

The photo I've seen (mentioned early) can be nach Kallenhard but also Ex-Muhle. because the cars used to jump at Ex-muhle this is also very possible.

Why do you think it is Ex-Muhle, Udo?

Originally posted by Udo K.

Niki Lauda's accidents was at KM 10.4 BETWEEN Ex-Mühle and Bergwerk (never heard of this unofficial name "Niki Lauda Kurve" - that's rubbish).

Well, nowadays it is usually referred in as the Lauda-Kurve. Of course it is not the official name.

mat1

[paulhooft]

I have heard that the Accident of Chris Lambert was at Tunnel Oost, Zandvoort,
and was told that it was due too to say it softly...
over enthusiastic.. driving by Clay R??
some people are getting very angry still today
if they talk about it
I saw the race back in the sixties,
but was standing at Tarzan Bocht then
Paul Hooft

[Slyder]

Can someone also explain in detail what happened to David Purley in Silverstone?

All I know is that he crashed pretty hard and nearly died on that one.