41 replies to this topic

[SpaRCo]

I cant believe some of the people on this board who say that Hakkinen is better than schumacher and that Shuey is slow,what a joke.

The only reason we are even talking about hakkinen is because of the mclaren and newy.

Hakkinen proved that without them he could not fight for race victory let alone WIN.

Even if he wins 5wcs,he shouldnt be ranked among the greats,statistics are not the complete picture,just look at damon hill,he has one of the highest winning % ever but he wasnt much more that second rate.

In fact I consider it a modern day tradegy that hill won 22 gps and Alesi won only 1.
If you look at all the GREAT drivers it is clear that they were on another level than the others.Senna,Prost,clark,etc
One big thing to remember is that these greats were NEVER beaten in racing conditions by a second rate teammate,the only teammates to best them in racing conditions were other greats.
For example the only teammate ever to beat Senna in races was prost.

Senna was never beaten by berger in races,taking mechanical failure into account.

Qualifying doesnt mean much because its only 1 lap and everyone has a off lap or whatever
but its been proven that over a race distance the greats cant be beaten.

Now we come to Shuey,not only has he not been beaten ,no teammate has even come CLOSE to beating him in a race.

Hakkinen on the other hand was bested by johnney herbert at lotus,in qualifying and in races most of the time.

Shuey LAPPED herbert almost every race in 95,and dont try to say lack of testing was the cause of that for johney,not a whole lap....he was just blown away.

In fact johney has been getting blown away for years by pretty much everyteam mate hes had.That takes the gloss of hakkinen for me.

Even now Coulthard beats hakkinen in races sometimes,spa 99,and a number of times in 98,like monza when he was blowing him away until his motor blew.Imagine coulthard blowing away prost senna or shuey in a race,It would of never had happened,

And for everyone saying shuey aint the fastest......In his F1 career hes only been outqualifyed 6 times by a team mate,show me another driver who has a qualifying record that dominant.Hes the only driver who out qualifyes his teammates by whole seconds regularly,whys that u think???

If shuey had the mclaren he would be on pole every race.Senna would of had every pole in 88 if he had todays opposition,he would of won every race as well,just like shuey would if he had the 98 mclaren.

Ive seen prost lauda,and a host of other drivers and experts say that Shuey is on another level,and I think they know what they are on about.Most of you are just fooled by the speed of the mclaren,and cant see the real picture because you are biased and hard headed.

Same goes for villenueve,he was beaten by hill in 96,Prost at 35 years of age blew hill away in 93 without even trying,Imagine what he would of done to him if he had been in his prime and was trying,like he was against senna.In there only real race together
Senna lapped Hill after 50 laps.

Nigel mansell wasnt a great, but he was almost there,I really think that he was better then hakkinen or anyone else in F1 today,apart from shuey,,he could still do magical things in a car,like senna and prost,and pull out a win that made you think
"How the **** did he do that"
I havent seen anyone do that apart from Shuey in the past 6 years or so.

Its pretty clear there is only 1 great in F1 these days,and if you dont see it,you are blind and biased.

Im not a big shuey fan btw,so im not biased.I think he is about as good as prost was,in his prime.

[Mr. Salty]

***sound of guns being loaded across the board as the war begins again***

[SpaRCo]

LOL,The board was getting a bit boring.

[This message has been edited by SpaRCo (edited 03-08-2000).]

[Grano]

Phuleeese! Haven´t we have enough of pathetic **** like this posted on the BB already?

[RaggedEdge]

SpaRCo,

It is generally acknoledged that Hakkinen is at least the second best current driver, Schumacher usually ranked the best one.

If Hakkinen, being the second best there is, is such a bad driver, why the hell the supposedly best driver Schumacher does not win every time, every race, every championship if his competition is so utterly bad?

If you trash down Hakkinen, you also trash down Schumacher, that is a sad fact.

You say we are living in the period of weakest driver quality in the F1 history. I disagree with you.

[Smooth]

SpaRCo: - Duck!!!!!

[Todd]

Grano,

Yeah, but it was all by Ragged Edge and from the other perspective.

------------------
Forza Michael Schumacher,
Todd

[This message has been edited by Todd (edited 03-08-2000).]

[RedFever]

you got some valid points, but you are being unfair to Villeneuve. Hill won in 96, but JV was a rookie and knew no more than 3-4 circuits. Yet, he almost won his first GP ever (only a mechanical failure prevented him from humiliating Hill on his first GP ever) and won his 4th GP. These are excellent statistics, JV did very well.

[Toxicant]

Yes, it is kind of a waste of time to keep stating the same facts over and over

But give him a break, he is a new member.

Tox!

[The RedBaron]

To be honest although i'm a passionate Schuey fan- I have to admit since 1998 its been pretty damn close between those two. I do believe they are ahead of the others, last year I placed Villernerve along side the big two, but i question his temperament
nowadays.
If both were in the same car, I think Mika would outqualify Michael the majority of the time, but Schuey would accumulate more points ultimately over a season because he is better strategist and more calculating
in racing terms.

[RaggedEdge]

Todd, "People in glass houses..."

[SpaRCo]

Baron why do you say that hakkinen would out qualify SHUEY most of the time?

Because hes had the fastest car the last 2 years?

Oh and ragged edge where did i say hakkinen was a "bad" driver?

I said he wasnt a "great"
get your facts right before you post

[This message has been edited by SpaRCo (edited 03-08-2000).]

[Louis Mr. F1]

yawn, this is so boring, every once in a while, someone will post something like this.
Sparco, go back about 20-30 days, you will see similar post and all the discussion

[SpaRCo]

No thanks louis,My post has better and more valid content than the past discussions.

[Peeko]

Hehehe, Sparco. You're alright

[yahoo]

your all wrong.
JOS THE BOSS IS THE GREATEST DRIVER OF ALL TIME.

[Peeko]

Yeah, the greatest at cleaning out the gravel traps...

[The RedBaron]

Sparco - i hate to say it, but i think Hakkinan is a bit of a one-lap specialist....
anyway I prefer when Schuey doesn't start from pole, he seems to drive better being the "Hunter" then the "Hunted"

Oh please don't start with that Jos Ver"Graveltrappen" crap again!

[Fast One]

A love fest of the deluded...

[RaggedEdge]

SpaRCo,

So "Bad" < Hakkinen < "Great"

Thanks for your insight.

For me, just to give an example, perhaps at the moment:

Mansell <= Hakkinen <= Schumacher

I expect Hakkinen to move up in all-time rating since he will obviously win many more times in his remaining career, perhaps even more championships.

Could you slot in Hakkinen in your demanding definition of greatness?

[yr]

I really have to admire this faith that some
MS-fans has no matter what happens.

Let me put it this way, when Macs and Ferraris
have been equally good (in terms of both speed
and reliability) like Nurburgring 98, Suzuka 98,
Sepang 99 and Suzuka 99, Mika has won
three times out of four, MS being in pole in all
those races. Howcome a second-class overrated
driver like MH can win 75 % of these title-deciding
races while this "more-than-a-second-faster-
than-any-other-driver" wins only 25% of these
races with equal car ?? (yes, i counted Sepang
as a victory for MS despite the race result).
If MS really is so much better than MH, he should
have wiped the floor with MH in those races...
He didn´t.

SpaRCo quote:
"i´m not a big Schuey fan, so i´m not biased"
Hahahahaha, well then i´m not MH fan, so i´m
not biased either

[The Swerve]

Schumacher - better race craft

Hakkinen - better qualifier

That's why they make such good rivals.

QED

[FordPrefect]

lets just let them race

[molive]

I actually agree with SParCo.

MS is alone at the top, for now.

[RaggedEdge]

Originally posted by SpaRCo:

Nigel mansell wasnt a great, but he was almost there,I really think that he was better then hakkinen or anyone else in F1 today,apart from shuey,,he could still do magical things in a car,like senna and prost,and pull out a win that made you think
"How the **** did he do that"

I have a question for you - Why did Mansell retire in 1995?
A) He was humiliated by Hakkinen in two races and did not like the feeling, but rather than do a "Damon Hill 1999", he cut his losses.
B) I do not like the question.

[JJP]

Blah-blah-blah. Sparco, these are "facts" that have been twisted around on this BB again and again.

Schumy-fans use it their way and Hakky fans use it another way. Just about any topic (of any subject) gets replys that are based on variations of these "facts".

Naturally it's your right to post whatever you want, but bit of originality wouldn't hurt.

[RedFever]

if you are all bored by this thread, check the "Eddie is the funniest guy" thread, it will bring back your good mood.

[130R]

Based on the cars available, and the results, I would put Schuey approximately 2/10ths quicker than Hakkinen in a perfect world. (same cars, setup the way they like etc...) I don't like MS, as you all know! But I am not fool enough to deny his talent.

[Keith Steele]

I have composed a small piece for this thread.

Flame Bait, oh Flame Bait where for art thou?
I can feel your hate,
and your holier than thou.

You can be counted on readily when things are a little slow. Your author feels the need for rivals to come to blows.

You are here during the season,
and when one is blamed of treason.

You are here following the WC's,
when our sanity falls to pieces.

Flame bait, oh flame bait, your time has come again,
I pray whence'd
I see you next
you'll spend less time than this has been.

[Indy]

Dont get me wrong. I rate Hakk as the second best out there but why do people think he would outdo Schuey in qualifying in equal equiptment.

Schuey destroys his teammates. Mika will outqualify DC, but many times by only 2 or 3 tenths.

Do people out there really believe DC would give Schuey a hard time in qualifying in the same car. That really is getting sureal.

[Makarias]

"No thanks louis,My post has better and more valid content than the past discussions."

That must be a candidate for the "humble quote of the year" award...

[Ricardo F1]

Indy - yep. I'll be surreal, Dave may not be graceful, but he's quick on a hot lap.

[SpaRCo]

Ragged egde you really are thick arent you.

You are comparing a 42 year old mansell in 95 to a 26 year old hakkinen?

Oh please......

And YR you say that when the cars have been equal hakkinen has won 3 out of 4.

Its clear that japan 99 shuey wasnt going flat out.

In japan 98 he started from LAST place..

Oh and what about when the cars were NOT evenly matched,like when the mclaren was considerably faster..How many times did shuey blow hakkinen away then?

Answer-plenty of times.
hungary 98,imola 98,argentina 98,monza,98
god the list goes on and on.

And why is is that when the cars have been evenly matched as you say, shuey got pole everytime??

[This message has been edited by SpaRCo (edited 03-09-2000).]

[magnum]

130R u got the 2/10ths from my post!
I'm suing!

[yr]

SpaRCo,

Argentina 98 and France 98 are the only
races that i can think of where MS has won
MH with slightly inferior car without any problems
in MH´s car.

You said the list goes on, but it doesn´t, check
your video tapes and you´ll find that MS hadn´t
won any other races than those two if MH had
healthy car (and no punctures etc).

[RaggedEdge]

Originally posted by SpaRCo:
Ragged egde you really are thick arent you.

**** you too, novice.

You are comparing a 42 year old mansell in 95 to a 26 year old hakkinen?

Oh please......
[/B]

It was you who started elevating Mansell. Live with it. You are also comparing Schumi's five-year old championships to Mika's brand new ones in too favourable terms.

You still have not positioned Hakkinen on appropriate place in the historical continuum of "not-so-great-drivers". Since that is the whole point your post, could you please do it.

[RaggedEdge]

yr and SpaRCo. Here is the list you are debating about:

Date Race MHQ MHR MSQ MSR MHQ-MSQ MHR-MSR Who won?
31-Oct-99 Suzuka 2 1 1 2 1 -1 MH wins
27-Jun-99 Magny-Cours 14 2 6 5 8 -3 MH wins
16-May-99 Monte Carlo 1 3 2 1 -1 2 MS wins
27-Sep-98 Nurburgring 3 1 1 2 2 -1 MH wins
16-Aug-98 Hungaroring 1 6 3 1 -2 5 MS wins
12-Jul-98 Silverstone 1 2 2 1 -1 1 MS wins
28-Jun-98 Magny-Cours 1 3 2 1 -1 2 MS wins
07-Sep-97 Monza 5 9 9 6 -4 3 MS wins
27-Jul-97 Hockenheim 3 3 4 2 -1 1 MS wins
25-May-97 Barcelona 5 7 7 4 -2 3 MS wins
30-Mar-97 Interlagos 4 4 2 5 2 -1 MH wins
11-Aug-96 Hungaroring 7 4 1 9 6 -5 MH wins
27-Sep-92 Estoril 7 5 5 7 2 -2 MH wins

MS 7 - MH 6. Big deal.

[Daemon]

This is ridiculous. I can't even believe I openned this thread. Oh well here is my $0.02:

Although I agree with Sparco that Currently MS is a better driver than Hakkinen, Hakkinen has only really had 2 years to show what he is capable of, whereas Schuey has had '94,'95,'97'98 to show us how good he is.

The real test of the superior driver will be this year, and hopefully in 3 days time we will have some indication towards this, but for the mean time, 3 days is not that long. Why bother to go over the same battlefield. Most Schuey fans think that he is undoubtably the best, most hakkinen fans think that Mika is right up there with him. Agree to disagree, live and let live, peace love and harmony.......until those 5 red lights drop out at Albert Park March 12.

[RaggedEdge]

Daemon, well said.

For the end, a quote from F1 News Melbourne Preview by Eric Silbermann:

"As for the two main protagonists, Hakkinen and Schumacher, they both have two titles to their name and I believe that is a fair reflection of how evenly matched they are. I do not share the general view that Michael is the better man, but prefer to think there is nothing to split them these days."

Amen to that.


[This message has been edited by RaggedEdge (edited 03-09-2000).]

[yr]

RaggedEdge,

thank´s for the list, i was about to suggest to
SpaRCo that he´d should do some searching
and find the topic you made about it, but somehow
i forgot it while i was writing my previous post.

SpaRCo,

you´ve got some nerve to call people thick
if they compare Mansell/Häkkinen in the time
when NM wasn´t at his peak, yet you don´t seem
to have any problem to use Herbert as a yardstick
while measuring MH´s and MS´s abilities.

MH was rookie in 91 Herbert´s first race was
in 89, Lotus was clearly favouring JH so no wonder
if he did well against Mika, still MH outscored him
easily.
MS was experienced F1 driver and a WDC by
the time he had JH as a team mate, poor Johnny
didn´t get much of a testing time nor access to
telemetry, we will have to wait quite a long time
untill we see MH (or any other driver for that matter)
to get as special treatment from his team, and
to top of it: there was no other reason than making
MS look better than he really is !!!!
Can any one of you picture ,say, Frank Williams
deny his other driver those things just make
another driver happy ? Yeah, me neither.

If you want to use team mate as a yardstick,
why don´t you use Brundle instead of Herbert ?
Brundle had equal treatment in both Benetton and
McLaren, he outraced MS thrice, MH zero times.

[130R]

Magnum -guilty, as charged! I have always suspected as much anyway. your analysis led me to estimate 2/10ths. Thanks again.

[Mr. Salty]

SpaRco,
For the record, Schumi's "charge" through the field at Suzuka '98 was certainly helped by all the other drivers moving over as soon as they saw him in their mirrors. I'm a MS fan, but I seriously doubt MH would have recieved the same treatment.