19 replies to this topic

[selena]

I am not a technical person and my office workmates are betting on the above topic. Can anyone give me the right answer?

[arcwulf7]

Technical requirements state all cars must be rear wheel drive only. I believe the last Grand Prix fwd car was a 1930's era Auto Union or Mercedes.

[selena]

Then this means that only the back wheels can turn 360 degrees while the front ones can only turn to the left and right.

[Louis Mr. F1]

of course the front wheels can also turn 360 degrees, but the power is coming ONLY from the rear wheels. (otherwise how would the car move forward?)

no 4 wheel drive in F1 now.

only 4 wheel steering was used in the 93 Benetton F1 car.
(all 4 wheels can turn left and right)

[arcwulf7]

Selena, it means the back wheels are used to propel the car and the front wheels are used the steer the car (there is no four wheel steering on current f1 cars). That means the rear tyres only are connected to the drive train and engine and are used to move the car but cannot be used to alter its direction, except for incidental traction control effect. The front wheels are free spinnining and are moved left and right by the drivers steering. The fwd in my previous post stands for Front wheel drive, btw. To my knowledge there has never been a 4 wheel Grand Prix car of any vintage.

[david_martin]

To my knowledge there has never been a 4 wheel Grand Prix car of any vintage.

There have actually been several 4wd F1 cars compete, although none very sucessfully. The Turbine powered Lotus 56B was the last one to race, during 1971.

[arcwulf7]

I stand corrected . My vintage knowledge comes mostly from Speedvision retrospectives of pre and early Formula 1 days, with little technical detail

[Amadeus]

http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=19359 (The search facility is a wonderful invention!)

To quote:

From http://4wd.sofcom.co...ars/Racing.html :

"1961:The engine capacity for Formula-One cars was reduced from 2.5 to 1.5 litres. Ferguson Research devised the Formula Ferguson (FF) four wheel drive system. Jack Fairman drove the 4WD Ferguson Project 99 (P99) F1 car in the British Grand Prix at Aintree. Later, Stirling Moss won the Oulton Park Gold Cup race in it; there was rain during the race but Moss' practice time was second fastest - 1m44.8s v. 1m44.6s by Bruce McLaren in a Cooper - so the P99 was no dry-weather slouch. This innovative car has a front mounted Coventry Climax 4-cylinder engine, Ferguson Four Wheel Drive System and Dunlop Maxaret ABS brakes. Moss nominated the P99 as his favourite Formula-One car in the September 1997 issue of MotorSport and he knew a few cars. The P99 is now at the D0nington Museum.

The project's beginnings were with Fred Dixon and Tony Rolt who were inspired by the racing possibilities of 4WD before WWII. After the war they teamed up with Harry Ferguson (of the tractors). Ferguson Research worked on many, perhaps too many, innovative ideas, trying to interest the major manufacturers in using 4WD in high volume production cars. Claude Hill devised a centre differential arrangement with automatic locking to limit the speed differences allowed between front and rear axles in the case of wheel slip. The idea of a racing car, the P99, was taken up in 1960 for 1961 as a high speed test-bed and demonstrator of the system's advantages. BRM built a 4WD FF-based car for F1 in 1964, and there was more F1 interest by 1969, but American Indianapolis-style racers were more quickly receptive. The Ferguson 4WD system was also used in the Jensen FF 4WD road car (1966).

Formula-One later changed from 1.5 litre engines to 3 litre engines and one would have thought that four wheel drive would have become even more relevant, what with the increased power and relatively primitive tyre technology, but it was not tried again until 1969

1969:brought a brief flowering of four wheel drive to the 3-litre era of Formula One (F1). Lotus, Matra and McLaren tried 4WDs and Cosworth, the engine maker, built one of their own. The 4WDs did not perform well, but they were brand new and barely developed, while teams concentrated on the main-chance 4x2s. The drivers also objected to the heavy handling, or was it just "different"? Some thought that there could not be a 4WD success unless a team and its drivers wholeheartedly committed themselves to the system - a similar phenomenon later occurred in the F1 turbo-car era. (4WD however was later banned from F1.)

1969 June 21: The Dutch Grand-Prix at Zandvoort saw Matra and Lotus bring 4WDs to practice - the Matra MS84 and the Lotus 63. At this time all cars were powered by the 3 litre Ford Cosworth V8, except for a lone Ferrari V12 for Chris Amon and uncompetitive BRM V12s for John Surtees and Jackie Oliver. The drivers put most effort into their 4x2 cars - Jackie Stewart in has Matra MS80, Graham Hill and Jochen Rindt in their Lotus 49Bs. Hill did achieve a 4WD practice-lap time within 3.8 seconds of his best 4x2 time and Stewart one within 2.4 seconds of his best 4x2 time (1:21.5). Neither 4WD car started the race. Stewart won (MS80).

The Lotus 63 drew on Lotus' experience with the type 56 Indianapolis gas-turbine cars although powered by the 3-litre V8 Cosworth engine. Because of this latter fact it had a water radiator, mounted in the nose as was the custom of the day, although the car was very low and the nose long and rather wedge shaped. The rear-mounted engine was turned around with the gearbox behind and beneath the driver's back. Drive was taken fore and aft by shafts on the left hand side of the car. The driver was positioned quite far forward with his ankles beneath the front "axle". The ventilated disc brakes were inboard, which reduced unsprung weight and made more room for the steering, hub, and c.v. joints out at the wheels. (Inboard brakes were inherited by the later Lotus 72, despite its being 4x2. The Lotus 72 also brought side-mounted radiators to F1; Colin Chapman was a very innovative designer.)

The Matra MS84 was less radical in appearance than the Lotus 63, resembling the 4x2 MS80. It also used the Cosworth engine turned around but with the drive shafts on the right hand side of the body.

Some controversy surrounded "aerodynamic devices" on the F1 cars at Zandvoort. Aerofoils, or were they "spoilers" sprouted on noses and tails and there was much stretching and bending of, and grumbling about, the rules in this regard.

1969 July 6: The French Grand-Prix, Clermont-Ferrand. Jackie Stewart concentrated on practice in the 4x2 Matra MS80 (3:00.6), and was 6 seconds slower in a session in the 4WD MS84. A new driver, John Miles, drove the 4WD Lotus 63, recording 3:12.8 in practice and starting the race, 12th out of 13 on the grid. The car retired after one lap. Stewart won (MS80).

1969 July 19: The British Grand-Prix, Silverstone saw McLaren join Matra and Lotus in the 4WD club, trying the 4WD M9A, although only as an aside to the 4x2 M7As. The last 4 out of 17 places of the starting grid were filled with 4WDs: Derek Bell (McLaren M9A), John Miles (Lotus 63), Jean-Pierre Beltoise (Matra MS84) and Jo Bonnier (Lotus 63). Beltoise finished 9th, and Miles 10th, out of 10 finishers, respectively 6 and 9 laps behind the winner (Stewart, MS80) [MotorSport].

In due course, four wheel drive was banned from Formula-One Grand Prix racing. It is interesting to speculate if it would be in use today, if allowed, or do the current aerodynamic devices give sufficient traction for 4x2s?"

So there you go F1/4WD in 1961 and 1969 only....

[paulb]

Cisitalia also produced a 4WD GP car, the 1946 Type 360. From Historia del Cisitalia.
http://leo.worldonli...s/cisitalia.htm

[molive]

Originally posted by selena
Then this means that only the back wheels can turn 360 degrees while the front ones can only turn to the left and right.

sorry, but

[mhferrari]

No, it has been banned for a while.

[f1racer]

selena did you win the bet?

[Blade]

Simply put,

4 wheel drive cars are cars that have engine powered delievered to all four wheels.

F1 cars are two wheel drive, rear drive cars. This is because engine power is delievered only to the two rear wheels.

For example,

If we use a crank to 'lift' up the car so all four wheels are not touching the ground, only the two wheels will spin when the driver applies the gas pedal in a two wheel drive car. In the case for 4 wheel drive, all four wheels will spin.

Since when we lift up the formula 1 car, only both rear wheels will spin when the driver applies the gas, the formula 1 car is a

2 WHEEL REAR DRIVE car.

got it?

[selena]

Thanks for your answers. I did not participate in the betting because I had a hunch it was a two-wheel drive but all four wheels could move 360 degrees.

[se7en_24]

Originally posted by selena
Thanks for your answers. I did not participate in the betting because I had a hunch it was a two-wheel drive but all four wheels could move 360 degrees.

nahh, some cars the front wheels can only move 180 degrees, the car moves an inch and then the rest of the race the wheels lock up...

Sorry, you have got to be winding everyone up selena!!!!

[kouks]

OK, this may freak some people out, but there was even a F1 car that had 6 wheels, No ****, it had 4 wheels at the front that would steer the thing.;)

F1 technology has come a long way in the last 10 years though. One of the Ferrari's even has Chop control. Two buttons located on the steering wheel labeled left and right. It controls the degree of steering relative to road speed to ensure SAFE steering response during hard acceleration.

[cjpani]

All of these, 4wd F1 cars:


Ferguson P99


McLaren


Matra


Lotus Type 63


Cosworth


Lotus Type 56

photos provided by Rolando Díaz

Regards
cj

[Sean L]

Originally posted by selena
Thanks for your answers. I did not participate in the betting because I had a hunch it was a two-wheel drive but all four wheels could move 360 degrees.

selena, what do you mean by the wheels moving 360°? All wheels on all cars rotate about their own axis which means every time it goes round it rotates 360°.

The rear wheels which drive an F1 car rotate in the direction of motion (forward or backward) but cannot move in any other axis. The front wheels steer the car also rotate 360° and can swing left to right in an arc which is less than 90°.

[arcwulf7]

great pics, cjpani.

[Zeus]

There was a 6 wheel Williams that never raced. Unlike the 6 wheel Tyrrell, the Williams had 4 wheels in the rear. Although not what we generally think of when we think of 4 wheel drive, this car had a huge traction advatage over conventional cars. The system was banned before it ever raced.