15 replies to this topic

[Megatron]

I saw an interview with Patrick Head the other day where he stated that when Honda left Williams high and dry without engines in 1988 (with one year remaining on their contract) the switch to Judd engines nearly killed the team, but "it looked like a good idea at the time".

I remember March having a few good runs and Mansell even had a couple of seconds with it. Was it really that bad?

[Marcel Schot]

10 retirements with engine failure in 32 attempts, yes it was that bad

[Darren Galpin]

In 1988, Mansell finished races only twice, and both times second (Silverstone, Jerez). He had five engine/electrical based retirements. Patrese managed a 4th Australia, 5th Spain, 6th Monaco.

[BRG]

Bear in mind that Nige was driving the nuts off the Judd trying to keep up with the turbo cars - that 2nd place was a real triumph. Maybe the Judd wasn't so bad - it is a bit unfair to compare the product of a small private tuner with a factory built Honda.

[Darren Galpin]

That Silverstone 2nd was achieved on a track which was wet then drying - I can remember Mansell veering all over the place to keep his tyres cool, so that helped against the turbos. I can't remember Jerez though......

[Marcel Schot]

BRG : true that Judd was good with their limited resources, but also true that it was a dog of an engine that Williams didn't deserve. The car was simply too good for the engine.

To illustrate, a look at qualifying times for Silverstone & Paul Ricard, both in 1987 and 1988 in the second quarter of a season (when the worst hickups should be solved and the heads don't hang down in disappointment yet):

Williams switched from Honda to Judd
March switched from Ford to Judd
Ligier switched from Megatron to Judd

Silverstone
Average difference in qual time : 1.5 seconds slower in 1988
Williams : 6.1 seconds slower in 1988
March : 4.7 seconds faster in 1988
Ligier : 2.9 seconds slower in 1988

Paul Ricard
Average difference in qual time : 0.8 seconds slower in 1988
Williams : 3.0 seconds slower in 1988
March : 1.7 seconds faster in 1988
Ligier : did not qualify in 1988 while 13 and 17 in 1987

So all in all, for the small March outfit the Judd was a big improvement over the standard Cosworth, while for Williams and to a lesser extend Ligier it was a big step down from the big turbos.

[BRG]

Originally posted by Marcel Schot
for Williams and to a lesser extend Ligier it was a big step down from the big turbos.

But wasn't it also a step forward to the new non-turbo era which gave Williams a head-start with atmo cars?

[Louis Mr. F1]

i remember Mansell qualified 2nd or 3rd in the first race of 1988 in a Williams Judd. After Senna had problem at the start, Mansel was basically on pole, but was immediately passed by Prost's Honda.

The speed of Judd engine is comparable to the Cosworth of Benetton, but it was very unreliable and overheat easily.
In Hungary 88, Mansell was attacking Senna's Honda for the lead until he made a mistake/ran wide/overheat engine.

The March Judd of Capelli also finished 2nd in the Portugal GP after passing Senna in the straight. and then in Japan, he was challenging Prost for the lead before the car failed.

Gugelmin finished 3rd in the 1989 Brazil GP, then, it was never competitive again that year.

1990, Capelli finished 2nd again in France after leading for the majority of the race. 3 laps to go, engine warning, had to let Prost passed him.

Capelli was in 3rd in Britain, moving up fast until the car failed again.

any other cars using the Judd engines during that period?

[Marcel Schot]

Eventually, yes. However, imagine thus 2 second places might not have come...would they have had the chance and/or money to switch to Renault the next year? I think this is what Head refers to. No Renault for 1989, far less successful and it might indeed have been very hard, if not impossible, to get on top again.

So once again we're faced with a seemingly trivial second place finish that might have had quite an enormous impact on the history of Formula One Ferrari might have been able to pick up more successes along the way and anno 2001, their first driver might have been a Jean Alesi with 27 wins on his name. Hmmm...would that butterfly effect apply to F1 after all?

[Marcel Schot]

Originally posted by Louis Mr. F1
any other cars using the Judd engines during that period?

Judd supplied:
1988 : Williams, Ligier, March
1989 : Brabham, Lotus, March, Euro Brun
1990 : Brabham, March, Euro Brun
1991 : Lotus, Dallara
1992 : Brabham, Andrea Moda

That is under the Judd name. I'm pretty sure Hart engines were basically Judds too at some point in time, but I'd have to check my "library" at home for that

[Megatron]

Brian Hart actually developed Cosworth DFRs until he came back with Jordan in 1993.

In 1993, Judd started building Yamaha engines. They did so until 1997 when a confrontation between TWR (who wanted Hart) and Yamaha ended with Yamaha leaving F1.

[Megatron]

BTW,

You forget the BEST team to ever to use Judds, the incomprable Life effort.

FIRST were also to run Judd engines in 1989, but that fell apart.

[Marcel Schot]

Megatron : Life actually used the Judd they had in the car? I thought they drove the car Flintstone-style ;)

[Megatron]

Yea, I know what you mean. They weren't top spec engines like Leyton House, they were actually a year old CV unit (thanks Vitesse2!).

Still, it was about 200 horsepower more than what the team had with the F35 W12!

I think that Bruno managed a couple of demonstration laps in Portugal and that was it.

[marion5drsn]

This is a case of trying to compare Offenhauser against Ford(Cosworth) and Chevrolet(Ilmor) and tons of money as compared to Offy and Judd. It is a no contest affair. How many millions did the various car owners put into Judd. I'll bet it wasn't anywhere near what Mercedes put into Ilmor and Ford into Cosworth.What some of you might be saying is that Judd was just outmatched by the big outfits money. Cubic money rules,right? Just look at Ferrari,the oil compaies and Tobacco. If one of the Tobacco companies had of spent money on Judd it might have been much different. The BMW engines took a lot of time(money) to get where they are. How much money did they spend getting to this point. As somone has said,"Look where the money flows". M.L. Anderson

[Megatron]

While were on the subject of bashing Judds, Bobby Rahal says the reason he quit Truesports in 1988 was because they didn't shell out the $$ to run the Chevy and the Judd was obsolete.

From the interview I read, Rahal seems like he is still made about Horne going with Judd to this very day!!