508 replies to this topic

[Megatron]

Remember the FIRST F1 team? Exaclty why didnt' they run the F189 in 1989? No sponsorship?

Also, on the 1996 entry list the other day I spoted a "Dome Mugen-Honda" with Nakano and an Itailian (drove one race, one corner for Jordan in 1993 at Monza). Why didn't they ever make it and was a car ever built from Dome?

Also, anyone want to talk about any other F1 entries that never quite made it to the grid?

[LittleChris]

I seem to dimly remember that Dome DID build a test hack and ran it at a few places like Suzuka & Paul Ricard, but everything then seemed to go quiet.

[Frank de Jong]

Dome even had it´s own website.
A personal favourite:
The private Benetton-BMW of Pirro of 1987 IIRC, couldn´t race because it was basically a 1-year old car, or was it that Benetton couldn´t race with Ford AND BMW as engine partners?
Some other ones:
various Reynard projects
the BMW F1 (Simtek)
The Honda F1 "hobby" car (built in engineers "spare time...")
Slightly off-topic: Ferrari´s CART car.

[Leo]

I read an article on Asiatech's Enrique Scalabroni lately and he was involved in quite some teams-that-didn't-make-it:
-Durango
-Il Barone Rampante
-Ikuzawa

Other teams that never made it to the grid:
-GLAS (although it effectively became Modena Team Lamborghini)
-Bravo (Something Spanish(?) with Mark Gene's older brother Jordi involved)
-DAMS
-Dome
-First

I searched this forum, but I couldn't find any information on those teams. There is however a thread about the Middlebridge/Trussardi Benetton that Frank talks about and another thread about a Swedish attempt at F1, called Ekstrom. Use the search option for those.
If someone has any info on the teams above, I'd really appreciate it.

[FEV]

The only DAMS F1 car built was really a bad one. Heavey and
slow, its gearbox was fragile as cristal and the poor Jan Lammers
and Erik Comas were really taken for fools at the one and only
public appearence of the car.

Ekstroem ran a team in F2 and then in the first years of F3000. In
the 1985 European F3000 I think they ran one of the few ex-F1
cars there was in the first year of F3000. Also I'm not sure but I
think it was Fulvio-Maria Ballabio who was to drive the still-born
F1 car.

GLAS was as I remember it, ment to be a Mexican National F1
Team. So maybe Carlos Jalife can tell us more about it. Didn't the
guy who brought all the money ran away with it and was never
found ? (maybe he's EZLN's Marcos ). The driver
was supposed to be Fernando Plata who had a decent F3000
experience.

The Bravo F1 project had the same purpose. National support for
a national team and national drivers. Altough I can remember
some french being involved in the project.

The Dome project was one of the first teams to try the
Bridgestone tires.

One we can had to the list is Guy Nègre W12 engine.

Pirro's 1987 Benetton-BMW reminds me of a similar case in the late
70s. Some Ferrari F1s were sold to a private team (Trivellato ??)
for F2 italian drivers to drive (Pesenti-Rossi ?? Gian-Carlo
Martini ?? Flammini ??). They only did a non-championship race in
Britain and never attempted to qualify for a WDC event.

F3 French team FPE (Formula Project Engineering) when it was created wanted to go to F1 in five years. They never made it to F3000... They however went in Indianpolis were they helped to launch the career of Stephan Grégoire.

[Eugen]

Cosworth

[Vitesse2]

Cisitalia 360 - never raced except in an obscure race in Argentina as the Autoar

Kieft-Climax - still-born when Climax cancelled the Godiva V8

Sacha-Gordine - playboy owner ran out of money

[Frank de Jong]

Originally posted by FEV


One we can had to the list is Guy Nègre W12 engine.

(It was tried in the back of an AGS)

Pirro's 1987 Benetton-BMW reminds me of a similar case in the late
70s. Some Ferrari F1s were sold to a private team (Trivellato ??)
for F2 italian drivers to drive (Pesenti-Rossi ?? Gian-Carlo
Martini ?? Flammini ??). They only did a non-championship race in
Britain and never attempted to qualify for a WDC event.
(I think it was Martini, can't remember the team).

From 1975 onwards, I found the Argentinian Berta, the 1976 Alpine A500 testcar for the Renault turbo engine, which reminds me of the Alpine F1 of ca. 1968, the March 2-4-0, the original Brabham BT46 with surface cooling, the Dywa F1, the Alfa Romeo 179T, both the Williams 6-wheelers, the Brabham BT51, McLaren MP4/1D-TAG testcar, the Minardi M184-Alfa Romeo (!), Ligier JS29-Alfa Romeo, the Ferrari 639 testcar of '88, Reynard 89M, First 189, Honda RC101, Honda RC101B (!), McLaren MP4/8B-Lamborghini, Lola T95/30-Ford, Dome F105, yet again a Honda F1 car ('99 Dallara-built), Williams FW21B-BMW. Some of these cars were only built for test purposes, but are anyway fair F1 cars which just never happened to race.

[Vitesse2]

Another Brabham, the BT47, which was to have been the second fan car but never got off the drawing board ...

[Frank de Jong]

Originally posted by Megatron
Remember the FIRST F1 team? Exaclty why didnt' they run the F189 in 1989? No sponsorship?

By the way, Megatron, in fact the First sort of ran once, with Tarquini, at the 1989 Bologna shoot-out...

[FLB]

FIRST were denied entry by FISA. The chassis ended up becoming the Life.

[Ali_G]

Lola in 97 ?

Pulled out after both cars failed to qualify. Lack of sponsorship money i think.

Niall

[dolomite]

The Audi 5-cylinder turbo F1 car 'revealed' on the front page of Motoring News circa 1985.

[Yves]

Remember also of Bugatti entrance in 1956 at Reims with Maurice Trintignant. Qualified (if we can say that) at 18.6 secs of pole
A very poor result for a hudge budget (car + engine).

Y.

[Megatron]

The FIRST competed in a race called the Bologna shoot-out? What was this?

Also, if we are on the subject of actual CARS that don't see F1 action, the Toyota test vechicle that is currently running is another one.

If you want to talk about engines...

I know that AGS wanted to switch from Cosworth to the W12 mid season but never got to...

Also, Isuzu built a V12 that tested in the Lotus once but was never seen again.

[Allen Brown]

From the 3-litre (66-85) period, how about the 1967 Alpine, the 1972 Berta, the 1964 and 1968 Parnells, the 1967 Pearce and the 1969 Serenissima, plus other incomplete projects such as the GRD, Hawke, McNally, Reynard and Toutou.

Allen

[Marcor]

The Walker-Climax was planned in 1961 but the team could already used between a Lotus 18, a Cooper and a Ferguson...

In the same period the UDT-Laystall team would also built a F1 but prefered to use Lotus Climax.

[bobbo]

Uh, does any one have any photos of the above mentioned cars (assuming there were photos of them taken)?? Should be interesting!!

Bobbo

[MN]

1964 Lotus-Honda.

[Barry Boor]

I've always wanted to see what the Walker looked like.

But WHAT on earth is a Toutou? NO SILLY BALLET ANSWERS, THANK YOU!

[Allen Brown]

Barry

I'm amazed you haven't heard of this one!

It was documented in full in Autosport on 5 December 1974. I can transcribe the entire reference if you don't have access to that copy.

Allen

[Barry Boor]

All Autosports sold at a vast profit some years ago!

[Marco94]

Some time ago, I received some scans from a portugese formula one project. Needless to say they didn't make it.

[mat1]

1967/68 Alpine?????

That one is new to me...

What engine did they plan to use?

Or had they their own engine?

mat

[Frank de Jong]

The Alpine used their own 3 litre V8 sportscar engine IIRC.

[Megatron]

Lotus were going to run Honda engines in 1964? They would have been a long time before they actualy 'did' run them in 1987 and 1988.

I always wondered why Walker didn't build his own car, with his success with customer Lotus and Coopers.

[Vitesse2]

Walker:
Two Walker-Climaxes were laid down, designed by Alf Francis and Valerio Colotti.

The original car was built to the 2.5 litre formula and looked much like the contemporary Cooper. However, work on it went slowly and by the time it was ready it had been overtaken by events: Walker had bought a Lotus 18 with which Moss had several successes and when the formula changed it was too big and heavy to be competitive with a smaller engine. The original car never raced, although it still exists (where??) while the second, lighter, chassis was never completed.

Alpine:
The 1968 Alpine was apparently unauthorised by the company, but was built anyway and was tested in secret at Zandvoort by Mauro Bianchi. It had an Alpine V8 engine, prepared by Gordini, driving through a conventional Hewland box. Results of the test were apparently discouraging and it was set aside

[vroom-vroom]

Originally posted by Eugen
Cosworth

Yup, the most bizarre-looking F1 project of the 70's. Anyone have a pic? I believe Safir (a F3 manufacturer) also made a F1 chassis in the late 70's.

[Megatron]

Cosworth actually built it in 1968 and it was a four wheel drive machine. It was withdrawn from the British Grand Prix after testing.

I think Robin Herd designed it.

[Allen Brown]

It was withdrawn, it was Robin Herd, but the year was 1969.

[Megatron]

Yes it was 1969, a typo on my part.

It was the same year that the Lotus 63, the Matra MS84, and the McLaren M9A competed in the British Grand Prix. I don't think the McLaren ever turned a lap again, but if the Cosworth would have entered, it would have made for five four wheel drive cars in the race.

[FLB]

Originally posted by vroom-vroom
I believe Safir (a F3 manufacturer) also made a F1 chassis in the late 70's.

The Safir was a rebadged Token.

[MN]

Originally posted by Megatron
Lotus were going to run Honda engines in 1964? They would have been a long time before they actualy 'did' run them in 1987 and 1988.

Colin Chapman gave Honda a little lesson on F1.
When Honda anounced F1 entry as an engine supplier in 1963, Chapman contacted Honda to show his interests.
He came to Tokyo with Jim Clark and signed up the engine deal.
Then he gone home with the contract paper and made a threat to Climax to develop new engine for up comming season.
It worked and he canceled Honda contract by a phone call.
Honda replied Chapman by a telegram saying "We will go our own way".
Noone at Honda knew how to design F1 chassis.
A young in-house engineer, aeronautical engineering grad, only 4 years with Honda was assigned to desin one.
This is the one he had came up with.

Long comical stories to go with it.
The young engineer who designed it is now Professor Sano.

[rod]

Am I the only person who doesn't have a complete set of 1974 Autosports to hand? A Toutou?????

[FLB]

Was the 1993 Trebron-Judd ever built? Or did it never leave the model stage?

[Megatron]

One that I don't think (And I appoligize if it has) been mentioned is the Lambo Lola Judd that was supposed to run in 1992. It was the remants of the old Lambo team (which was the remnats of the GLAS team).

[Vitesse2]

Like Rod, I would appreciate enlightenment on the Toutou ...

And what the hell was a Trebron-Judd???

[biercemountain]

Regarding the failed Lola attempt in 97, if I remember correctly the cars were something like 5-6 seconds off pace in Australia. Needless to say the cars failed to qualify and primary sponsor MasterCard pulled the plug, choosing to support Jordan instead. Without this sponsorship Lola was done for the year.

I found a picture of the Cosworth 4WD in a book I have. You can view it at the following URL:

http://www.biercemou...es/cosworth.jpg

Apparently it was a complete pig to drive, with heavy steering and wild wheelspin. In the book it says the following:

In later years, one Cosworth employee was moved to remark, "It was an aberration. I really can't think what was in our minds when we undertook the project".

[Megatron]

I think in 1993 the Judds were racing under the Yamaha banner with Ken Tyrrell, so maybe they were year old engines (al la Ilmor/Pacific in 1994)?

[bobbo]

r. e. the Cosworth F1:

UGLY, TOO!!!!!!!!!!!

Bobbo

[Megatron]

I heard a weird rumor the other day that said the Cosworth GP car was originally going to debut with Jim Clark and that it was also a possible replacement for Jackie's Matra!

Anyone ever heard that?

About the design, the car was actually very innovative, and it didn't use the "spec" fourwheel drive that the MS84, 63, and M9A used.

They did fit wings on to it later on but I don't think it did any good.

[FLB]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
And what the hell was a Trebron-Judd???

The Trebron was a Japanese-financed project designed by a Canadian engineer around a Judd GV. The car bore his first name, backwards (Norbert).

IIRC Autosport published an image of the model.

[Leo]

This picture shows that the Cosworth was actually a rather pretty car:

http://courierinfo.n...9cosworthF1.jpg

[Megatron]

From that picture the Cosworth looks like a cross between the Lancia D50 (notice the sides) and the Lotus 56B.

[Allen Brown]

Barry, Rod, Vitesse2

Don't worry - I haven't forgotten about the Toutou. I promise I will transcribe every single word that has ever been written on the subject.

Allen

[rod]

i hope this Toutou thing isn't a wind-up, and that Allen's 'complete transcription' will amount to more than 3 words! (Though I suspect more has been written about the Toutou in this thread than anywhere else!)

What was the Audi which got mentioned a while back and not refered to again?

And can anyone take up bobbo's request for photo's of some of these projects? I know that several (Reynard, Ekstrom etc.) have appeard elsewhere in this forum, several more (AGS Negré, Berte etc.) on 8W, and Dome and Dams are on the company websites. The Cosworth is in the Donington collection, and can be photographed anytime, the Walker Climax is competing in historic events. But there are several others for which the only photo must be in someone's old magazine collection. Please share.

[rod]

Can we now add Phoenix to this list?

Still waiting to hear about the mysterious Toutou.

And what was the Audi in Motoring News?

Since Doug joined TNF he has mentioned H&L Motors and Guidobaldi. Any more?

[RDV]

Following back on this posting saw several cars that I know, the Dams f1 was actually another of the offsprings of the reynard f1 , as was the pacific, the plans also were at ligier ( along with the wind tunnel model of the reynard..) gearbox on the Dams car was actually a minardi box , with shift software developed by Dams . Big heavy and more than a bit out -of-date.Had many problems shifting gears.... Must have been one of the very last cosworth dfv/x/c/whatever cars...

The Life was built for Apicela and Martini, Tarquini could hardly get into the car as quite chubby at the time, went on a crash diet and lost 15 kg ( really...) , Bologna shoot out was a side by side race on circuit laid out on the parking lot at the Bologna motor show. Subsequently no more money. I think engine actualy aJudd V8 not Cosworth.

The Berta F1 was not only the Berta chassi , also a cod Cosworth look-alike built by Berta himself , and I mean totaly designed and built at the Fortress at Alta Gracia. Berta being the Argentinean equivalent of Forguieri, chassi, engine and gearbox man.

Last year, while visiting the Dome wind tunnel on the Suzuka gp weekend saw the Dome f1 there , a bit dated now , but looks quite competent...

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Megatron
I heard a weird rumor the other day that said the Cosworth GP car was originally going to debut with Jim Clark and that it was also a possible replacement for Jackie's Matra!

Anyone ever heard that?

There was a mention in an old Speedworld International about Clark and the Cossie, but it was merely commenting whether Ford would 'pull rank' on Lotus and force him to change. I don't think it was a real possibility.

[Redliner]

Reguarding the Cosworth (herafter referred to as "the dog") Trever Taylor was enlisted to test it at one point as well. He hated it and when asked about the dog never made any comment, just rolled his eyes .