21 replies to this topic

[Lantern]

I personally don't see the problem with having so many people out there. Both Nascar and CART have reduced the number over the pit wall and look at how many more accidents have happened over the past five years. Then compare that number to F1. When you reduce the amount of people the others have to zigzag in front of the car carrying extra equipment. Is this not dangerous also?

Also I may just be selfish, but I think its really something special to see so many people working safely as a unit during an F1 pitstop

[f li]

Yes, I would like to see a return of the riding mechanic! This "back seat" guy (formerly "side seat" guy would have full responsibility for tire changes and refuelling. Car design will now have to be better compromised in light of the fact that the RM would probably be a fairly big guy, after all he has to do all the pit work. Make the car too small and getting in/out will eat up too much time. Make the car too big and you pay a price. Newey would attempt use a sedated spider monkey and go for no pitstops, but the FIA will prevent that by making multiple stops manditory.

[This message has been edited by f li (edited 03-09-2000).]

[Ursus]

In my opinion, problems with pit accidents in Nascar seems to be little room and that often you see the drivers barging into the pitstall half sideways. In F1 the pitstalls are well separated allowing easy access and the drivers tries to make a neat entry/exit(as it is faster that way).

[BRG]

I have often thought that the FIA’s supposed pro-safety ethic collapses completely when you look at the pitlane. Dozens of people are milling around carrying equipment and splashing huge quantities of highly volatile fuel about. Hardly a recipe for safety.

I think the example of NASCAR is a bit misleading. Their cars are huge compared to an F1 car and the sight of that poor sod sprinting around the car with a trolley jack is just laughable.

CART is a better comparison - at least the technology is closer. They do very well on pit stop times with only 6 (I think) people over the wall and are not much slower than F! using sometimes 15 or 16 people. This is a rule that F1 could very well pick up from CART. Fewer people in the firing line MUST be safer.

Of course, I am a reactionary who would like to see the end of the whole pit-stop culture, both on safety and sporting grounds. But that’s another thread


------------------
BRG

"all the time, maximum attack"

[Lantern]

OK, lets look at the so called "safer" CART procedure. Hmmm....Michael Andretti ran over his crew member's head this year.....OK end of look at so called safer procedure.

[mono-posto]

One way to reduce bodies is to have the same guy remove the tire and put the new one on. You automatically reduce the number of people out there by four. It would lengthen the pitstop slightly but the extra time would be uniform up and down pitlane. The rule that everyone must stay in the garage unless preparing for a stop has helped keep the moving obstacles down for the drivers and I think that makes the stop much safer. All in all, refueling debate aside, I think stops in F1 are pretty safe and controlled especially with the super slow speed limits they have.

[Damop]

Lantern - of course we won't bring up the Benetton BBQ in 1994 when nearly the entire pit crew were torched....

[EddieJF1]

Jos Weretoastin.....smokin' in '94!

[Mellon]

the Frying Dutchman?

[EddieJF1]

I believe I read a little while back that one of the drivers (mabe JV?) made the suggestion that they get rid of refueling (fuel cell filled to go race distance), but keep the tire changes. I'm sure others have suggested this.

This sounds like a good idea to me, since you keep the stops quick, you can have 50 guys over the wall if you want, and there is no fuel being mishandled. Plus, you can have more strategy, since the car gets lighter towards the end of the race, and the tire wear changes.

Just a thought.

[This message has been edited by EddieJF1 (edited 03-09-2000).]

[This message has been edited by EddieJF1 (edited 03-09-2000).]

[Lantern]

Damop,

I believe you went past the 5 year limitation of discussion on this thread ;) Please refer to the first post....LOL!!

[Lantern]

Also,

What does fire have to do with the number of pitcrew members? Just a thought.

[petrohed]

Each F1 pit lane crew seems to be well drilled and efficient in their duties. Each member having his own specific job(s) and responsibilites.
Even to the point of the brake board man holding up the exit of a car if necessary to prevent pit lane crashes. Should there be traffic in the pit lane on completion of tyre changing and refuelling.
Though some times accidents happen, I think it was Johnny Herbert who exited the pits with the rear jack still attached to the car a few years ago. Thankfully accidents seem to be rare and are dealt with quickly and efficiently.
The difference with Champ cars and other formulae seems to be the use of overhead air hoses in F1, for the outer wheels, rather than hoses trailing across the pit box. Therefore running over a hose and becoming entangled is not such a problem. Also the wheels taken off are cleared away before the car exits the pits usually not leaving barriers in the pits for
others to run into.

[Lantern]

VERY good point about the airhoses petro!!!

[Indian Chief]

With so many pitcrew, the pitstop looks more professional.
IMO, the CART pitstops look awful and NASCAR's are even worse.

[Peter]

What worries me is the number of other people in the pit lane, such as photographers. Also you quite often see people walking across the pit lane, from the garage to the pit wall.

Even the "authorised" pit crew take up a lot of space (I know they are only meant to be there for one lap before the car comes in, but that means they are out, in effect for three laps at a time, with two cars to service) and this is starting to become part of the team tactics, making it more awkward for the team in the neighbouring garage, by occupying the limits of their own box and making the next car have to turn in/out much more tightly.

I wonder what the rules are for the stop/go man to allow his car out when another car is approaching - are there any fixed distances or is it just his judgement?

[Ursus]

I belive cars in the fast lane have the right of way.

------------------
Ursus
Trust me, send money.

[BRG]

Lantern

Think how many heads Michael Andretti could have run over in a F1 pit....

------------------
BRG

"all the time, maximum attack"

[Laphroaig]

A summary, add if I forgot something (I'm doing this by heart)

Pitstops with refueling 94-99
3 fires (verstappen 94, irvine 94 and a Prost in 98 or 99)
2 mechanics injured (Imola 94, and another one somewhere, dunno)
1 X-wing torn off, 1 jack taken out for a ride (you should have seen Briatorre smile and shake his head ;)

I bet I forgot some, but on the whole, it doesn't look that bad for 6 seasons... = 6x 16 races, average of 20 stops per race? (DNF's equal out 2 stop races, low estimate IMO), that's about 2000 pitstops in total...
Can't say I find the accident rate alarmingly high! And if the FIA checks the fuel rigs correctly, there shouldn't be too much of a spill (rigs shut down when there is a preasure loss, so you never get 'hundreds of liters' in the pitlane)
This is just an observation, no personal oppinions. But saying pitstops are unsafe seems (so far) to be untrue...

[Lantern]

LOL!!!

I guess that's why he's not in F1!! heheheh!!

[Yelnats]

I think F1 has a big saftey advantage where it comes to removal and installation of tires. With about twelve men involved in this, there is never a loose tire laying on the track (or rolling!) as there is in CART. Fire is not a big risk for these helmeted and Nomexed crews, unless one is disabled and unconscious they can get out of the way in a hurry. The main risk with so many men out there is a loss of control due to a failure of the speed limiter device. This is quite unlikely but could cause a car to skid through 6 to 8 men at more than 80 KPH. Many bruises and fractures would be the most likely result of this scenario which is one of the risks of being on the forefront of the action in a dangerous sport like F1.

[BRG]

So that's alright then is it Yelnats???

I think you are a bit too ready to dismiss the risks. Perhaps you wouldn't mind being hit by a F1 car at 80kph (that's 50mph in old money) but I would.

Statistics in the UK show that pedestrians hit at 20mph mostly survive, more are killed at 30mph, still more at 40mph and at 50mph they almost all are. Multiply that by 10 or 12 when Jimmy Racer loses it in the pitlane and we have major carnage. This assumes that they survived the fire at the other end of the pitlane when Benny Backmarker's tank overflowed.

Yes, motor sport is dangerous. Let's try to minimise that. Complacency kills.

------------------
BRG

"all the time, maximum attack"