23 replies to this topic

[yavuzavsaroglu]

Why is number 27 important for ferrari?If you know please answer it.

[Punisher6]

GV's #?

[Vitesse2]

27 was GV's last number for Ferrari, but he ran for 2 seasons with 12 and one with 2 before that.

Just a theory, but could it have something to do with Enzo's or Dino's birthdays?

[yavuzavsaroglu]

But in 1987,1998,1989,1991,1992 and 1993 they used number 27 and 28.Also number of Ezo Ferrari's home was also 27.

[Gil Bouffard]

A simpler reason beside the fact that it was the last number on Villeneuve's Ferrari at Zolder.

When Jody Scheckter won the Formula One World Driver's Championship, The Ferrari numbers were 11 and 12. These went to the losing racing team. In this case, Lotus.

When Ferrari's Jody Scheckter was unable to succeed himself as World Driver's Champion, Ferrari gave up the numbers 1 and 2 for the numbers 27 and 28. These had been the numbers carried on the Williams when Alan Jones won the Championship.

The car numbering system was taken away from the organizers in the 70's. Up until that time the organizers of a particular Grand Prix used whatever numbering method they liked. Sometimes it was based on the first entry received. They used to mail the entries individually per event. Mainly because the factory teams would add or remove drivers at will. Additionally, privateers would not enter every race and if they did there might not be the same driver in the car.

Some GP organizers, used even numbers, some odd numbers. Some started their numbering sequence at 100. Some at 10.

When FOCA and FISA took the numbering system, there was a decision that the current World Champion would have number one and his teammate the number two. The rest of the numbers could be applied for by a racing team. Which explains Tyrrell running numbers three and four for so many years.

The plan was to give the departing Championship team the winning team's numbers. That's why Senna raced with 11 at Lotus and Villeneuve got 27.

The current rules state that the teams numbers shall be determined by their driver's points finishes at the end of the season. In other words as things are going this year, if Ralf Schumacher finishes as runnerup to his brother in the championship, his car will be number three and Montoya four, and so on and so on.

Gil

[William Dale Jr]

Originally posted by yavuzavsaroglu
But in 1987,1998,1989,1991,1992 and 1993 they used number 27 and 28.Also number of Ezo Ferrari's home was also 27.

Quick question, was Enzo's home also #27, or was that just his flat at Fiorano (that a certain M. Schumacher now uses - what would Enzo say?).

[Rob G]

Originally posted by Gil Bouffard

The current rules state that the teams numbers shall be determined by their driver's points finishes at the end of the season. In other words as things are going this year, if Ralf Schumacher finishes as runnerup to his brother in the championship, his car will be number three and Montoya four, and so on and so on.

Gil

Actually, that's not entirely accurate. The cars that receive 1 & 2 are the World Champion driver and his teammate for the upcoming year. The remaining numbers are allocated by the finishing order of the Constructors Championship.

[Gil Bouffard]

Rob,

You are right about the teams other than the WC. However, the champion is not the champion of the upcoming year but rather the champion of the past year or as I said, the current champion.

Thats why Damon Hill raced the number Zero after Prost won the championship and retired.

Michael Schumacher is the 2000 F-1 World Champion Driver. If he wins or rather amasses the most points over the racing season, he will be the 2001 F-1 World Champion Driver.

Gil

[mhferrari]

They used the 27 and 28 from the eighties until 1995. In 1996 they used 1 and 2 due to Michael Schumacher being World Champion the previous year.

[Jeroen Brink]

In the aftermath of that dreadful Sunday in May 1982: Was it not Nigel Roebuck who wanted that this number should be kept free in memory of his friend Gilles?

Besides, I think Ferrari attached/attaches much more importance to another number....;)

[Rob G]

Gil,

Of course you are right there. I had meant to say "defending World Champion and his teammate for the upcoming year." Otherwise, either F1 would be full of psychics, or the whole thing would be rigged!

[D82]

This was a question that made me wonder for years... Senna used number 27 in 1990 ,too(he was 2nd in 1989).

Another thing is about number 11 and 12. Ferrari used it till they became the champion in 1979. Then in 1988 McLaren used it. But if you look at McLaren, they used number 7 and 8 for years. And Williams used number 5 and 6 especially with Nigel Mansell(The Red Five!).
And one thing is about Damon Hill...Why did he use number 0 for two years?I think this is ridiculous because Wiiliams could use number 2 and 3 instead of number 0 and 2 in both 1993 and 1994.

I think every team has their lucky numbers, but number 27 has a special meaning...

[yavuzavsaroglu]

Damon Hill used number 0 because of Alain Prost.He retired after being World championship.So hill used #0.Number 1 couldn't used after WC retired

[D82]

I know it. What I wonder is: Why didn't Williams use number 2 and 3 instead of number 0 and 2?

[ebe]

@ D82

Your questions can be answered:

Senna used #27 in 90, because Alain Prost was champion in 89.
The champion of one year has number '1' on his car in the following year - whatever car he drives. Prost changed to Ferrari in 90, 89 he was driving a McLaren.
Senna stayed with McLaren. So while Ferrari with Prost had number 1 and number 2 (Mansell), McLaren was given the numbers Ferrari had in 89. They simply changed. So Senna had #27 and Berger - the other McLaren driver in 90 - had #28 on his car.

When Prost made his comeback in 93, the ruling F1 champion was Nigel Mansell, who became champion in 92. But Mansell left F1 to drive CART (and maybe because he did not want to drive with Prost in a team).
So the champion was not available, nobody could claim to have #1.
So the Williams team had to use #0 for Damon Hill and #2 for Alain Prost.

The same situation was given, when Alain Prost left Formula 1, so Hill had to drive on with #0 when Senna entered the Williams team.

In 93 it was somehow amusing, that the car with #0 won races, it was on place #1.....

[FLB]

I couldn't understand (I still don't) why they insisted on 0 for Hill in 1993.

The numbers became pretty systematic during the 1973 season. F1 in general became more centrally organized for 1974 (i.e. starting procedures, grid alignment, numbers, etc.). And because the 1973 WC had retired (Stewart), the Vice-Champion (Ronnie) got no.1.

There was a historical precedent for Heaven's sake!

[D82]

ebe, thanks for your reply but what I don't understand is silly zero! I know why they used it but I say that they could use #2 and #3 which are much much better. If I was Hill I would reject -the meaningless- #0.

[William Dale Jr]

I suppose 2 and 0 were used instead of 2 and 3 because they were less disruptive, i.e. if Williams had 2+3, Tyrrell would've had to change the 3 to a 4 and the 4 to a 5, Benetton would've had to change the 5 to a 6 and the 6 to a 7, you get the idea. It wouldn't have been too disruptive, but much more disruptive than doing it the other way

[Megatron]

Lotus used numbers one and two in 1974 after they won the constructors championship and Stewart had retired.

[John B]

In fact, when Villeneuve took Williams #1 to the grid in 1998 it was the first time they had that number on their car since 1983, despite winning titles in 1987, 1992, 1993, and 1996!!!

[LittleChris]

As I remember it, the reason they wanted no 27 retired was in memory of Gilles Villeneuve, however the Governing Body ( FISA- Just about - or whatever ) wouldn't accept it, presumably because they felt that no one was bigger than the sport.

There was also a previous request in 1978 that No 6 Ronnie Peterson's number be retired. I believe the Governing Body ( CSI this time ) took the same attitude for the same reasons, but were VERY unpopular for a long while.

Now that we've moved in to the era of the celebrity/ personality for a minute , it is interesting that CART have permanently retired Greg Moore's No 99.

This is in no way slagging off the memory of a great driver, but an attempt to show how things change over the years.

[Gil Bouffard]

Another thing to consider.

It is not Ferrari who think that 27 is important. It is the Ferraristas and Villeneuveistas who think it is important.

Now on to this CART thing. CART is not the INTERNATIONAL motorsport regulating authority, Therefore, if they want to retire a number they can. Like NASCAR, CART is only a national rules and sanctioning body and in that sense they do not have to follow FIA rules.

Some of us remember when Jean Marie Balestre refused to allow CART to race outside the borders of the North American continent!

Now on to another (for Americans, anyway) issue. When Greg Moore, a Canadian, died the US flag was flown at half staff during the race at Fontana.

Since Dale Earnhardt died the Flag has been flown at half staff at most Winston Cup races.

Both of these activities are in direct contradiction to the UNITED STATES FLAG CODE. Which states that ONLY the President of the United States can authorize (by proclamation) the lowering of the US Flag to half staff in memory of a person, or national tragedy.

There is also a set of guidelines in the code for the amount of time for the flag ceremony.

It does not give authorization to racing bodies, baseball teams, the mayor of any city or an individual to lower the flag to half staff for any reason.

I don't care if your favorite dog died or Great Uncle Bob or your Guppy. If there is no proclamation by the President of the United States, the flag flies high!

Converesly no organization, be it school board, Defense Industry company or McDonald's can ignore a proclamation by the President, that the flag be flown at half staff, and for the specified period.

As Don says, these things are allowed to get off topic sometimes.

Oh well.

The not so Goofy Gil

[William Dale Jr]

Sorry to keep the thread a bit off topic, but from what I understand, there aren't that many sanctioning bodies that retire numbers. In recent times, I can only remember 3 numbers being retired from motor racing series:

V8 Supercars - #05 - Peter Brock
CART - #99 - Greg Moore
MotoGP (500cc motorcycles) - #34 - Kevin Schwantz

In all three cases, those people used those numbers for a great number of years (in Moore's case, he was using it in karting AFAIK) and were synonymous with those numbers in those series.


In Villeneuve's case, it must be remembered that he had only used the #27 for two years in F1. In Peterson's case, AFAIK he had only used the #6 for one year. On that basis, retiring those numbers would've almost been tantamount to retiring #2 after Ayrton Senna's death.


Now also recently, many fans called for the retirement of the number 3 in memory of Dale Earnhardt. Now, NASCAR doesn't retire numbers. Even in the case of "The King" Richard Petty, when he retired in 1992, the STP Pontiac he owned was raced by Rick Wilson in 1993 carrying the #44 in place of the King's #43. However, when Petty found out that after a year of no use the #43 could be reallocated to another team, the number was quickly changed back... The same situation applies to RCR, who ran Dale Earnhardt. Earnhardt's #3 will not be used for the rest of the season (new driver Kevin Harvick using #29), but the #3 will have to return for 2002 if RCR wishes to keep it.


LittleChris, you're probably right when you say that the FIA, and for that matter most other governing bodies, won't retire a number because no one person is bigger than the sport. In NASCAR's case, I certainly believe that to be the reason. Well, that and if NASCAR retired a number for every great driver they had, they really wouldn't have many left


By the way, can someone please confirm if CART retired A.J. Foyt's #14, and if so, why did he continue to run his cars bearing the #14?

[Pete Stanley]

Just a little aside - When Jacques Villeneuve II started in CART in '94, he used the number 12. When he won the championship and the Indy 500 in '95, his car carried the number 27.