32 replies to this topic

[Graham Clayton]

Fellow racing fans,
Would anyone be able to pinpoint the last "privateer"
entry in a WC F1 GP?

By "privateer", I presume the following
circumstances apply:
a) someone who bought a car
from an established manufacturer, and ran
it using their own money and resources.
b) someone building and running their own car,
eg Merzario, Amon, Kauhsen, etc

I think the mid to late 70's might be
the approximate time, as since then you
have the 2 car teams which are either
manufacturer based, or else have huge
commercial support.

Any ideas?

[Zawed]

There was a guy named Emilio de Violetta or something similar who ran an old Williams in the very early 80s methinks...also Hector Rebaque ran Lotuses in 1979, moving onto his own Rebaque car in 1980. Does Zakspeed count; they built their own car/engine...

[fines]

Private entries in the sense of a) were banned under the Concorde Agreement of 1981. Somehow Villota got the Spanish authorities to accept his entry for the 1981 Spanish GP, but he was excluded by the FIA stewards as soon as he started practicing.

Private entries in the sense of b) are still competing, in fact I would think this description applies to ALL entrants in the 2001 World Championship!;)

[FEV]

Emilio de Villota is clearly the last privateer in F1, but maybe we
could say it was in 1982 that it happened. That year, March had a
two-car team under Rothmans sponsorship. But a third car was
entered in some mid-season european races for Emilio de Villota.
As often in his F1 career, he never qualified. As the Concorde
Agreement said privateers didn't have the right to be in F1 from
1981 onwards, so de Villota's March was not "officially" a private
entry. However, his car didn't have the same sponsorship as the
official Marches and the mechanics looking after his car were not
March's mechanics.

The true last privateer in F1 could have been Pirro in 1987.
Middlebridge wanted to run a Benetton B186-BMW for the italian
driver in european races, but FOCA didn't allow it.

Also, reagarding a). Maybe Lola builts but Larrousse entered F1
can be put in this category. It is not a private entry but neither a
factory entry. Same thing for the Reynard built but BAR entered
F1s of today.

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by fines
Private entries in the sense of a) were banned under the Concorde Agreement of 1981. Somehow Villota got the Spanish authorities to accept his entry for the 1981 Spanish GP, but he was excluded by the FIA stewards as soon as he started practicing.

Michael

I think that your statement contains at least two innacuracies. First, as we will see, the "ban" had exceptions. Secondly, Villota did not "got the Spanish authorities to accept his entry", but FISA did -under certain conditions. Finally it was not the FIA stewards who excluded Emilio, but the Spanish ones (conveniently instructed and pressured, I mean).

With your permission, I am moving a copy of this message to the specific Villota thread.

Felix

[petefenelon]

What about the John McDonald/Middlebridge/Trussardi Benetton-B186 that was kicked out of the paddock at the start of '87?

Looked gorgeous - the B186 was a handsome car and the black/white livery suited it much better than the Benetton "blue peter competition winner" job.

Can't remember the intended driver - Moreno or Pirro ring bells....

pete

[ensign14]

Originally posted by petefenelon
Can't remember the intended driver - Moreno or Pirro ring bells....

Pirro, I think. In the same vein was there not a vague rumour that a Japanese team planned to enter Geoff Lees in a 3rd Arrows in one of the early Suzuka races? Seem to remember something in Autosport to that effect.

As the rules state something along the lines that all cars must be different, would something like Scuderia Italia, who bought a car from Dallara, count as a privateer? If so I guess they would be the last. If not, then de Villota in 1982, subject to FEV's comments. If not de Villota, then it would still go to RAM, who entered Williamses in late 1980 for Rupert Keegan and a second car on occasion for Kevin Cogan and Lees right to the end of the season.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by ensign14
Pirro, I think. In the same vein was there not a vague rumour that a Japanese team planned to enter Geoff Lees in a 3rd Arrows in one of the early Suzuka races? Seem to remember something in Autosport to that effect.

As the rules state something along the lines that all cars must be different, would something like Scuderia Italia, who bought a car from Dallara, count as a privateer? If so I guess they would be the last. If not, then de Villota in 1982, subject to FEV's comments. If not de Villota, then it would still go to RAM, who entered Williamses in late 1980 for Rupert Keegan and a second car on occasion for Kevin Cogan and Lees right to the end of the season.

Larrousse was the last one to be b*ll*cked for running a proprietary chassis - despite the fact that world+dog knew that they were Lolas the FIA seemed to assume some sort of evil conspiracy to hide the fact they weren't building their own cars. So the team was stripped of its points and its place in the constructor's championship, and lost its FOCA benefits.

Of course, the fact that this benefited the well-connected Guy Ligier (friend of the FFSA, friend of Balestre, friend of the President etc., whose team had done approximately nothing on several times Larrousse's budget) and disadvantaged Larrousse (who had an unfortunate taste in business partners and was running British chassis....) is entirely coincidental, I'm sure.

I wonder how BAR the first BAR was - and how much was really done at Reynard!;) I mean, it even had a Reynard badge on the front at one point didn't it?

[Ross Stonefeld]

1995, Ligier

[AndreasF1]

Coppersucer (right spelling?) was owned by Fitipalldi and raced by himself as well. I think until 1979 or 1980.

[Racer.Demon]

Originally posted by ensign14
As the rules state something along the lines that all cars must be different, would something like Scuderia Italia, who bought a car from Dallara, count as a privateer?

I was under the impression that Dallara and Lola were at all times listed as the constructor and thus gained the constructor points - so nothing privateerish about that. The fact that "private" teams ran the cars didn't matter in this respect, as long as Dallara and Lola didn't sell their chassis to a second team. Yes, there was no reference to Lola or Dallara in the teams' official entry name but entry names could be anything. For instance Brabham entered as 'Fila Sport' in 1983.

The only snag here seems to be the switch at BMS Scuderia Italia from Dallara to Lola tubs and at Larrousse Calmels from Lola to "Venturi" (am I right that was just a badge for their own cars?) and then Larrousse. They kept the same starting numbers - did they also get to keep the travel bonuses gained by "Dallara" and "Lola"? I wasn't paying too much attention at the time...

[Haddock]

If I remember rightly, Larrousse were stripped of their points because in the entry form, they described the cars as Larrousses, rather than Lolas. In other words, not because they were bought chassis, but because they hdn't declared them as such. At the time, I think the team pretty much admitted this was an administrative error on their part.

And yes, of course, Ligier were the main benefactors in that Larrousse's demotion meant that the Ligiers didn't have to prequalify (something they would probably have struggled to do against the 1991 Jordans and Brabhams, I dare say). As an aside, immediately prior to setting up his own tem , Gerard Larrousse had been the Team Manager at Ligier, having left Renault at the end of 1984 (where he was replaced by Gerard Toth, who later went to prison for defrauding Renault of the money earned on the Tyrrell engine deal.....)

I might be wrong, but I think the 1992 Venturi Larrousses were actually designed by Robin Herd in England, who was working for....not Lola, but Fomet, at the time. The 1992 Lolas were in effect alternate Fondmetals, I guess. Venturi had a 65% share in Larrousse at the time, which they sold to the Comstock Group.

Oops bad move.

Comstock turned out to be a front for wanted criminal Rainer Waldorf and the deal unraveled when
Waldorf died in a gun battle with German Police. Which was the beginning of the end for the French team.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Haddock

I might be wrong, but I think the 1992 Venturi Larrousses were actually designed by Robin Herd in England, who was working for....not Lola, but Fomet, at the time. The 1992 Lolas were in effect alternate Fondmetals, I guess. Venturi had a 65% share in Larrousse at the time, which they sold to the Comstock Group.

I think that's not far off! -- as far as I recall, the MVS Venturis were by Herd's Fomet studio, as was the Fondmetal car that Rumi's team were running. Rumi's team of course had apparently bought a TWR design to replace the one from the design studio he'd lost, which is sort of amusing given that Tom was involved with Benetton at the time.....

There really is nowt so queer as the ins and outs of the "wide awake club" in F1 circa 89-92.

pete

[Haddock]

There really is nowt so queer as the ins and outs of the "wide awake club" in F1 circa 89-92.

I've often thought I might like to write a book about that. I've got about 10,000 words lying around on my machine on the subject, and it barely scratches the surface - just an introduction really. No mention of the Carlo Chiti and Enzo Coloni's farcical joint effort which was pretty much a de-facto defrauding of Subaru, so awful was the pup they had sold them.

And the same can be said in reverse of the Footwork Porsche fiasco

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Haddock
(where he was replaced by Gerard Toth, who later went to prison for defrauding Renault of the money earned on the Tyrrell engine deal.....)

Comstock turned out to be a front for wanted criminal Rainer Waldorf and the deal unraveled when
Waldorf died in a gun battle with German Police. Which was the beginning of the end for the French team.

I don't remember all this! What with van Rossem and Calmels as well, was F1 the biggest concentration of high-powered criminals outside Sicily?

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by ensign14


I don't remember all this! What with van Rossem and Calmels as well, was F1 the biggest concentration of high-powered criminals outside Sicily?

Lord Hesketh was about one step of the taxman at the end of his time as an F1 team principal, but that doesn't stop you later becoming a government minister and major figure in the BRDC. And of course the judge said Chunky would've been sewing mailbags had he not done an Elvis in '82.

Of the early 90s crop, how about Cyrille de Rouvre (Ligier and I think AGS at some point), Joachim Luhti (Brabham), Akira Akagi (Leyton House), and Ted Ball (Lotus, Brabham, probably many others too)? A bunch more fraudsters for you. Akagi's fraud was so big and complex (I think we're talking billions of Yen) that he ended up poacher-turned-gamekeeper for Japan's fraud office, I think!

Having just read Perry McCarthy's autobiography he's fairly careful not to imply that Andrea Sassetti was a crook - but Pel's implication is that he's no angel.

On the other hand, we have had team owners who've been on the right side of the law - Roy Winkelmann (mostly - some of his businesses were a bit Ron Harris, I've heard) and Don Nichols both apparently had impeccable undercover connections with certain Three Letter Agencies....

pete

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by petefenelon


Lord Hesketh was about one step of the taxman at the end of his time as an F1 team principal, but that doesn't stop you later becoming a government minister and major figure in the BRDC. And of course the judge said Chunky would've been sewing mailbags had he not done an Elvis in '82.

And thinking about that era, I've heard that Ken "the Grobfather" Grob, who was one of the guys who took over Ron Dennis's first F1 project, wasn't exactly a saint in his career as a Lloyds underwriter.... Can't remember any more details though I seem to recall he fell from grace later on.

pete

[ensign14]

Originally posted by petefenelon
Ken "the Grobfather" Grob

Honourable mention to Vic Lee, bringing F1 style operations to the BTCC...

[tam999]

Speaking of criminals in motor racing: Wasn't IMSA in the 1970s referred to as the "International Marijuana Smugglers Association"?

Tam McPartland

[Amazin]

Originally posted by petefenelon


Lord Hesketh was about one step of the taxman at the end of his time as an F1 team principal, but that doesn't stop you later becoming a government minister and major figure in the BRDC. And of course the judge said Chunky would've been sewing mailbags had he not done an Elvis in '82.

Please explain this to me (as a non English-native speaking):
What really does "doing an Elvis" means ?

Amazin

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Amazin


Please explain this to me (as a non English-native speaking):
What really does "doing an Elvis" means ?

Amazin

translation: Colin Chapman would've been serving a long prison sentence if he hadn't died (under circumstances that some people think might have been just cover for disappearing).


pete

[Geza Sury]

Originally posted by Haddock
As an aside, immediately prior to setting up his own tem , Gerard Larrousse had been the Team Manager at Ligier, having left Renault at the end of 1984 (where he was replaced by Gerard Toth, who later went to prison for defrauding Renault of the money earned on the Tyrrell engine deal.....)

Could anyone say something about Gerard Toth? I'm especially interested in his background. I'm just about to start writing an article about the history of Renault in F1 for a Hungarian specialist magazine, and as the name of Toth sounds pretty much Hungarian, his background might interest the readers. I tried to search the Internet, unfortunately without real success. Neither of the books I have contain any info of Toth, although I am yet to purchase the new one by Gareth Rogers. Any help would be useful!

[JohnS]

Originally posted by petefenelon


translation: Colin Chapman would've been serving a long prison sentence if he hadn't died (under circumstances that some people think might have been just cover for disappearing).


pete

So he's in deepest Africa playing cards with Lord Lucan?

[Terry Walker]

oh no, it's bettere than that. He had plastic surgery to resemble Bernie E, quietly bumped him off, and is now running F1.

[Mike Lawrence]

Pete Fenelon is right about Akuri Akagi, formerly of Leyton House. As I understand it, the fraud he committed was so complicated he was able to negotiate a reduction in his sentence by telling the authorities how he did it. I believe that the convictio/acquittal ratio in Japan would even be admired in Texas.

I once heard, probably a tissue of lies, which claimed that Akagi was actually Korean, which is not a social advantage in Japan. He reckoned, so this story goes, that if he could do something really wonderful for Japan, like win a Grand Prix, then doors would open. It was like building a wing of a local hospital, something a rich man can do to earn Brownie points.

A story I heard about Didier Calmas is that the missus arrived home one day to find him in bed with one of the team drivers. She threw a strop and took sharp implements to all his silk shirts, Armani suits and so on. He shot her.

One thing that interests me is number of cases to have come to court which have involved wronged wives who have taken it out on their husband's wardrobes. Murder I can understand, but I just don't get the wardrobe thing.

[Mohican]

All this is very interesting, but to get back to the "privateer" issue:
what about the Euroracing Alfa Romeos, sponsored by Benetton ?

In this case, the entire works team was transformed into a privateer team. Is this the only case of such a change happening ?

Project Four becoming McLaren International was really the other way round.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Mike Lawrence

A story I heard about Didier Calmas is that the missus arrived home one day to find him in bed with one of the team drivers. She threw a strop and took sharp implements to all his silk shirts, Armani suits and so on. He shot her.

One thing that interests me is number of cases to have come to court which have involved wronged wives who have taken it out on their husband's wardrobes. Murder I can understand, but I just don't get the wardrobe thing.

I tried on an Armani suit on my first business trip to Milan a decade or so ago. You wouldn't need scissors to take the thing apart; a stiff breeze and it'd be in pieces, I reckon. Then again I believe that an Englishman and his tweed jacket should very seldom be parted. Anything you can't do in tweeds and brogues should be left to the servants.

Did Euroracing do anything more than Italian F3 in the two years between the end of the arms-length Alfa deal and the merger with Brun? (or did it take two years to build the underwhelming Eurobruns?) It's curious and vaguely sad to think of the Alfa GP legend dying out with Euroracing on the chassis side and Osella a few years later on the engine side!

[Bondurand]

Originally posted by FEV
Emilio de Villota is clearly the last privateer in F1, but maybe we
could say it was in 1982 that it happened. That year, March had a
two-car team under Rothmans sponsorship. But a third car was
entered in some mid-season european races for Emilio de Villota.
As often in his F1 career, he never qualified. As the Concorde
Agreement said privateers didn't have the right to be in F1 from
1981 onwards, so de Villota's March was not "officially" a private
entry. However, his car didn't have the same sponsorship as the
official Marches and the mechanics looking after his car were not
March's mechanics.
.

Back to topic :

after som research, it appears that this 1982 entry was in fact the last privateer of F1 history. Emilio tried to pre-qualify in Belgium, Monaco, Detroit, Canada, Netherlands and succeded twice in Detroit and Canada, only to fail to qualify.
The official entrant was "LBT Team March" while the works team had "March Grand Prix Team"

Does someone remembers what were the sponsors? What was the color scheme?

Now that we have a Spanish World Champ, maybe some history of former spanish pilot had beend published somewhere?

[Herbert]

It's the only picture I've ever seen of that car. Do not know the source...

[Bondurand]

Originally posted by Herbert


It's the only picture I've ever seen of that car. Do not the source...

Well... the only thing that is clear is that is not the works' Rothmans livery...

Who have a good enough memory to remember us what the color was?

[ensign14]

It was black. Black like the endless blackness of space that leads to the chasm of clams.

[Macca]

I think we'd better go home now, Johnny..............




Paul M

[Barry Boor]

Continuing poor performances from the Blues are clearly affecting Ensign's mind....