18 replies to this topic

[Michael Müller]

Targa Florio / Giro di Sicilia, April 3-4, 1948, the "aristocratic team" Count Soave Besana and Count Bruno Sterzi finish 6th with a Ferrari 166 Spyder Corsa. Anybody able to name the race number?

[Michael Müller]

Really nobody?

[Barry Lake]

I am still thinking about where I might start looking!

I have some books on the Targa Florio, but they are not very detailed. I doubt they would have the numbers, unless they just happen to have a photograph of that car.

[Barry Lake]

Michael

I just had a look through my Targa Florio books, including some in Italian and the Brooklands books one that has the old magazine article reprints, but found nothing.

The various Ferrari books are another possibility, but there are probably more than 100 of those and some are difficult to get to.

I will keep it in mind, see what I can come up with.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Ditto!

[Michael Müller]

Let me tell you the reason for my question. The photo below is from the website of the Ferrari Club Forli and is said to show the 1949 Targa Florio winning Ferrari 166 SC with Biondetti / Benedetti.



However, the Biondetti car in 1949 was chassis no. 006I, which looked different, and it had race no. 256, whereas the number on this car seems to be 244 or 344 (anyone out there with really good eyes?). 4 other Spyder Corsa participated in the 1949 TF, but all of them should have looked different from the car on the photo, and for 2 of them I know the race number (346 and 337). The car on the photo in my opinion looks more like one of the early SC, 002C or 004C, which both were not present in 1949. The Sterzi-Besana car of 1948 is reported as # 010I, but I’m still looking for an explanation, why Besana didn’t use his own car # 004C, which was supplied by the Ferrari factory already 2 weeks before the race. If the race no. of Sterzi-Besana in 1948 was really 244 or 344, then it is obvious that the both counts used Besana’s 004C, and not Sterzi’s 010I.
On the other side, of course it may also possible that the photo shows one of the Ferraris from 1949 where I have no race numbers, because 346 and 337 make of potential 344 very good possible, and the Targa that year in fact was wet. I can exclude # 012I, which in fact received new bodywork during the winter 1948/49, but completely different from that on the photo. So, as the race number above in my opinion is neither 346 nor 337, the only remaining potential possibility for 1949 would be # 014I, driven by Bianchetti (DNF), which means that this car also received new bodywork, although it is difficult to believe that Ferrari went back to the crude from of the early Spyder Corsas.
And what about the guy with the white dust cap and the beard? Could be Sterzi, but I’m not sure.

[Barry Lake]

Michael


I don't have your intimate knowledge of the Ferraris of the era. However, that number is almost certainly 344, which fits closely with your other 1949 numbers. Also, if the 1949 race was wet...

Don't be too quick to rule it out as a 1949 photograph.

It's a difficult task you've taken on there, but interesting and fun also - especially when you find the answers to tricky problems such as this one.

As I said, if no-one else comes up with the answer in the meantime, I will keep it in mind when looking through books and magazines of the era.

[Michael Müller]

Barry, of course I do not rule out 1949, quote "of course it may also possible that the photo shows one of the Ferraris from 1949".

[alessandro silva]

Positevely Sterzi did not have a beard at least in 1949.
Less positevely: didn't "Pr. Igor" Troubeztkoy have a beard? (just to muddle things a bit!).
From eyesight it looks also as Bianchetti's SC.
A question: which licence did Troubeztkoy hold? (French, Italian?)

[Michael Müller]

Alessandro, Sterzi had a moustache only, but the dust cap and the goggles look like his. See photo below showing him at Vercelli 1948.



Unfortunately did not know how Troubetskoy looked, but in 1949 he was not racing anymore, and in the 1948 TF he had # 001S and no SC. I do not know which licence he had. But one thing is clear, the photo in question in fact has been taken at a Targa Florio, which confirms the 2nd photo of the same car:



Bianchetti acc. to my files had telaio # 014I, which at least in 1948 looked different. Below 2 pics showing Sommer at Reims and Nuvolari at Bari, although it is not confirmed that this is # 014I, it should have looked at least very similar resp. identical.
Additionally, the photo above looks like the finish, and Bianchetti was DNF.





Behind Nuvolari one can see Landi with 002C, which has a more rectangular grill and a semicircle-shaped air-scoop, and therefore looks similar like the car on the photo in question. Unfortunately we are still missing photos from 004C, but it is reported that it was very similar in shape to 002C.

So, you can see that I invested already a lot of thoughts into this photo, but could not find the solution. I also mailed 2 times to the Ferrari Club at Forli sking for details about the origin of the photos, but no reply. I believe a clear identification is only possible with the help of 1948 and 1949 complete starting numbers.

[alessandro silva]

By Angouleme 1949, Sterzi had shaved his moustaches. The goggles could be the same.

[Michael Müller]

And at Garda, 1 month after Angouleme, it was there again ...!



Alessandro, does the photo from Angouleme show Sterzi's car also?? Heavyly interested to have it then!

[Paul Medici]

Michael
I found a more complete image of the one you posted above.
The Franco Zagari photo from "Ferrari Automobili 1947-1953"
shows the checkered flag being waved in the extreme right portion of the photo and says it is Biondetti. I can 'BMP' it to you if you wish.

To my untrained eye the 166(SC or Inter depending on who you talk to) looks very much like the one in the Club Forli photo.

Imagine how much MORE fun this would be if all 166s had identical bodywork


Best Regards,PJM

[Michael Müller]

Hi Paul, which photo do you mean, that of the Targa taken at the finish? Probably yes. So, if someone is waving the checkered flag, it means the race is over. So it could not show Bianchetti, as he didn’t finish. If the photo says “Biondetti”, is there also a year mentioned? Must be 1949, as the year before he was with Troubetskoy in 001S.

Both photos originally are from the Ferrari Club Forli site, and are claimed to show both the winning car of Biondetti / Benedetti at the 1949 TF. May be their source is also Zagari, and may be Zagati is not correct (sorry, but we spotted already various wrongly titled pictures in even highly professional books!). Originally I linked only the first photo (that at the bend in the mountains) directly to their site, because there the race number fragments could be seen better than on the picture in my archive. 2 days ago I realized that the picture did not load, maybe due to troubles with their server, so I exchanged it against my own version.

However, the question remains. Ferrari specialist David Seielstad gives race number 256 for the winning car, don’t know the source, but I know that he is working very accurately and wherever possible he uses period photos. And the number of the car on the photos obviously is 244 or 344. So let me sum up the whole thing again.

Targa Florio 20 March 1949:

Sterzi / Monari, race no. 346, car unknown. Could probably be last Scuderia Inter race for # 010I, before sold to Folland, who used it first at Goodwood 4 weeks later. Could also be the Besana # 004C, which had been sold to Mosters at an unknown date, but first appeared under this new owner at the MM on April 22-23. Theoretically possible is also # 002C which was still owned and raced by Besana, but why should he give it to Sterzi? Exterior of the car on the photos reminds to 002C / 004C, but clearly the last digit of the race number is a 4. And if really # 010I – which is most logical car for Sterzi as it was his race partners car who stopped racing end of 1949 - , this looks different before and after the Targa. So most probably we can exclude Sterzi.

Vallone / Sighinolfi, race no. 337, car # 008I. Car looked different before and after the Targa, race number does not match, and car did not finish. So totally out of the game.

Bracco / Maglioli, race no. unknown, car # 012I. Car looked different before and after the Targa, and also DNF. So out of the game too.

Bianchetti / ?, race no. unknown, car # 014I. Car had different body in 1948, but have no info for 1949. But as said earlier, would be surprised if Ferrari for rebodyings would have used their crude 1947 design. And, Bianchetti did not finish, so we also can exclude him.

What remains? Car # 016I was in America already, so we can drop it. Remains only # 006I, the second Scuderia Inter car, driven to victory by Biondetti / Benedetti. But race number is reported as 256!? 006I looked different in 1948, but no details known for 1949. The car had been sold to Luigo Bordonaro, who entered it in Italian hillclimbs. Anybody having a photo accidently?? So may it be that the reported race number 256 is not correct, and it was in fact 344? So, who of you guys is sitting on the original entry lists???

Quote “Imagine how much MORE fun this would be if all 166s had identical bodywork”.
Luckily not, otherwise we would see auctions for # 018I, 020I, 022I, ....!

Paul, is it possible to have some more details about Franco Zagari’s book?

[Paul Medici]

Michael
The authors of the book I mentioned are Millanta, Orsini and Zagari. To my surprise I found the photo in a letter to CAVALLINO (#99 - July 1997) while reading about early Targa Florio events. I'll send it to you for your review. After my post I enlarged that area and although there is a checkered flag waving,....well you take a look and tell me what you think.
Best Regards
Paul

[Michael Müller]

Paul, thanks for the photo, but unfortunately it's very small, and enlarging cuts the quality considerably. However, my impression is that the checkered flag is not waved, but kept in position for things to come. I was surprised already about the rather pathetic behaviour of the spectators, whereas on other period photos showing winning cars at the finish people are applauding, throwing their hats into the air, and so on. So, can it be that we see the start here?? Also 1949 the TF was a Giro di Sicilia, meaning one lap around Sicily only, so this line crossed only twice, at start and at finish.

[Martin Krejci]

Quote

Originally posted by Michael Müller

Targa Florio 20 March 1949:

Bianchetti / ?, race no. unknown, car # 014I. Car had different body in 1948, but have no info for 1949. But as said earlier, would be surprised if Ferrari for rebodyings would have used their crude 1947 design. And, Bianchetti did not finish, so we also can exclude him.

[/B]

Michael, I don't know missing race numbers but with Bianchetti raced with Ferdinando Righetti.

In 1948 TF I have Soave Besana's car as 004C? (is that ex 159-3C?) but possible is also 010I. But 010I (ex 01C) I have for Nuvolari/Andrea Scapinelli (entrant Troubetskoy?) DNF. Another Ferrari of Gabriele Besana and Freddy Zehender could be 002C (is that ex 125-1C?) entered by Scuderi Inter. Once I have seen also reference to another car entered by Scuderia Inter and driven by Bruno Sterzi before he drove with Besana. It seems to be crashed in practice. I have no idea about identity of such car I wonder to believe it. Anybody can correct it?

[Michael Müller]

Martin, thanks for “Righetti”. The mentioning of # 004C for Besana and 159-3C leads to the conclusion that your source – or the source of your source – is the late Stanley Nowak. Nowak in 1966 published an article in Road & Track about the restoration and the history of # 004C, and thanks to Tom Berge (tombe) I finally now have a copy of this, knowing its content up to now only second hand. Don’t want to go too much into detail here, but Stan was very creative making car histories fit to his cars, and not the other way round. He is also the origin of that mystic Ferrari # 03C, which never existed acc. to actual research. He simply based it on the fact, that the factory confirmed 3 cars built in 1947, so after 01C and 02C should follow 03C. But car no. 3 in fact was # 002C. Nowak also is the source that Soave Besana drove his own # 004C at the 1948 TF, but common knowledge today is that Besana was co-driver with Sterzi in Scuderia Inter’s # 010I, and not Sterzi passenger in Besana’s # 004C. However, the photo in question here in this thread is the reason for me to research this topic again, as there is a rather small chance that good old Stanley was right on this point. Nevertheless astonishing, how 35-year old statements survive till today!
The same for Nuvolari/Scapinelli and # 010I at the 1948 TF. Martin, I believe I know your source, but also “Barchetta” makes stupid mistakes ...! They copy-pasted the line of the 1948 MM entry, and forgot to edit it!! Heaven, unbelievable how even such stupid mistakes are carried further!
Gabriele Besana with his # 002C was in South America at that time, and Goffredo Zehender was only team manager of Scuderia Inter, he stopped active racing. And sorry to say, there was never a 125-1C, only a tipo 125 # 01C, which was the first Ferrari, and which is believed to have been renumbered and rebodied to tipo 166 SC # 010I, and a 1949 Grand Prix car numbered 125-C-01.
And the car crashed in practice – my files say testing by Zehender – was # 006I, the second Scuderia Inter car. Due to this crash Sterzi then drove Troubetskoy’s # 010I, and the Prince had to take the muletto, the 159S road car # 001S, which finally won the race as all the “pure sang” cars had troubles with the local fuel quality.

[Martin Krejci]

Michael, thank you for your corrections. Sorry for these errors. My source was second-hand one, so I cannot confirm it. I wrote nearly all with '?' and all I didn't believe much.