14 replies to this topic

[harbin]

Does anybody know the difference between the engine in the Jordan Mugen Honda and the BAR Honda? I realize that one is factory and one isn't, but how close are they?

[Frazer]

Good question.

I just don't see why Honda would favour BAR over Jordan.

[130R]

I believe the Mugen is several development steps behind the Honda. This can be overcome, in the short term, by a better chassis and good drivers.

[Bruce]

BAR have Jacques Villeneuve driving for them.

[mono-posto]

Jordan was defintitely the more promising team. 1999 was great for them. 1 pole, 2 wins, 6 podium finishes and 3rd in both the WDC and WCC. That's far better than any other team (minus the two obvious ones). All mainly thanks to HH Frentzen. 2000 should be another good year. I don't see why not. So why did Honda throw full factory support behind BAR and not Jordan? Got me. All I can think of, which has been said on this board before, is that Honda will buyout BAR at the earliest conveinence and have a full factory team. BAR's failures weren't in the least due to Villeneuve IMO.

[IRISH]

The Mugan engine is three years old / the
Honda one is brand new.These are two seperate companies the son of the founder
of Honda runs the mugan outfit.The two
companies share technical info but this would be useless as both engines are totaly different.In the short -medium term
the mugan should be better.They will compete against each other this year ,and in my opinion if BAR struggle again Jordan
could steal their engine for next year.Honda will want to see results and wont hang around if they are not around the corner.Same goes for JV.
slan.

[Uncle Dave]

This question was raised at the time the BAR/Honda deal was done. In theory, the Honda engine is a step ahead of the Mugen one, but this is not the case at present.
Honda have been building the Mugen engines since mid 1994 (they built the new spec MF3518 that Herbert used at Monza in 1994 and Lotus esed for the remainder of the season) unofficially, but have been involved officially since 1998. The Mugen and the Honda are the same engine. Theoretically, BAR will get development steps ahead of Jordan, but EJ will have wangled some kind of deal to get the same spec' engines at the same time as BAR.

As to the point that the Honda engine and the Mugen engine are totally different, this was the case in 1991-2 when Honda switched from a V10 to a V12 with McLaren. Mugen then looked after Tyrrell's customer Honda V10s in 1991, and supplied the V10 to Footwork (92-3) and Lotus (94) badged as a Mugen-Honda.

[The Swerve]

Proberbly about a 0.9 secs I say. That BAR Honda won't be as quick as the Mugen till mid season.

[IRISH]

For sure these are two totally different engines!

[mtl'78]

the difference is probably $50 million...

[Loz]

They are definately not the same engine. The BAR engine is entirely new, it is the engine that was in development for the complete works honda team that was shelved mid '99. They would not have planned to give anyone else the same engine as their "complete" team.

In addition Honda will not walk away from BAR. They are contracted for 3 years. With the goal of winning the title in that third year. They signed with BAR for two primary reasons. 1-They have a strong and succesful relationship with Adrian Reynard, 2-BAR was very open to joint chasis development. The opportunity to develope a complete car was definately Honda's motivation to sign with BAR.

The fact they also recieved a driver, in JV, who can win the WDC if given the right car, was also a bonus. I figure if BAR can't get the chasis right, Honda will step up their involvment. As of the end of the contract I suspect, that Honda will buy the team from BAT(since tobacco sponsorship is on the way out). Then the first official complete works Honda team in years will win the titles in their first year.

(all with JV of course)

[yahoo]

BAR have 4 points, jordan have none.

[This message has been edited by yahoo (edited 03-14-2000).]

[Montre-AL]

BAR and Honda are blissfully married to each other - I wish you jilted Jordan guys would just GET OVER IT!! Move on - there are plenty of other fish in the sea. Why don't you court Renault or Toyota etc.... Quit stalking Honda she's in love and love ain't logical.;)

[Force Ten]

AFAIK they are not the same engine. For instance Mugen weighs 125 kilos and Honda about 100. So there is a lot of difference basing on that factor only.

[Laphroaig]

AFAIK they aren't the same. The weight difference is the best indication.
But I do think they share data, but the Mugen-Honda is developed by Mugen, and the BAR-Honda is developed by the team that also builds the VTEC's.

Mercedes could 'do' the same thing, run an Ilmor-Mercedes and an AMG-Mercedes.