53 replies to this topic

[SenninhaS]

Hi, I enjoy very much reading your discussion here.

I was wondering if anyone knows what was the biggest gap between the winning car and the runner up.

Also the biggest gap between pole position and the second. I only guess that gap is greatest at long circuits like the old Nurbergring but if anyone has statistics for various circuits I would find it most iteresting.

Thanks
SenninhaS

[Vitesse2]

Jackie Stewart (Spain 1969) and Damon Hill (Australia 1995) both won by two clear laps. A winning time margin would be more difficult to work out, unless both drivers were on the same (long) lap at Nurburgring, Spa or Pescara.

To kick off, Pescara 1957 was 3min03.9sec.

Mind you, the winning margin in the 1906 French GP was over 32 minutes .... !!!

[Gary Davies]

And of course, there was wee Jackie's famous Nürburgring win of 1968. 4 min 3.2 sec over Graham Hill.

Remarkable to recall that Jackie's huge lead was partly facilitated by GH spinning (whilst 2nd), having difficulty restarting, push starting the car, losing over a minute and still maintaining second spot!

I was at the Adelaide race of 1995 and though Damon drove very well, I recall that the strongest opposition fell away in droves on what was a pretty hot day. Hence the two laps.

Vanwall.

[Don Capps]

Gurney won at Rouen by two laps in 1962. Stewart was in the neighborhood of four minutes clear of Graham Hill at the GPvD in 1968. Moss was about five minutes ahead of Hawthorn in the 1958 GP of Portugal. And I am sure there are others, not necessarily just WDC rounds with similar margins.

And Vitesse beat me to the punch on the 1906 GP de l'ACF.

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Don Capps
Gurney won at Rouen by two laps in 1962.

No he didn't, it was only one

[Don Capps]

As you were, Roger is correct. This should teach me to trust my increasing failing memory for such things....

[Schummy]

About Stewart winning in Spain'69. That was the first F1 race I saw in TV when I was a child... If memory seves me well, it was a race of high attrition, just five cars getting points. That race we saw Hill and Rindt's Lotuses cracking their high wings in the infamous Montjuich high speed hillock when thay were leading. After that Amon lost his first position, as usual, with mechanical troubles in his Ferrari. This time Jackie won without really beeing in the picture, just inheriting the lead.

I suppose, the biggest gaps tends to happen due to mechanical adversities or maybe special accidents (as Montoya in Pau in F3000, the only F3000 race with one lap winning gap, I think). Also, we must have in consideration the length of the race and the length of the lap (if laps gaps are considered).

One interesting variation is the biggest % gap in pole. Here there isn't mechanical or accidental difficulties respect second qualifier (usually). I guess weather conditions sometimes can play a role, though.

[fines]

Regarding Montoya's second Pau win, it's true most of his rivals were stranded at Lycée for several seconds, but not Max Wilson who finished second, so his one-lap advantage is the real McCoy!

[Wolf]

Well, to anounce my return from banishment to furthermost provinces of Croatian Empire and self-imposed abstinence from all devilish contraptions I have overused during the year (read: cca. 7 weeks of holyday), I chose to dig this thread up... Well, as far as I remember, and being slightly biased and OT to top it all (;)), Moss won '59 Watkins Glen Formula Libre race with 7 laps lead, out of a 100 laps that were raced...

BTW, I did anounce my leave only in PC, guessing I won't be so sorelyx missed over here. I hope nobody minds...

[Graham Clayton]

Jack Brabham won the 1963 Austrian Grand Prix at Zeltweg by 5 laps from second place finisher Tony Settember.

[Tim Murray]

In the 1922 French GP Nazzaro's winning Fiat was around 58 minutes ahead of de Vizcaya's second-placed Bugatti, and a further 33 minutes ahead of Marco in third.

[Rob G]

In the 1926 French GP fiasco at Miramas, Jules Goux won by 15 laps, or roughly 47 miles. The second-place car, driven by Costantini, never crossed the finish line.

[Bloggsworth]

I was at the Adelaide race of 1995 and though Damon drove very well, I recall that the strongest opposition fell away in droves on what was a pretty hot day. Hence the two laps.

Vanwall.

To finish first, first you must finish. You can't damn the winner with faint praise for the ineptitude of other's. Presumably he was well ahead in any case.

[seldo]

In the Bathurst 1000km race of 1979, the legendary Peter Brock not only won by 6+ laps of the 6.2km circuit, but also set a lap record on the last lap whilst at the same time grand-standing to the adoring crowd with one arm out the window....
Even at his lap record pace of 2.21 and his winning final lap margin of 1m.26 over his 2nd placed rival, that gave him a winning margin of about 15mins....
Pretty tidy....

[cheapracer]

In the Bathurst 1000km race of 1979, the legendary Peter Brock won by 6+ laps

That was truly an amazing day, who would have thought watching a car win by so far could actually be interesting but it was.

[Ross Stonefeld]

To finish first, first you must finish. You can't damn the winner with faint praise for the ineptitude of other's. Presumably he was well ahead in any case.

It wasn't ineptitude so much as a strangely high attrition rate. You normally don't see a Footwork/Arrows on the podium in a dry race without a safety car, at least in that era.

[Tim Murray]

Yes indeed. There were only eight finishers, and towards the end Panis in second place was cruising around with his engine sounding as rough as a badger's arse.

[Bauble]

Biggest gaps?

Just watch Andy Murray at Wimbleydone!

You did mean between teeth, didn't you?

[Victor_RO]

1987 24 Hours of Le Mans, the #17 Porsche of Stuck/Bell/Holbert won the race with a 20-lap lead over the second-placed Primagaz Porsche. With a race average speed of 199.6 kph, and a 13.531 km circuit configuration, this equates to a winning margin of somewhere around 1h20min-1h25min.

[ryan86]

Something that always puzzles me is that Ligier team asked Panis to slow to let Hill past so he didn't need to complete another lap, but since Hill had lapped Morbidelli twice, surely it wouldn't have made any difference if Hill lapped Panis for a second time. IIRC Alesi, Coulthard and Barrichello all crashed out, Schumacher had someone drive into him and all the rest had mechanical gremlins.

[Allan Lupton]

Something that always puzzles me is that Ligier team asked Panis to slow to let Hill past so he didn't need to complete another lap, but since Hill had lapped Morbidelli twice, surely it wouldn't have made any difference if Hill lapped Panis for a second time. IIRC Alesi, Coulthard and Barrichello all crashed out, Schumacher had someone drive into him and all the rest had mechanical gremlins.

Don't know what event this refers to, but if Hill were the leader the race finished when he had finished his last lap. Panis, had he been just ahead of Hill, would have needed to complete that lap to class as a finisher, under rules as they were for some time, so perhaps if his team knew that could be a problem they wanted him to be lapped again to avoid that extra lap.
These days positions in effone seem to be awarded based on the number of laps completed, whether the car is running at the finish or not, whereas in normal racing a car had to take the flag within a certain specified time after the winner to count as a finisher. In the RAC MSA rules that is now only the case for races under 50 miles.

[DogEarred]

I recall seeing a piece of video film of a stock car race in the States, where a car flipped over the back stretch wall and landed on the moving flat-bed truck of a freight train.
Not sure of the outcome but potentially could have finished hundreds of miles away from the car in front..

[Ross Stonefeld]

I was thinking that, but I don't know what the finishing rules were in 1995.

At Brazil 1999 Frentzen was third despite not finishing his final lap because he was a lap ahead of 4th place. He started the final lap but conked out part-way around. However first and second crossed the finish line at the end of their final lap just behind him, and 4th place Ralf Schumacher crossed the line just behind them a lap down, thus preventing him from doing the few more corners that would have allowed him to overtake Frentzen, who was in practical terms within the same lap as him, though not in timing.

So maybe there was a change? Because otherwise for Panis, 'letting' Hill lap him only exposed him to attack from Morbidelli. Though his Wacky Racers oil spewing Mugen/Honda seemed to take care of that.

[Ray Bell]

The Australian Grand Prix of 1953 had a pretty fair winning margin...

Over five laps of a 3.0-mile circuit (Albert Park, same joint as they race today), five laps of 64 laps. Whiteford in the Lago Talbot beat Curley Brydon in a TC Special.

[Tim Murray]

Don't know what event this refers to, but if Hill were the leader the race finished when he had finished his last lap. Panis, had he been just ahead of Hill, would have needed to complete that lap to class as a finisher, under rules as they were for some time, so perhaps if his team knew that could be a problem they wanted him to be lapped again to avoid that extra lap.

The race in question is the 1995 Australian GP. The rule which said that you had to cross the finish line after the winner to be classified had not been in force for many years before then – one example would be the 1964 Monaco GP where Jim Clark was classified 4th despite being a non-runner at the finish.

I suspect that the reason Panis was told to let Hill lap him again was because his engine was running so roughly that they must have been worried that it might blow up in a big way, with possible oil spill chaos.

The case that’s always puzzled me is Gerhard Berger in the 1986 San Marino GP. He was given great credit for having the sense, at the end of the race, to slow up behind a low-on-fuel Prost and not unlap himself. However, by doing this he lost any chance of taking second position from Piquet. As people were dropping out like flies as they ran out of fuel, there must have been a good chance that Piquet might do the same, and Berger would have lost nothing if he himself had stopped on the last lap – he’d still have been classified third.

[Graham Clayton]

There was a gap of 21 minutes and 58 seconds between race winner Antonio Ascari and second place-getter Giuseppe Campari at the 1925 Belgian Grand Prix at Spa-Francorchamps.

[Graham Clayton]

Ned Jarrett won the 1965 Southern 500 NASCAR race at Darlington with a 14 lap gap (or a distance of 19.25 miles) back to second place finisher Buck Baker. This is still the largest margin of victory in NASCAR history.

[byrkus]

In 1970 24 hours of Daytona, the victorious Porsche 917K won by 45 laps, or by about 275 kms, which is probably about an hour and a half timewise...

[Stephen W]

1950 Monaco GP - Fangio was a lap ahead of Ascari and the rest.
1952 French GP at Rouen - Ascari was a lap ahead of Farina.
1952 British GP at Silverstone - Ascari was a lap ahead of Taruffi - second GP in a row that the winner won but a clear lap.
1953 Argentine GP at Buenos Aires - Ascari finished a lap ahead of Villoresi.
1954 Italian GP - Fangio was a lap clear of Hawthorn & Maglioli
1956 British GP at Silverstone - Fangio finished a lap ahead of the De Portago/Collins Ferrari.
1959 Portugese GP at Monsanto - Moss finished a lap ahead of Gregory
1962 French GP at Rouen - Gurney was a lap clear of Maggs
1963 Dutch GP - Clark was a lap ahead of Gurney
1964 Monaco GP - Graham Hill by a lap from Ginther
1966 Dutch GP - Brabham by a lap over Graham Hill
1966 US GP at Watkins Glen - Clark in the H16 powered Lotus by a lap from Rindt
1967 Monaco GP - Hulme by a lap from Graham Hill
1968 Canadian GP at Mont Tremblant - Hulme by a lap from McLaren
1969 Spanish GP at Montjuich Park - Jackie Stewart by TWO laps from McLaren
1969 British GP at Silverstone - Jackie Stewart won with Jacky Ickx one lap in arrears.

The last one I attended. There must be more by I have run out of time!

[Spaceframe]

Also the biggest gap between pole position and the second. I only guess that gap is greatest at long circuits like the old Nurbergring but if anyone has statistics for various circuits I would find it most iteresting.

The one I immediately thought of was the 1968 Belgian GP - Chris Amon's pole lap was done in 3:28.6, while second fastest qualifying lap was Stewart's 3:32.3 - that's a gap of 3.7 seconds (incidentally Ickx filled the last slot on the front row with a time of 3:34.3, while 3:35 was enough for the second row)

This was the race where Amon's Ferrari 312 sported an aerofoil for the first time - goes a some way to explain why he managed to beat his team-mate Ickx by nearly six seconds....

Also in 1968 Ickx bounced back at the Nurburgring, taking pole in 9:04.0 with runner-up Amon a full ten seconds behind at 9:14.9. Mind you, this was the wettest GP at the Nurburgring since WW II....

The longest circuit didn't produce the biggest gap between pole position and second fastest - at Pescara back in 1957 Fangio was on pole - 9:44.6 - from Moss (9:54.7).

I can't think of any bigger gap, at least in an F1 world championship GP, but perhaps there is a proportionally larger gap somewhere?

[D-Type]

When evaluating this data it is essential to take the circuit length into account.

For grid positions the sensible way to go is to take it as apercentage of the pole time. For the three examples quoted: the Spa difference is 2.7%, Nurburgring 2.0% and Pescara 1.7%

For races it's not so easy. Clearly laps should be converted to an equivalent time - But on what basis? Should we take a lap to be equivalent to the winner's final lap, the second place man's final lap, the average over the race distance or what? On top of that, the gap is actually "one lap [or two laps] plus [so many] seconds". Whether the rules required the second place man has to cross the finishing line or not also affects the answer. I think the simplest approach is to take a lap to be the equivalent in time of the winner's average lap time and if necessary fine tune it from there. It looks as if Jackie Stewarts 5 lap margin in the non-championship 1963 Austrian GP would work out as the winner for, shall we say, post war grands prix. Other races, such as 24 hour and other endurance races and the early long distance races is a different story. Probably a percentage of the winner's time would be the best comparison.

Has anybody thought about the Peking - Paris and New York - Paris races from over 100 years ago, Dakar etc.

[ryan86]

Mansell's poletime in 1992 at Silverstone was 2.4% faster than 2nd place.

[Lee Nicolle]

In the Bathurst 1000km race of 1979, the legendary Peter Brock not only won by 6+ laps of the 6.2km circuit, but also set a lap record on the last lap whilst at the same time grand-standing to the adoring crowd with one arm out the window....
Even at his lap record pace of 2.21 and his winning final lap margin of 1m.26 over his 2nd placed rival, that gave him a winning margin of about 15mins....
Pretty tidy....

Brocky made a habit of the quick last lap. i think he did it 2 or 3 times. Defenitly playing to the crowd while on a banzia lap was his trademark in those dominant days.
Wont happen these days with the pacecar finishing in the top 10!

[HistoryFan]

1950 Monaco GP - Fangio was a lap ahead of Ascari and the rest.
1952 French GP at Rouen - Ascari was a lap ahead of Farina.
1952 British GP at Silverstone - Ascari was a lap ahead of Taruffi - second GP in a row that the winner won but a clear lap.
1953 Argentine GP at Buenos Aires - Ascari finished a lap ahead of Villoresi.
1954 Italian GP - Fangio was a lap clear of Hawthorn & Maglioli
1956 British GP at Silverstone - Fangio finished a lap ahead of the De Portago/Collins Ferrari.
1959 Portugese GP at Monsanto - Moss finished a lap ahead of Gregory
1962 French GP at Rouen - Gurney was a lap clear of Maggs
1963 Dutch GP - Clark was a lap ahead of Gurney
1964 Monaco GP - Graham Hill by a lap from Ginther
1966 Dutch GP - Brabham by a lap over Graham Hill
1966 US GP at Watkins Glen - Clark in the H16 powered Lotus by a lap from Rindt
1967 Monaco GP - Hulme by a lap from Graham Hill
1968 Canadian GP at Mont Tremblant - Hulme by a lap from McLaren
1969 Spanish GP at Montjuich Park - Jackie Stewart by TWO laps from McLaren
1969 British GP at Silverstone - Jackie Stewart won with Jacky Ickx one lap in arrears.

The last one I attended. There must be more by I have run out of time!

Thank you. What about the GP before 1950?

[Stephen W]

Thank you. What about the GP before 1950?

Pass! I didn't have the records to hand at the time.

[Spaceframe]

When evaluating this data it is essential to take the circuit length into account.

For grid positions the sensible way to go is to take it as apercentage of the pole time. For the three examples quoted: the Spa difference is 2.7%, Nurburgring 2.0% and Pescara 1.7%

I've found an even bigger qualifying gap - at the 1956 Belgian GP Fangio's pole lap was completed in 4:09.8 while runner-up Moss spent 4:14.7. That's a gap of 1,96 percent. The gap at Spa in 1968 was 1,77 percent, while the gap at the Nurburgring in 1968 was, as stated, 2,0 percent and at Pescara in 1957 1,72 percent. So, the biggest gap between the first two qualifiers was at the 1968 German GP at the Nordschleife, both in percentage as in absolute figures.

EDit: ooops - Mansell's gap at Silverstone in 1992 is indeed bigger, percentagewise.

Edited by Spaceframe, 14 May 2012 - 10:55.

[sabrejet]

What about Bellof's qualifying lap at the Nurburgring (86?) I'm sure he still holds the outright lap record and I'm thinking he must have done it by a fair margin.

[LittleChris]

Bellof died in 1985 but his 6 min 11.13 secs laptime during practice for the 1983 1000km meeting at the old Ring was on a version of the Nordschleife which bypassed the old start finish straight, south curve, return straight & North curve ( which had been dug up due to the building of the new Nurburgring )and was around 1.2 miles shorter than the version of the circuit on which Lauda set the unofficial lap record of 6 min 58 in 1975.

2nd qualifier for the 1983 1000 kms was Jacky Ickx at 6 16.85 so I make the gap to Bellof's qualification time approx 2%

[Collombin]

Tommy Milton was 3.8% quicker than anyone else in qualifying for the 1923 Indy 500.

Second fastest qualifier Jimmy Murphy started from 9th place, but remarkably managed to lead the first lap. Milton won the race though.

[Michael Ferner]

Prewar IMCA Sprint Car racing probably throws up the biggest gaps in qualifying, with Gus Schrader or Emory Collins in huge 5.2-litre Offenhausers preying on local semi-pros in hopped-up Model Ts. Just checking a few at random, I found Schrader beating Revialo Rex at Algona in Iowa (Aug 20, 1941) by a whopping 15 % - 24.44" against 28.07". But then again, IMCA timing may have been bogus all the time, anyway.

Reminds me of Giacomo Agostini and his MV in the late sixties/early seventies, when he would often win races by a lap or two - he must've put some daylight between himself and the opposition in qualifying, too.

Edited by Michael Ferner, 15 May 2012 - 13:32.

[racinggeek]

In 1970 24 hours of Daytona, the victorious Porsche 917K won by 45 laps, or by about 275 kms, which is probably about an hour and a half timewise...

Not good enough for that particular race -- in the '79 Daytona 24, Danny Ongais, Hurley Haywood and Ted Field won by 49 laps on the 3.84-mile roval. They were in the latest Porsche 935/79, while second place (John Morton/Tony Adamowicz) were in a Ferrari 365 GTB Daytona.

[Graham Clayton]

I have just read that Hannu Mikkola and co-driver Jim Porter won the 1973 New Zealand Heatway Rally by over 40 minutes from teammates Mike Marshall and Arthur McWatt, both teams driving Mk 1 Ford Escort RS1600s. Is this the biggest winning margin for a modern national or international level rally?

[Ray Bell]

No, the London-Munich event had a much larger margin...

Several days, as I recall.

[Duc-Man]

Since I'v never heard of the London - Munich I looked it up on the web.

The second car was 'just' 28 hours behind. The last classified finisher had 28 days of penalty times collected.

19 cars were classified and only 5 of them completed the whole distance.

 

I read this and think to myself: why the hell would somebody do this?

[Glengavel]

Since I'v never heard of the London - Munich I looked it up on the web.
The second car was 'just' 28 hours behind. The last classified finisher had 28 days of penalty times collected.
19 cars were classified and only 5 of them completed the whole distance.

I read this and think to myself: why the hell would somebody do this?

It does sound crazy. I remember reading Evan Green's entertaining account of the event, 'A Bootful of Right Arms'. He took part in a Leyland P76.

[Ray Bell]

The best book on motor sport ever written, in my opinion...

And the leading car nearly got stuck on an icy climb up a mountainside just before the finish!

Duc-Man, if you read the book you'd understand why they did it.

[Lee Nicolle]

Peter Brocks  SIX lap win [about 40k] at Bathurst in 79 was equal too anyones records. And I believe fastest lap on the last lap too.

That was soon after winning the Repco Reliability Trial.

Ofcourse noone is allowed to set up wins like that now. The 'Safety Car' will come out to set up another restart if someone gets too far in front. Choreographed motor racing, not sport.

[Stephen W]

Peter Brocks  SIX lap win [about 40k] at Bathurst in 79 was equal too anyones records. And I believe fastest lap on the last lap too.

That was soon after winning the Repco Reliability Trial.

Ofcourse noone is allowed to set up wins like that now. The 'Safety Car' will come out to set up another restart if someone gets too far in front. Choreographed motor racing, not sport.

 

You do have to take into account the race distance & time to complete that distance. There must be Le Mans races where the winning margin was more than six laps!

[D-Type]

If we're going to include rallies,how about the 1965 Safari?  The Volvo of Joginder and Jaswant Singh finished 100 points, corresponding to 100 mins ahead of the Peugeot of Jaffray and Bathurst.

[Roger Clark]

In the 1922 French GP Nazzaro's winning Fiat was around 58 minutes ahead of de Vizcaya's second-placed Bugatti, and a further 33 minutes ahead of Marco in third.

 

And in those days you had to complete the full distance to be classified as a finisher.  It must have been enthralling to watch Marco for 90 minutes after Nazzaro had won the race.  Think of the viewing figures, Bernie.