55 replies to this topic

[RV_Canada]

Considering that Ross Brawn is more in the 'know' than the entire anti-JV crowd in this forum, I value his opinion, and his tacit defense of JV's performance vs OP will hopefully shut some people up:

"Some cars don't display the driver's abilities, and if there's a problem with the car two guys of different abilities will perform at the same level and it's hard to distinguish the ability of two drivers in a car that's not working very well. If the car's working very well then sometimes you see those differences more clearly."

[Smooth]

Can you give us the rest of the quote (ie: the context)? Just curious, as this sounds like a common sense statement.

[Hi Test]

From the Friday press conference:

Question: Jacques, your engineer Jock Clear has suggested that championship-winning technique only comes in small quantities and he went on to say this is possibly why you don't try to qualify ninth instead of eleventh. Do you agree and do the two guys who've worked with Michael Schumacher agree?

Jacques Villeneuve: It's nice to know that Jock believes I can go quicker but you always try and do your best. The way it's been going this year, we've never really been in a position to be competitive in qualifying and focusing on what we can do in the race, which still means that we need a lucky weekend to be in the top six.

Ross Brawn: It's difficult to separate the driver's input and the performance of the car. With Michael I've never known him to try less hard on one race than another, sometimes he does a better job than others but that's not for the want of trying. I think there are very few people who can drive a Formula 1 car very quickly in the way he can and my experience with him is that he very rarely has any bad days. I think it's a slightly curious observation and I'm surprised Jacques takes it so lightly because it tends to imply that he's not making the effort and I'm sure he is. Some cars don't display the driver's abilities, and if there's a problem with the car two guys of different abilities will perform at the same level and it's hard to distinguish the ability of two drivers in a car that's not working very well. If the car's working very well then sometimes you see those differences more clearly

[RV_Canada]

Hmm .. looking for a way to flame Jack afterall, are we?;)


Q: Jacques, your engineer Jock Clear has suggested that championship-winning technique only comes in small quantities and he went on to say this is possibly why you don't try to qualify ninth instead of eleventh. Do you agree and do the two guys who've worked with Michael Schumacher agree?

JV: It's nice to know that Jock believes I can go quicker but you always try and do your best. The way it's been going this year, we've never really been in a position to be competitive in qualifying and focusing on what we can do in the race, which still means that we need a lucky weekend to be in the top six.

RB: It's difficult to separate the driver's input and the performance of the car. With Michael I've never known him to try less hard on one race than another, sometimes he does a better job than others but that's not for the want of trying. I think there are very few people who can drive a Formula 1 car very
quickly in the way he can and my experience with him is that he very rarely has any bad days. I think it's a slightly curious observation and I'm surprised Jacques takes it so lightly because it tends to imply that he's not making the effort and I'm sure he is. Some cars don't display the driver's abilities, and if there's a problem with the car two guys of different abilities will perform at the same level and it's hard to distinguish the ability of two drivers in a car that's not working very well. If the car's working very well then sometimes you see those differences more clearly.

Please remember I said tacit approval. It's called 'reading between the lines'

[SlateGray]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RV_Canada
[B]Hmm .. looking for a way to flame Jack afterall, are we?;)


That is Smooth's mission in life!;)

[karlth]

Originally posted by RV_Canada
[B
"Some cars don't display the driver's abilities, and if there's a problem with the car two guys of different abilities will perform at the same level and it's hard to distinguish the ability of two drivers in a car that's not working very well. If the car's working very well then sometimes you see those differences more clearly." [/B]

A very curious statement by Brawn as only a few months ago, when talking about Schumacher vs. Irvine, he said that a good car can mask the difference between two drivers while a bad car lets the better driver shine.

[Lantern]

So, the same thing can be said of Button too, right?

[RaggedEdge]

Pat Symonds suggests Villeneuve is not motivated:

PaSy: I really don't agree at all, I don't think a driver has one good lap in him any more than a composer has one good song in him or an engineer has one good design in him. I think the ravages of time take it out of all of us, and the career of a swordsman is more limited than a more sedentary occupation but a good driver performs to the best of his ability whilst he has the ability and the motivation to do it and the ability will come down over time, motivation is affected by a lot of other things and maybe that's a more relevant point.

[Dr.Raj]

So basically Ross Brawn is saying that Jock Clear is an idiot. I agree.

[Lantern]

I just think that a "good car" would be one that can be adapted to a range of driving styles(neutral). A "difficult" car would be one that could only be driven one way, thus showing a false impression of the speed of two different drivers with contrasting style.

I believe this is what Brawn was saying.

The contrast in Panis' driving style to Jacques'(smooth to aggressive) would make quite a bit of difference if the car was negatively responsive to an aggressive style.

[RV_Canada]

Pat Symonds suggesting JV is not motivated based on his results is kinda like the pot calling the kettle black, no? Pat sure waxes poetic though ...

[Dr.Raj]

Originally posted by karlth


A very curious statement by Brawn as only a few months ago, when talking about Schumacher vs. Irvine, he said that a good car can mask the difference between two drivers while a bad car lets the better driver shine.

Drivers like MH and JV are not happy in cars that have problems. But given cars that they like, they are as fast as anyone. MS has the ability to set the car up in such a way that he can drive around the problems.

[KinetiK]

Originally posted by Dr.Raj


Drivers like MH and JV are not happy in cars that have problems. But given cars that they like, they are as fast as anyone. MS has the ability to set the car up in such a way that he can drive around the problems.

I would have to say you're exactly right for all three drivers Dr Raj.

[yukimi]

To all JV bashers, you all seem to forget the following:

When he first came up in F1 in 1996, if it was not for Frank Williams' order to let Damon Hill through, JV would have won his first F1 race. He had also won Pole for his first F1 race. Despite this and quite a bit of bad luck that year, JV challenged for the championship until the last race in Japan where he was hampered once again by bad luck. The rest is history, FW fired DH and JV won the championship in 1997 despite having the whole F1 establishment against him. Who can forget the silly fines and race ban imposed upon JV for yellow flags and forcing JV to fly to Paris to face F1 supremos during the week of a crucial Grand Prix? Come on, folks, let's be honest: the F1 establishment did not want this young superstar from the CART series to kick ass in their pristine F1 world and they tried everything in their power to stop him, to no avail.

Nowadays, it seems everybody is getting all humid over guys like Button or Montoya who have yet to do anything meaningful in F1. Montoya is very far from outqualifying his teammate as JV did right from day 1. He has yet to win a F1 race despite the fact that his teammate has won twice already with the same car. We all know what has happened to Button this year.

JV beat Michael Schumacher, Eddy Ervine and F1's establishment all by himself in 1997. Heinz harald Frenzen was of no help whatsoever to Villeneuve in the crunch. Eddy Irvine was let loose on JV to perpetrate all kinds of low blows race after race. Everyone in F1 turned a blind eye to these tactics. Not to mention MS shameful attempt in the last race of the year.

That's a fact and part of F1 History and nobody can take that away from JV.

As to Irvine's recent rantings and calling himself better than everyone else except MS, well, consider this: In all the years he was MS teammate, Irvine has always been relegated to the number 2 status. He was never able to beat MS more often than not being outclassed by half a second and more. Is it any surprise that he now claims to be better than everyone else except MS? This big mouth is at the end of his roll, has never won anything meaningful (Salo had to let him pass for one of his very few victories) and is more bitter than vinegar.

In conclusion, JV is and will remain, as long as he desires, the only real challenge for MS. MS knows it and fears JV getting a good car like the plague. Let's hope BAR can show meaningful progress next year or by the end of it, JV will finally be forced to accept the failure of this experiment and go back to strictly racing for the championship.

[chooch]

Here are the alltime greatest:
1.Yukima
2.Senna.

Thanks Yuks.

[RV_Canada]

yukimi

[yukimi]

Hey,

All I'm saying is that facts and the truth should also be given some credence from time to time...

[bigblue]

you're new around here aren't you? facts, ha!

[Smooth]

Originally posted by RV_Canada
Hmm .. looking for a way to flame Jack afterall, are we?;)

No, not at all. I just had not read the PC, and was curious the context of the statement. Thanks!

[Smooth]

Originally posted by yukimi
Hey,

All I'm saying is that facts and the truth should also be given some credence from time to time...

Facts? Or your interpretation of them?

JV beat Michael Schumacher, Eddy Ervine and F1's establishment all by himself in 1997.

Newey, Frank Williams, Patrick Head, Renault, and the entire staff of Williams GP Engineering would be glad to know they were of no help in JV scraping out a WDC against the best driver in the third best car of the year. MS f***ed up, and JV fans were given something to crow on about for all the years after, without questioning what JV is doing now, which is not much.

Facts my ass.

[yukimi]

Hey "Smooth", why don't you get a life!!!

Who ever got multiple fines and a race ban for silly yellow flags since JV in 1997? Newey in 1997? Patrick Head said recently that the William's car of 1997 had very little to do with Newey. Who are you to say otherwise? As for the Williams team in general in 1997, how many blunders did they make with tires, race strategy, etc?

Of course, a race driver must depend on his team, there's no doubt about that. The point I was making is that JV, in only his second year in F1, won the championship in the face of unprecedented adversity, against the wishes of F1's establishment. Can't you at least acknowledge this much or are you one of those nay sayers that still think the earth is flat?

Come on now, your blind adulation of MS aside, you must recognise this as the truth, no?

Hey, according to people like you, when MS looses, it's because he had a lesser car than everyone else. And when he wins, it has of course absolutely nothing to do with the fact that he has the team with the biggest budget in F1 fully vested in its efforts to support him and him only!

In my book, MS won only 1 championship so far, that of last year, as he stole his first one from Damon Hill with the exact same stunt that he tried to pull on JV in 1997.

Come on, man. Give it a rest!

[se7en_24]

Originally posted by yukimi
In my book, MS won only 1 championship so far, that of last year, as he stole his first one from Damon Hill with the exact same stunt that he tried to pull on JV in 1997.

Come on, man. Give it a rest!

hmmm I hate to side with Smooth ;) but Michael won the championship convincingly in 1995

[mtl'78]

Smooth, I think what he means was that in 1997 JV was often left to his own devices, on the track at least.

-Max and Bernie were firmly behind MS/Ferrari. Mostly because Ferrari were behind in pace. I don't believe in a pro-Ferrari bias, but I DO believe in a pro-exciting WDC bias. (91-94-97-99) they all intervened to affect the WC's.

-Irvine's main responsability on the track was to upset Villeneuve. It started with the T-bone in Oz and kept going through countless blocks throughout the season. To his credit, he was often quick enough to be in a position to actually assist MS...

-Williams and Patrick Head in particular were not very supportive of JV. Head still imposed his setups on JV until there was some friction at the French GP, after which JV was given more freedom. He also rejuvinated his WDC challenge in the last part of the season, and when the team pulled out the yellow whigs, it was as if to say "You were right". Head gained alot of respect after that and their relationship improved alot. They did not have any problems together in 1998.

- Another thing to remember is that the Williams pit crew was horrid. This was not new to the '97 season. Williams have always been weak in the pits, they still are today. In 1997 there were at least 5 instances where JV lost the lead during pitstops, but in Silverstone and Nurburging, Hakkinen's retirements gifted him back the wins...

Not to say that JV's WDC was more difficult than anyone else's, but he DID have an unusual amount to deal with. I haven't even made mention of the then constant references to his father and the "legacy".

[yukimi]

Opps, sorry for this one! You're right! I forgot about 1995!

[Smooth]

Originally posted by yukimi
In my book, MS won only 1 championship so far, that of last year, as he stole his first one from Damon Hill with the exact same stunt that he tried to pull on JV in 1997.

Come on, man. Give it a rest!

So even though MS saw more, and paid more dearly for, bullshit penalties in 1994 than JV will EVER see, he stole the WDC from Hill? Hill was nowhere near Michael in 1994, and 1995 proved that without the FIA being involved, Damon was a distant second, and only then because of the machine he was given.

How many points, in reality, did JV lose to penalties in 1997? C'mon now, the facts. The WDC shold not have been close. In my mond 1997 was MS best year of driving overall, and the fact that he chose to sully it sucks, but the fact remains that he was the class of the driving field that year, in what was probably the equal 3rd best car.

I think JV drove a more convincing year last year, and seems to have improved on a few areas, but this year he has taken a step back.

[yukimi]

Geeze, Smooth, I have to agree with you that JV seems that have slightly given up to frustration this year and, as a consequence, might have taken his game a litlle lower.

But who would'nt? I also agree with Jock Clear that given a good car with the chips down for a WDC fight, JV would quickly show us a half a second or more over Panis. Not that I don't like Olivier, but he is simply not in the same class.

In terms of racing, I tend to agree with the conventional wisdom that JV, Hakkinen and MS are the class of the field with Hakkinen the weakest mentally and MS the toughest.

JV is a different animal in that he has his own standards of comparison and would not be happy to win with the kind of advantage given to MS by Ferrari. I agree with Jock Clear on this as well.

[Dr.Raj]

Originally posted by yukimi
JV is a different animal in that he has his own standards of comparison and would not be happy to win with the kind of advantage given to MS by Ferrari. I agree with Jock Clear on this as well.

Have you spoken to JV about his standards of comparison?

"and would not be happy to win with the kind of advantage given to MS by Ferrari. "

Of course he wouldn't be happy, Williams were giving him a greater advantage.

If Ferrari were to offer him a seat today (with MS out ofcourse), there is no doubt that he will jump at the oportunity. Save us the BS about him not wanting an advantage.

[yukimi]

Well, Dr Raj, the BS you talk about comes from a guy who's been JV's race engineer for 5 years, Jock Clear! I think he might have some insights you and I don't have, don't you think?

I merely stated that I tend to agree with this given JV's general demeanour since he started racing in F1. Are you implying that JV had preferential treatment over Damon Hill or Frentzen at Williams or at BAR since then? I don't think so.

Being a French Canadian myself and having followed JV for a while, I tend to agree that Clear's assertions in this regard are representative of JV's personality. Nothing more, nothing less. As for Ferrari, JV has always said that he would go if he was given assurances that he would be given equal support and not be binded by contract to move over for the Kaiser. I do not recall reading anything else on this matter.

[Smooth]

Originally posted by yukimi
Well, Dr Raj, the BS you talk about comes from a guy who's been JV's race engineer for 5 years, Jock Clear! I think he might have some insights you and I don't have, don't you think?

I think Jock may have a lot of motivation to aviod taking any of the blame for JV's performance. If OP and his mechanics are so close, sometimes beating JV and Jock, he could be trying to make other excuses to avoid looking bad.


If you ask me, JV needs a clean start: New team, new engineer and management. I won't mention the hair.

[BlackGhost]

Originally posted by RV_Canada
Considering that Ross Brawn is more in the 'know' than the entire anti-JV crowd in this forum, I value his opinion, and his tacit defense of JV's performance vs OP will hopefully shut some people up:

"Some cars don't display the driver's abilities, and if there's a problem with the car two guys of different abilities will perform at the same level and it's hard to distinguish the ability of two drivers in a car that's not working very well. If the car's working very well then sometimes you see those differences more clearly."

What the hell does this quote have anything to do with JV?

[Dr.Raj]

Originally posted by yukimi
Well, Dr Raj, the BS you talk about comes from a guy who's been JV's race engineer for 5 years, Jock Clear! I think he might have some insights you and I don't have, don't you think?

I merely stated that I tend to agree with this given JV's general demeanour since he started racing in F1. Are you implying that JV had preferential treatment over Damon Hill or Frentzen at Williams or at BAR since then? I don't think so.

Being a French Canadian myself and having followed JV for a while, I tend to agree that Clear's assertions in this regard are representative of JV's personality. Nothing more, nothing less. As for Ferrari, JV has always said that he would go if he was given assurances that he would be given equal support and not be binded by contract to move over for the Kaiser. I do not recall reading anything else on this matter.

Jock Clear also happens to be JV's best pal. The man lacks objectivity. His comments about JV saving his talent because it's a commodity showed how insightful he really is. His comments mean nothing. Isn't he the same guy who said after Jerez, "we did him, we f***ing well did him"?
BIAS!!

He didn't have preferntial treatment over DH, Frank wouldn't allow it. He sure as hell gets preferential treatment at BAR, he basically calls the shots in that team.

[yukimi]

Smooth,

I think Clear is an honest chap. Although, I would have loved to see JV going to McLaren next year.

I was at JV's Newtown Restaurant on the Sunday of the Canadian GP and saw Ron Dennis coming in for dinner. I also saw Pollock's face change drastically at the sight of Dennis coming in... Although McLaren's team had officially been invited for dinner, Pollock made sure he was always close by to listen in...

That would have made things quite interesting for the WDC next year as I think Hakkinen can't stomach another real fight with MS emotionally and mentally. This year was quite revealing in this respect. David Coulthard tries as hard as he can but, unfortunately, I think he is lacking in many ways to challenge for the WDC. Dennis certainly seems to think so as well...

[Dr.Raj]

Originally posted by Smooth
If you ask me, JV needs a clean start: New team, new engineer and management. I won't mention the hair.

What hair??

[yukimi]

Dr Raj, I don't agree. Clear is not the type to blabber easily à la Irvine!!!

In any event, there are rumours going around that Clear could part with JV next year to go to Toyota. I have no clue whether this is grounded in facts or not?

[Dr.Raj]

Originally posted by yukimi
Smooth,

I think Clear is an honest chap. Although, I would have loved to see JV going to McLaren next year.

I was at JV's Newtown Restaurant on the Sunday of the Canadian GP and saw Ron Dennis coming in for dinner. I also saw Pollock's face change drastically at the sight of Dennis coming in... Although McLaren's team had officially been invited for dinner, Pollock made sure he was always close by to listen in...

That would have made things quite interesting for the WDC next year as I think Hakkinen can't stomach another real fight with MS emotionally and mentally. This year was quite revealing in this respect. David Coulthard tries as hard as he can but, unfortunately, I think he is lacking in many ways to challenge for the WDC. Dennis certainly seems to think so as well...

Thank God it wasn't me in that restaurant, me and Ron would have probably gotten in a fist fight.

I agree, it would be nice to JV in a top team once again. It's quite sad that he's wasting away at BAR.

[BlackGhost]

"Michael Schumacher would be dangerous in a shoping trolley." - Frank Williams, 1996.

Bet he'd be faster than everybody else!

[leegle]

It is only a small point but one that should not be forgotten when mention is made of that first race JV ran in. The reason he was told to give the lead to Hill was that he was covering his team mate's car with oil and they were worried that he might run low and blow his engine if he kept charging. He had hit a kerb and cracked something early in the race when he was trying to stay ahead of Damon.

[TheD2JBug]

Originally posted by yukimi
To all JV bashers, you all seem to forget the following:

When he first came up in F1 in 1996, if it was not for Frank Williams' order to let Damon Hill through, JV would have won his first F1 race. He had also won Pole for his first F1 race. Despite this and quite a bit of bad luck that year, JV challenged for the championship until the last race in Japan where he was hampered once again by bad luck. The rest is history, FW fired DH and JV won the championship in 1997 despite having the whole F1 establishment against him. Who can forget the silly fines and race ban imposed upon JV for yellow flags and forcing JV to fly to Paris to face F1 supremos during the week of a crucial Grand Prix? Come on, folks, let's be honest: the F1 establishment did not want this young superstar from the CART series to kick ass in their pristine F1 world and they tried everything in their power to stop him, to no avail.


JV beat Michael Schumacher, Eddy Ervine and F1's establishment all by himself in 1997. Heinz harald Frenzen was of no help whatsoever to Villeneuve in the crunch. Eddy Irvine was let loose on JV to perpetrate all kinds of low blows race after race. Everyone in F1 turned a blind eye to these tactics. Not to mention MS shameful attempt in the last race of the year.

That's a fact and part of F1 History and nobody can take that away from JV.

As to Irvine's recent rantings and calling himself better than everyone else except MS, well, consider this: In all the years he was MS teammate, Irvine has always been relegated to the number 2 status. He was never able to beat MS more often than not being outclassed by half a second and more. Is it any surprise that he now claims to be better than everyone else except MS? This big mouth is at the end of his roll, has never won anything meaningful (Salo had to let him pass for one of his very few victories) and is more bitter than vinegar.

In conclusion, JV is and will remain, as long as he desires, the only real challenge for MS. MS knows it and fears JV getting a good car like the plague. Let's hope BAR can show meaningful progress next year or by the end of it, JV will finally be forced to accept the failure of this experiment and go back to strictly racing for the championship.

HAHAHA... that makes me laugh. Lets get some facts straight.

In 1996 Jacques was driving a Williams , had 10s of thousands of kilometers of testing before the start of the season. Given this information and the fact that the Williams was easily the class of the field , where did you THINK JV was gonna finish in the WC?The worst he woulda finished would have been second. and Hill wasn't exactly that good either.

In 1997, JV BROKE the rules repeatedly regarding yellow flags ,and after the Suzuka incident where he was banned he raced under appeal ( after saying the rules were stupid because he was fighting for a championship ) and then got to withdraw the appeal only after he finished 5th and failed to take MS out of the race ( that chop coming out of the pits ) The FIA allowed it , despite the fact that he raced, which is like calling your penality after you served it .. He SHOULDA kept his 2 points and been banned for the Jerez GP , but Bernie wanted a title decider in the final GP , so he let it go to Jerez where Williams was allowed to get the open assistance of Mclaren . I don't excuse MS for his actions in this race , but if I were him knowing these things I'd have hit the little prat harder. Bottom line is that Jacques got the big assist from the FIA in his WC 1997.

You know with regards to comparing JV and Irvine , at least the Jag is moving forwards . JV whines and gets his butt whupped by Panis.

In conclusion , JV isn't THAT good to be compared to MS in any respect.

[yukimi]

TheD2JBug,

Wow, that's a lot of crap, Man. There should have never been a race penalty for a yellow flag to start with, especially not in a thight WDC race. Mosley/Ecclestone have been harassing JV all of 1997 to culminate with this unheard of race ban. As for your comment concerning the shameful MS shunt at Jerez, it just shows your bias, and should I say, hatred.

There was indeed a "decider race" for the 1997 WDC and JV beat MS fair and square for it. You're trying to rewrite history, my man. As for McLaren so called help of Williams at Jerez in 1997, you're way out to left field. It was JV who moved over at the end of the race to let Hakkinen win his first GP.

Above and beyond one's preferences for one driver or team over another, one should not try to so blatantly distort the facts.

Shame on you!

[arcwulf7]

I've never had much doubt that Jacques had the raw talent to achieve greatness in f1. But that is not as rare as it seems, BUT it is rare. The trick is to put it in a package that can MANAGE his career in a way that puts aside the distractions and concentrates on success. I've seen little of Jacques from that stand point. There seems to be lacking the fire in the belly for winning -- the $$$ sign is all over his decision making. Okay -- so it is in Michael's too, but Michael is winning -- he doesn't have to make compromises -- Jacques is NOT -- and he seem to think that is just part of the GAME.

[Smooth]

Originally posted by yukimi
TheD2JBug,

Wow, that's a lot of crap, Man. There should have never been a race penalty for a yellow flag to start with, especially not in a thight WDC race. Mosley/Ecclestone have been harassing JV all of 1997 to culminate with this unheard of race ban. As for your comment concerning the shameful MS shunt at Jerez, it just shows your bias, and should I say, hatred.

JV had been warned, and was told if he ignored another yellow he would draw a penalty. He did, he was penalized, and it was not enforced. Given his history of running under yellows in CART, including a complete T-boning of another driver under yellow on an oval, is it any wonder JV was under scrutiny? Take away the 5 seconds of Jerez where Schumacher stooped below himself, and the better driver lost the WDC. JV's only competition going into 1997 was HHF, and he not only underperformed, he was hampered with mechanicals.

You never answered my question from earlier: How many points did JV lose for penalties? And while on the subject, did he not actually break the rules? Did he not have a penalty suspended, allowing him to go on and 'harass' MS?


While you are re-writing history, JV is being forgotten. He is already overshadowed by MH and MS, and soon will be by JPM, KR, and Nick, among others. JV gambled his future away, partly believing in himself and his ability to build a team: Can't fault him for thinking he could..... and partly for believing his buddy and manager who promised him not only a competitive team, but a cash-cow to back it up.

[yukimi]

arcwulf7,

Now we're talking. This goes to the core of the real question to ponder about JV. Why the hell stay with BAR?

JV is one hell of a little persistent bastard. It is well known here in Montreal that once he got his F1 WDC in 1997, his immediate goals changed from short term winning at all cost to achieving something few others have done. It is being speculated here in Montreal that JV got on board with the idea of his old friend Pollock that what they should aim for is achieving victory with their own team, thus the BAR experiment. Do not forget that Michael Schumacher won the WDC with Ferrari only in his fifth year with them, although they have been competitive much earlier than BAR. But one cannot discard the fact that Ferrari has a long standing in F1 compared to BAR.

JV is 30 years old. Compared to Alesi, Irvine, Panis, Frentzen, he easily has another 4, 5 or even 6 good years left to race if he so desires. He has decided to give BAR another year. I wouldn't be surprised if he even gives it 2 years before completely abandonng this dream (until the end of 2003) if BAR makes any kind of meaningful progress next year. That would bring him to 32 years old and plenty of time to switch to a winning team for his last 2 or 3 years to add 1 or more WDC's. Probably by then, Renault or even Toyota will be on the ball. He has stated as much in a recent interview. He said that achieving the WDC in 1997 removed the urge to win at all cost for the immediate future.

He also said that he will go for the Le Man title (if I'm not mistaken ???), the only one he is yet to obtain in motor racing before retiring...

JV once made the comment that he could have added a couple of WDC's to his record if so doing was all he cared for. I wonder if it was McLaren or Ferrari that have made offers to him? Probably McLaren after 1997 or 1998 given that Michael Schumacher was and still is definitely a fixture at Ferrari ...

All in all, JV has already added a F1 WDC to his record. Despite BAR's non competitivity racing wise, he is still racking in the second highest driver salary while with them. Not to mention that he is reported to own 20% of the team as well! He is sure not missing anything on that score...

Pollock and JV are wise little SOB's that are aiming a whole lot higher than most in F1. What more natural than owning a good chunck of your own team, especially if you can drive it to winning form on the race track, racking in the real big dough on your way out...

I wouldn't count Pollock and JV out as yet. There are still too many good years left in them!

[Smooth]

Originally posted by yukimi
Pollock and JV are wise little SOB's that are aiming a whole lot higher than most in F1. What more natural than owning a good chunck of your own team, especially if you can drive it to winning form on the race track, racking in the real big dough on your way out...

I wouldn't count Pollock and JV out as yet. There are still too many good years left in them!

Oh **** that was funny. Thanks. Really.

[yukimi]

Smooth,

You're missing the point here with your obsession against JV. All the fines for yellow flags, the intense public scrutiny by FIA of his every move, the race ban, the enforced trip to Paris in the middle of a race week accomplished what they aimed to accomplish: sap JV's concentration and willingness to fight for the WDC. Irvine's blocking tactics and Heinz Harald Frentzen ineffectiveness in helping his teammate combined with the Williams team numerous blunders in strategy, pit stops, tire choice (San Marino) etc, made for a situation whereby JV was left completely on his own, at least on the track, to fight the F1 machine that did not want him to win.

One poster summarized this very well: Ecclestone/Mosley definitely had a bias for an exciting WDC (if not an outright bias for Ferrari) and since MS/Ferrari could have not made it close without their help, they pounded on JV.

If you want to deny this until you're blue in the face, suit yourself. This is only a Net forum for F1 fans, not WWIII !!!

[mtl'78]

Smooth, you are a strange fellow. On the one hand you can make sharp and insightful comments on almost any topic in F1, and the rest of the time you make snide little remarks that are cheap and totally ignore the point being made.

In this case, you purposely take the most negative spin on JV that is possibly imaginable. If we are to take you as gospel, then what the Hell is Jacques Villeneuve doing in Formula 1? He had his ass handed to him by journeyman Hill, was unimpressive against the recently sacked HHF, barely won a WDC against a car 2 seconds slower than his, and now is just cruising around collecting a ridiculous paycheck. How did this POS ever achieve what he's done already? How does his existence fit into your world???

[Smooth]

Originally posted by mtl'78
In this case, you purposely take the most negative spin on JV that is possibly imaginable. If we are to take you as gospel, then what the Hell is Jacques Villeneuve doing in Formula 1? He had his ass handed to him by journeyman Hill, was unimpressive against the recently sacked HHF, barely won a WDC against a car 2 seconds slower than his, and now is just cruising around collecting a ridiculous paycheck. How did this POS ever achieve what he's done already? How does his existence fit into your world???

How am I making this into the most negative spin on JV? I am only responding to what I feel is a revisionistic view of 1997 from yukimi. Claiming JV was handicapped by the FIA is not what I saw at all. JV was (and is) willing to speak out against the FIA, and in 1997 he refused to joing the GPDA. This wasn't taken lightly by Charlie Whiting, for one. He ignored a yellow, got a warning, did it a second time and was called to task. Nobody was out to hand MS a WDC. If they were, they would have done it. They didn't need to get involved to make the WDC closer: Williams and JV were doing that. McLaren had a very quick, but unreliable car, Benetton had what may have been the second best package in 1997, Ferrari sometimes tying both, but overall didn't find its legs until late in the season. JV made a desperate move in Jerez, and sadly (for me....;) ) MS made an even more desperate move. WDC decided. Did JV deserve the WDC? Well he won it, but I think it was, after this year, his least impressive year driving. Yukimi laying claim to the entire paddock conspiring against JV is myopic, and is utterly laughable to me. I was angry at MS. I was angry at the outcome of the WDC, but I had after 4 or 5 races resolved mysef to the fact that Ferrari were only slightly improved, and that Williams seemed to not have lost a step. McLaren were very much improved in speed, and Benetton was quick. Give the WDC to a Williams driver. JV, it looked like. Move one. But I never saw anything as blatant as the actions of the FIA in 1994, esp. changing the written rule after Spa, in 1997. So yes, maybe I lashed out a bit base-level, and if you share the same view as yukimi, I apologize to you for offending you, as you have never struck me as so shortsighted.

[TheD2JBug]

Originally posted by yukimi
TheD2JBug,

Wow, that's a lot of crap, Man. There should have never been a race penalty for a yellow flag to start with, especially not in a thight WDC race. Mosley/Ecclestone have been harassing JV all of 1997 to culminate with this unheard of race ban. As for your comment concerning the shameful MS shunt at Jerez, it just shows your bias, and should I say, hatred.

There was indeed a "decider race" for the 1997 WDC and JV beat MS fair and square for it. You're trying to rewrite history, my man. As for McLaren so called help of Williams at Jerez in 1997, you're way out to left field. It was JV who moved over at the end of the race to let Hakkinen win his first GP.

Above and beyond one's preferences for one driver or team over another, one should not try to so blatantly distort the facts.

Shame on you!

A: he BROKE THE RULES. not only once , but REPEATED TIMES. JV got warned that if his behaviour continued , he'd get penalized, he did it again , they should have banned him. PERIOD. The same applies to MS , Mika or anybody else . Just because the driver is in the WDC dosen't mean he is immune to the rules. He shoulda known better. It was a good call , it's just they handed him his punisment on a platter by allowing him to race , pull a chop , finish 5th and say " I sucked , I'll withdraw " ..

B: Dude. Go watch Jerez '97 again if you must , you'll see that the move to let DC and Hakkinen by was payback for Mclaren's co-operation. In the middle of the race after the shunt , you see The Mclarens closing up on Villeneuve a second a lap . Then all of a sudden cut to a shot of Patrick Head at the Mclaren pitbox. Lo and Behold , the Mclaren's slow. Then at the end of the race as a reward when the threat was eliminated to JV's WDC , he lets DC , who is forced to conceed to Hakkinen. by. It was quite pathetic really and I have that race on tape so don't tell me it didn't happen. On and btw the TSN pre race show had an F1 insider ( I think it was gerry Donaldson , but I didn't tape it so I'm not sure ) state that Patrick Head and Ron Dennis were seen in the paddock that weekend and were discussing strategy. These are facts . ANd as for hitting the little prat harder I mean MS shoulda hit him hard enough to take him out of the race, not hurt him. It was a slow speed corner so it was minimal risk. and like i say , I don't excuse his actions , I understand them, I'd have done miuch of the same.

oh and I don't hate JV, I just think he's a prat, that's different

[TheD2JBug]

Originally posted by yukimi
Smooth,

You're missing the point here with your obsession against JV. All the fines for yellow flags, the intense public scrutiny by FIA of his every move, the race ban, the enforced trip to Paris in the middle of a race week accomplished what they aimed to accomplish: sap JV's concentration and willingness to fight for the WDC. Irvine's blocking tactics and Heinz Harald Frentzen ineffectiveness in helping his teammate combined with the Williams team numerous blunders in strategy, pit stops, tire choice (San Marino) etc, made for a situation whereby JV was left completely on his own, at least on the track, to fight the F1 machine that did not want him to win.

One poster summarized this very well: Ecclestone/Mosley definitely had a bias for an exciting WDC (if not an outright bias for Ferrari) and since MS/Ferrari could have not made it close without their help, they pounded on JV.

If you want to deny this until you're blue in the face, suit yourself. This is only a Net forum for F1 fans, not WWIII !!!

Skipping the bits on the yellow flags ( covered in previous post ) Lets go through some stuff here.

JV got summoned to Paris for a review of his conduct regarding calling the rules stupid to the press and such. This isn't the first time this has happend. If you recall Senna and Irvine were summned to Paris regarding events at the Japanese GP of 1993 ( That's a whole other thread ). Suffice it to say it's not unheard of it to happen even to a triple WC. As far as JV is concerned it's self inflicted . Nobody put a gun to his head and said " act like a prat towards the stewards and the FIA "

With regards to Irvine's willingness to help Schumacher and HHF's lack of desire to help JV and all that Williams not helping JV garbage, dude you don't blame the FIA .. you blame HHF or Williams ( who btw gave JV the best car on the grid ). What a Team does with it's drivers has NOTHING to do with a grand conspiracy .. You can sell that one to Oliver Stone though ;)

If you wanna look at reasons why Ferrari were in it , you may want to look at some hard work at Maranello and team focus compared to Williams before looking at the FIA .

[yukimi]

OOO Hi,

There's quite a bunch of angry people in here! Geeze, take a pill guys or your dicks'll fall off!!!

Ragoût!

[mtl'78]

Smooth that's fine.

About the yellow flags... A race ban, for his 3rd offence of the season. The 3rd offence had special circumstances: A car was parked off of the racing line 2/3rds of the way down a straight. The marshals had a stationary yellow flag. A train of drivers went by, 7 in all (including MS, Hill, HHF,...), and since JV had 1 extra strike (MS already had 1 before this incident), he was banned. Funny coincidence he had a 9 point lead going into Suzuka and could afford to finish 2nd to MS at both races... just a little bit fishy no?


Also, do you dispute ANYTHING in my 1st post?

the points were:

-Max and Bernie were firmly behind MS/Ferrari. Mostly because Ferrari were behind in pace. I don't believe in a pro-Ferrari bias, but I DO believe in a pro-exciting WDC bias. (91-94-97-99) they all intervened to affect the WC's.

-Irvine's main responsibility on the track was to upset Villeneuve. Most races his strategy was to get in the way of a Williams, sacrificing his race in the process.

-Williams and Patrick Head in particular were not very supportive of JV. Head still imposed his setups on JV until there was some friction at the French GP, after which JV was given more freedom. He also rejuvinated his WDC challenge in the last part of the season, and when the team pulled out the yellow whigs, it was as if to say "You were right". Head gained alot of respect after that and their relationship improved alot. They did not have any problems together in 1998.

- Horrible pit work all season long. In 1997 there were at least 5 instances where JV lost the lead during pitstops, but in Silverstone and Nurburging, Hakkinen's retirements gifted him back the wins...

Not to say that JV's WDC was more difficult than anyone else's, but he DID have an unusual amount to deal with. I haven't even made mention of the then constant references to his father and the "legacy".

As far as Benetton in 1997. They had a great car, and so did Maclaren. Either JV and HHF were so bad as to allow for Maclaren, Ferrari and Benetton to win (not to mention Arrows!) or Williams weren't that dominant to begin with. They just had speed at nearly all the circuits while the other teams struggled from track to track. But the domination bares no resemblance to the kind of domination Maclaren and Ferrari have enjoyed the last 2 and a half seasons.