18 replies to this topic

[mono-posto]

Having never followed American racing (even though I'm American, go figure?), I was wondering if someone could explain the differences to me and the details with all the T. George stuff and the split.

I know nothing about it but thought that I should broaden my horizons. My learning cap is on. Teachers?

[Cindy]

It all started at the Indy 500 race back in 1995 or 1996, I can't remember. Tony George created his own branch of Indy car racing called the Indy Racing League. They were supposed to be a lower cost alternative to CART, which at the time was starting to approach F1 caliber costs. Tony also wanted to have more American drivers with less funding to be able to race in the Indy 500.
For that particular Indy 500, Mr. George saw fit to save 15 or so of the 25 slots for IRL teams. This pissed off CART, who refused to race there, and that is what started the rift.
Ever since then, the Indy 500 is no longer the greatest spectacle in auto racing. Indy 500 no longer has the best teams, cars, and drivers competing.
The IRL has evolved into an almost 2nd rate type of open wheel racing when compared to CART. The IRL is less advanced form of racing. Plus, the IRL only races ovals, even the NASCAR boys do a few road courses every year!

[Fast One]

CART has racing drivers. The IRL has DR. Jack Miller, "The Racing Dentist", who by the way, I saw in some magazine recently, listed as the worst Indy car driver in history. I think they wer far too kind. The IRL is a group of has-beens and never-will-bes, and that about sums it up.

[Keith Steele]

It's a painful process mp. I'll try and cover some big points and we can fill in as we go. Indianapolis Motor Speedway's(IMS) Indy 500 is the crown jewel of US open wheel racing. Anton Hulman, owner of the track dies in 1977. Cart is formed by such owners as Penske, Gurney, Patrick. They are not happy with the shape of the sport and the United States Auto Club's, or USAC handling of their races. In 1978 several USAC stewards are killed in a plane crash. The team owners wish to take it to a different level. Cart is born in 1979 where team owners are put on a board with former race driver Wally Dallenbach named as Chief Steward. For the next 15 years Cart still holds it major race at Indy every year. Tony George, grandson of Anton Hulman is named CEO of the track. Not sure the year as this is coming from memory. Some years Indy counted towards the Cart seasons championship some it didnt.

Until 1994, Indy had been used for two things. The Indy 500, and tire testing. In 1994 Tony George soiled the legendary "brickyard." Named so because it was once paved with bricks. There is still a yard of the original bricks at the start/finish line. He brought Nascar to run there in 1994. To some of the die hard Indy fans, this was an outrage. Had we only known what we were in for. With the revenue generated from the Nascar race, and the biggest race on the Cart schedule, Tony figured he was ready to set out on his own and pay Cart back for what had happened nearly 20 years previous. In 1996 the Indy Racing League or IRL was formed. Tony had a few new rules in order for his new league. To force everyone's hand to join his league, he set the 25/33 rule. The Indy 500 has 33 starters. George was saving the top 25 spots for teams that competed in his oval only racing series. The remaining 8 were for outsiders. Cart outraged by this threw together the US 500 to be run at Michigan opposite Indy in 1996. The first year the IRL used one year old Cart cars. The field was largely composed of teams that were bottom rung Cart teams or only raced at Indy once a year. I believe there were 8 races the first year. Drivers were mostly sprint car drivers with limited if any superspeedway miles. I remember being very frightened. Then Scott Brayton died practicing for Indy. Scott was a veteran Cart driver. Thoughts went from bad to worse wondering if the same would happen to the rookies at the speedway. The begining of the Cart US 500 started the way many expected the Indy 500 to start. An accident befroe the green flag. Now sadly up until The IRL/Cart split television ratings were climbing and the series was doing well. Certainly not Nascar numbers but repsectable. The split changed all that. There was an identity crisis. Tony George won a court case to make Cart stop using the term PPG Indycar world series. Cart decided to call them Champ cars which is what they were refered to as in the seventies. Indy used to take up the whole month of May. Practice, two weekends of qualifying. I can remember drivng down a few times just to see qualifying. With dismal crowds for practice and qualifying George decided to slice up annother long time tradition and include qualifying into one weekend. Cart for the last three years had been racing in St. Louis the Saturday before the Indy 500. because of this the 25/33 rule had been lifted. My father and I have made the pilgramage to St. Louis and Indy, but this year Cart opened up the whole month of May so Cart owners if they chose could ready a car and race at Indy. So far defending four time champion owner Chip Ganasi is the only Cart ownner to go. His drivers are Juan Montoya and Jimmy Vasser. A few other blurbs are Cart uses a turbo charged engine, Irl does not. Cart races on street courses and road course and ovals. Irl still only races on Ovals. IRL has rpm limitation but the number escapes me. And the biggest bone of contention is that Cart teams lease their engines, and can not tweak them. IRL teams buy them outright and can do what they like with them. Cart has been trying to reconcile with George for a few years, and when things were sounding good talks broke off. Not too much later the USGP was announced. So the split is here to stay. This year will probably be my last Indy 500 sadly, as the show just isnt the same anymore. Its racing, but I'd enjoy saving about 45.00 and going to a sprint car race to see these guys drive what they are good at. Hope that helps somewhat.

[f1speed]

Thanks Keith and Cindy for telling it like it is, I watched the Indy 500 for ten years, but I do not watch the IRL 500.

[Mary]

mono-posto,

I'm a CARTisan (CART supporter) vs an IRLista (IRL supporter) but I have to say that there is another side (one I profoundly disagree with, but one that exists, nevertheless).

Try something like National Speed Sport News for the IRL's point of view. (You could also go the the SpeedNet website, but that is strong medicine, IMO.)

Let me say that there are two very different points of view about what American racing should be, who should run it, what it should cost and who should have access. A lot of it goes back to the old road racers vs oval racers debate which has gone on in the USA for decades.

I'm leaving it alone at this point.

Mary

[mono-posto]

I just came back from the CART and IRL official sites and return a little more knowledgable for the experience.

Thanks to those who responded, I now hate Tony George too!

[EdwRom]

The irony of it all is that there are really not that many Saturday night sprint car drivers in the IRL. Also, the last two Indy500 winners are a European with road-racing-only experience prior to joining the series (and now a CART driver), i.e. Kenny Bräck; and, an American with CART (and F1?) experience prior to joining, Eddie Cheever. So much for the (twisted) vision of Tony George!



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Ed
Going for my 1st GP (USGP) in 2000!, I think??!! (Hey Tony George, where are my tickets?)

[f1speed]

Another irony is that Sprint car racing(World of Outlaws) is much more fun to watch than IRL.

[Turn13]

OK, the preceding posts have invoked my standard Tony George defense, quite familiar to seventhgearheads.

It is easy to pick apart the Indy Racing series based on head to head comparisons of technology and driver talent. It's also a favored and opportunistic failing to skewer the richer and more famous, especially on a semi-annonymous forum. However, a more rational, fact-based examination will belie the popular notions, and show Tony George, and the Indy Racing formula, to have the potential to be good for open wheel racing, on the whole.

The main purpose of the Indy Racing series is not to especially favor US drivers, nor to punish or compete with CART. It is rather to provide a racing series compatible with and friendly to a cherished cultural icon, the Indianapolis Motor Speedway. The cost and technological limitations of the formula provide a framework for encouraging new teams and drivers to compete. To the extent it succeeds or fails is up to the drivers and teams themselves. The philosophy is intact, and in fact it has been proven that the costs and technology are perfectly capable of providing competitive racing and a level that "maxes out" what's possible on oval-type tracks. The very notion of ovals is admittedly offensive to some, but then that's what the IMS is, isn't it, and that is what was entrusted to Tony to preserve and promote.

And indeed, Tony George has been faithful in the "care and feeding" of the IMS. The venue is outstanding for what it is, and despite its' geographic setting. The grounds and facilities are maintained at a phenomenal level, even by comparison with past generations. No cost is spared in continually improving the fan experience. This behavior refelects a character not consistent with the "careless, greedy, egotistic" image presented by some.

Regarding the new events, the way they have been prepared for and implemented have been in keeping with tradition and the historical precedent of the May classic. Some people choose to apply the cynic's view, but it's really not necessary- the fact is it's a private institution with a vital cultural role. Economically, the Speedway must conform to the capitalistic imperative to grow or die, and Tony has seen to that, while always guarding the spirit and essence of the place.

Most of the venomous charges come from the ranks of CART and its' fans, among whom I place myself. However regrettable, it stands to reason that Tony could not let the institution become totally dependent on an adversarial ally such as that one, which threatened boycotts and sought to "export" some of the IMS' own success to increase its' own value. In some ways, both CART and the IMS were destined to have conflicts due to the inordinate popularity of the one race in comparison with the series. This is not something that Tony George could have controlled, simply because it's a cultural phenomenon.

Tony George's desire to host a Formula One race is documented back to the day he assumed his current responsibilities at IMS, certainly long before the Brickyard 400 or the IRL formation. I always thought it was pure fantasy, but he is making it happen, and I believe it is borne of a true love for racing.

I would hope that one day CART will have an event of their own at IMS- perhaps running either or both circuits in the opposite direction. In time, in time....

The important thing about the technology in the IRL how far it has progressed in such short time. If we consider that today's F1 car is 99% of what a racing car should be, then a CART car would be 95%, I'm assuming. Given that relationship, and understanding that by design the series is oval-centric, then the IRL car would be 90%. Compared to a NASCAR, which would be 70-75%. Based on the reports from CART drivers who have also driven IRL, the current development cycle may be closer to 93%. CanAm would have rated 110%, for funzies. The Indy cars have caused me serious pause in regard to safety, but I know that the league and the constructors (Reynard/R&S, Dallara, and G-Force) are concerned and professional, and committed to improve.

The current Indy Racing Series is not all that is hoped for- that too will take time. But the framework is in place that will enable USA open wheel stars of the future- the Jeff Gordons and Tony Stewarts- to have a viable place to begin careers that can lead to CART and ultimately, F1. I think that's the whole idea. Such an outcome would be great for the USA, and provide an important source of long-term growth for F1.

I'm sure I won't change anyone's opinion, but I feel better just setting the record straight. Much of what passes through these forums is name-calling, hearsay, and inuendo, if not blatant lies. It's easy and popular to blast Bernie E, Frank W, et al, but there is a contribution there that we all benefit from, objectively. This is especially true for Tony George, who puts his actions and philosophy ahead of a lot of media hype.

Now, if they (IMS) would only outsource their ticket sales to a more efficient group!

[Megatron]

Hmmm....this could take a while.

CART was formed in the late 1970's when many of the USAC (the previous Indy seris, basically controlled by IMS), teams felt that USAC were not doing enough to promote races outside of Indy.

With much of the money put up by Pat Patrick and Roger Penske.

CART had its trying days but it eventually turned into a great racing seris. However, the Indy 500 was STILL a USAC event. CART teams protisipated and the race counted towards the championship, but it was still a USAC (not CART) event.

Through the late 80's and early 90's, the sides of USAC/Indy/Tony George and CART had a relationship that could only be counted as cautious at best.

In 1991, Tony George proposed an offer to buy CART. It was a ridously low offer, at around $1 Million. It was turned down, as was the plan for an engine formula of 3.5 litre normally aspirated engines. A flat bottom chassis was also proposed.

Everything was rejected, and CART went on its merry way.

However, George had his own intentions. Many think that having a NASCAR race at Indy was to get funding for his new adventure.

Despite how much many people (including me) have bashed George, he did have one or two good points. The costs of CART were begining to rival F1, and it was becoming harder and harder for little teams to run. I feel this is basically the ONLY argument that George has ever had that had any merit.

He also hated engine leases. Engine leases became mandatory after Patrick reportedly sent a Chevy/Ilmor over to Italy to Alfa Romeo to explore in the late 1980's. (as a side note, it did not help the engine).

Engine leases are a neat way for manufacturers to protect their technology and compete fairly.

George was devasted when Al Unser Sr could not get his hands on a Chevy/Ilmor (Ilmor was booked to the rafters, BTW), and the final straw came when Roger Penske built his infamous stock Mercedes/Ilmor in 1994 that supposedly had over 1100 BHP, an engine that destroyed everyone at Indy and no one not wearing a Pesnke sticker could get it.

George also argued that track owners felt they were getting josted by many of the team owners and wanted somewhere else to go (which is odd considering after 5 years the IRL has a total of nine races).

Fast forward to 1996. Tony George starts the IRL. The first season consisted of five races. The cars were powerd by Mernards/Buick and Ford Cosworth engines with old CART chassis (sometimes as much as 5 years old).

Ford has latered regreated that they had ANYTHING to do with the IRL. Due to a binding contract, one Mercedes/Ilmor also competed in the 1996 Indy 500 with Galles Racing.

After getting rid of the "evil CART formula", the IRL had thier own formula in 1997 of 4.0 liter NA engines with what I consider very low tech chassis. They had a ton of drivers injured in their first year with chassis that should have been on the design table instead of on the track.

The only two manufacturers who wanted anything to do with the low tech formula was GM (suprise) and Nissan. The engines are only limted to (varying on the current rules) 10,000 to 10,700 RPM's.

Another blow to thier credibility amoung many fans is thier stance against road courses.

In a sense, Tony George created the IRL to elimante foriegn ride buyers, cut costs, and give US short track drivers a chance.

Fast forward to present. Sponsorship is so hard to come by in the IRL, they are defeating thier own cause. AJ Foyt has slammed foriegn ride buyers for years and has played the sprint car drivers cards, but had to replace sprint US driver Billy Boat recently with Chillien ride buyer Elieso Salizar (talk about controdicting yourself).

Shigaki Hattori lost his CART lisense last year because he was so off the pace and spun out so much, but guess what? Instead of hiring another "young gun", noted owner Fred Treadway is taking on this walking chicane because of his EPSON sponsorship money.

The IRL also controdicts itself in its engine leases theory. The IRL mandates that you have to sell your engine to anyone. However, there are builders in the IRL, and they have to sell thier product to ANYONE. John Mernards team has been the dominate team since the formula started, but you can't go up and buy one of his engines.

They also droped capicty to 3.5 liters, although in thier defence, the chassis appear to be much better than their block 1997 counterparts.

CART has geuniely tried to get a peace, offering to run normally aspirated engines over what many think is an excellent formula in the turbo. Supposedly, once or twice, the talks have gotten serious, once even supposedly having a verbal agreement, but each time, TG has called it off.

So lets review what Tony George has accomplished:

-Sent many big name sponsors like Valvoline, Bud, Glidden, etc, home.

-Ilienated engine manufacturers.

-Made loads of fans mad.

-Cost track owners loads of cash.

-Made it just like the USAC days, when the only race anyone cared about was the Indainapolis 500, and the only names people reconize is Unser and Foyt. (though Ganassis is going back to, drumroll, Indy).

-Sent Indy car ratings and attendence into a slump.

All because he did not want those evil foriegn ride buyers to take over the sport.

BUT, he has defeated his own cause. In both CART and the IRL, US drivers are losing thier seats to pay drivers because viewing and exposure are horrible, and the only ones with any cash for both seris are drivers from Chada Whada (joke). Billy Boat, Richie Hearn, Memo Gidly, John Paul Jr, etc, are among the US drivers who can't get a ride.

ALSO, I took a long time to type this and did it in a hurry. I am sure there are some spelling errors, please, just this once, excuse me.





[This message has been edited by Megatron (edited 03-12-2000).]

[Keith Steele]

Megatron, without this thread becoming a microcosm of 7G, I did just want to mention... George, may have lowered the initial cost to go racing. But then Foyt goes and buys two of each engine, and two of each chassis. Tested them both to see which one was better. The cost of such an expenditure had to rival a Cart team's budget. Hardly a level playing field, when Foyt has a Cart budget and some of these guys crack up a tub and they're done for the year.

Turn 13, If Cart got too expensive, Toyota Atlantic and Indy Lights were available formulas to run. To preserve Indy would have meant to preserve the Indy 500's heritage. To that he wasnt successful. George tried to do what France had, owned the major event and ran the series. He could'nt pull it off. He did hurt Cart though, but you don't see sponsors banging down the door to sponsor teams in the IRL either. Lots of blank sidepods in bothe series. This is most likely the last time George will get our $300.00 for the Indy 500. Which to me is tragic as it has been a family tradition that I had hoped to pass on to my son. Instead, Milwaukee will takes its place. He'll be getting 150.00 back for the USGP to check it out, but Canada is calling my name for next year. As George has made it clear there is no reunification coming. Sad news, but we were holding on to the tickets only because we hoped they would get back together. I can't imagine we will be the only ones.

Regurdless of George's true intention, which is of course speculative, he has not made the 500 stronger. Ratings are way down. He has upset many fans. Ask a few of the F1 fans on this board who are dealing with IMS how well the customer service has been reguarding tickets for the USGP. An orginization that has distributed millions of tickets during its existance.

[Turn13]

Yeah, I don't want this to be 7G all over either, but I of course didn't start it, just responded.

Megatron, your post was nearly fair, I appreciate it. Generally, if you valued CART above all, you will not be a fan of TG, obviously. However, the framework he has put in place specifically addresses problems virtually all CART fans have today, and that Andrew Craig has not. The low cost is not intended to exclude anybody, and it doesn't. It does allow opportunity for all- that would include ride-buyers, although it certainly takes less $ to unseat them with talent.

The series provides more than enough technology to support its' format, as the cars are still performing at speeds within the qualifying range of CART at similar venues. The difference is in that last 1 - 5%, which accounts for 80 - 90% of the cost.

The racing action is exciting, although still dependent on the quality of its least able teams- in time that will change. There will always be teams who outspend others, but their impact is less so. There is no maximum, only a minimum. The framework does have the effect of leveling the field, as the poles, wins and points have been much more widely spread.

Kieth, I don't think it's valid to offer Indy Lights as an alternative for the Indy 500. What was sought was a series faithful and purpose-built to that style of track, and that is what was established. I too have often wondered if Tony could not have met his objectives by investing at the feeder level to help cultivate the talent and framework he sought.

I understand your feelings, even if I don't share them. It took me some time and investigation as well. I am glad for at least one thing- that CART has the ability and now the impetus to pursue its' own identity, apart from Indy. I would hope that the future holds CART's own date at IMS, alongside the other events.

I see the sponsorship and popularity turning, ever slowly, from the huge impact NASCAR has had in the States. Casual fans and NASCAR fans are much more likely to find appeal in the Indy formula- that will, in time, convert them to CART fans and ultimately, F1 fans. This is already happening- albeit in "geologic time", it sometimes seems.

At any rate, the things TG has tried have been valid, and even well executed, to the extent that he can control. It's only when we view things from the CART perspective that you get come up with the "evil" connotation.

And yeah- they've distributed millions of tickets, but this is only the second time they've had a whole new event to set up. No excuse, just a reason.

And that's the last I'll address it here, I promise!

[Megatron]

Please don't think I was defending TG. I said that was the ONLY thing I could find in his whole seris that he even remotely had and merit.

Of course, as you say, the IRL is not really that much cheaper than CART, if any.

Where the IRL has such a little schedule, it makes it look a lot better.

Depending on who you ask, the big teams (yes there is a few left) will spend around 4 1/2-5 1/2 million a year for 9 races, all in the US.

For CART, Ganassi's budget for two cars (before Toyota money), is around 20 million dollars for 20 races, three of which is overseas. Not to mention that (supposedly) road courses can be more expensive (unless you crash), and the fact that CART drivers make more from thier retainer while IRL drivers make just about all thier money from purses (non budget releated).

The truth lies therein.

[This message has been edited by Megatron (edited 03-12-2000).]

[Turbo]

Here's my biased short take on the issue:
CART = top sirloin
IRL = spam

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Bring back slicks and turbo!

[This message has been edited by Turbo (edited 03-13-2000).]

[Turn13]

Thus F1 = Filet Mignon

Indy Racing would be closer to ground chuck, at least! Ask the guys who've driven both...

A little A1 sauce, and ...

[MichiganF1]

TG's real failure was that by inducing the split (and the resultant decreasing popularity of open-wheel racing overall), he has caused sponsors to walk away. When US sponsors depart, then so do US drivers. Take Richie Hearn. I have no idea if he is better or worse than Norberto Fontana, but Hearn is out at Della Penna strictly because he lost the Budweiser sponsorship.

Actually, I fault TG AND Andrew Craig, because CART's efforts to promote US talent have been nonexistent.

Too bad, too - with NASCAR popularity wavering, a unified series would resurrect open wheel racing.

[Turn13]

Blame him as you wish, MichiganF1, but bear in mind that what you are now complaining about was TG's concern several years ago. The trends were in place. At least he took steps, and spent his own cash, to deal with it. And in fact, it works, albeit "two steps forward, and one step back." Nobody guarantees success; the real sin is not to try.

Well that was an easy promise to break!

[This message has been edited by Turn13 (edited 03-13-2000).]

[Keith Steele]

Yes folks it has happened.

Ladies and Gentleman and the rest of you, I present the 7G microcosm thread.