14 replies to this topic

[Erd]

Well this is what I hear from a friend:

BMW 850bhp
Ferrari 840bhp
Cosworth 815bhp
Mercedes 805bhp
Honda 800bhp
Renault 780bhp

I think thats the correct bhp for each teams this season...

[Frank&Patrick]

BMW 880 HP
Ilmor 850 HP
Cosw 830 HP
Honda 820 HP
Ferarri 815 HP

Thats what a friend told me

[AdamLarnachJr]

Well thats all fine and dandy, but where in the RPM range are the teams making that horsepower? And more importantly, who has the flattest torque curve with the most torque.

[PDA]

Flattest torque curve is likely to mean SFA when you have 50 or 60 hp more.

[AdamLarnachJr]

SFA? Great, but where are you making that much horsepower? @ 18,000rpm a 50hp difference is only 15ft. lbs.

If you arent making squat for torque until the upper rpm range, you are in big trouble if somebody elses engine is making gobs of torque throughout the rpm range, and only 15 less than you at peak rpm.

[PDA]

I take your point, but I think you are overestimating it. with complex EMS systems, variable length inlets, probably variable valve timing, it is probable that all of the engines have similar shaped power curves, and none of them act as an on/off switch. A seven speed gearbox gives the driver every possibility of keeping the engine well within its power band for most of the time. Having said that, I do recall Rosberg winning the US GP on a street course at Dallas with an early turbo Honda which was very much an on/off switch, indicating that a goiod driver can overcome such difficulties if the lack of low speed torque is offset by a significantly higher top end power advantage.

I was more intrigued at Hockenheim, where engines are supposed to be such an important factor, that two cars with identical power units, Sauber and Prost, were so far apart in lap times, indicating to me that power output is but one factor.

[Croaky]

I'd be interested if somebody was paying attention to how much rear wing everyone was running at Hockenheim. I noticed that BMW Williams were running lots of rear wing, and Arrows had an almost flat wing. I know it's not the be all and end all, but it might contribute to this discussion on relative amounts of engine power.

[Halfwitt]

From this data, I can definitely say that

1. Frank&Patrick's friend was at BMW AFTER Erd's friend
2. Frank&Patrick's friend was at ILMOR AFTER Erd's friend
3. Frank&Patrick's friend was at HONDA AFTER Erd's friend
4. Frank&Patrick's friend was at COSWORTH AFTER Erd's friend
5. Frank&Patrick's friend was at FERRARI BEFORE Erd's friend

Furthermore, Erd's friend knows someone at Renault and Frank&Patrick's friend doesn't (or hasn't got there yet).

[Erd]

err.... Ilmore are after Cosworth, Ferrari are more powerfull, there second to BMW says Autosport now.

[AdamLarnachJr]

Originally posted by PDA
I take your point, but I think you are overestimating it. with complex EMS systems, variable length inlets, probably variable valve timing, it is probable that all of the engines have similar shaped power curves, and none of them act as an on/off switch. A seven speed gearbox gives the driver every possibility of keeping the engine well within its power band for most of the time. Having said that, I do recall Rosberg winning the US GP on a street course at Dallas with an early turbo Honda which was very much an on/off switch, indicating that a goiod driver can overcome such difficulties if the lack of low speed torque is offset by a significantly higher top end power advantage.

I was more intrigued at Hockenheim, where engines are supposed to be such an important factor, that two cars with identical power units, Sauber and Prost, were so far apart in lap times, indicating to me that power output is but one factor.

Oh completley true, theres no debate on my part about that, I was simply trying to make a point that horsepower has nothing to do with engine power, other than more of it = more rpm & more torque, but other than that, its not very useful for determining vehicle performance.

Take NASCAR for example, some teams are using the short stroke bi hp, low torque motors, others are using a bit longer stroke, making less hp and more torque, yet they both are still winning races.

[30ft penguin]

Originally posted by Erd
Well this is what I hear from a friend:

BMW 850bhp
Ferrari 840bhp
Cosworth 815bhp
Mercedes 805bhp
Honda 800bhp
Renault 780bhp

I think thats the correct bhp for each teams this season...

The order of (and gap between) the teams is more or less what I gathered by averaging the various reports about engine hp I found in magazines and on various web sites. I guess we will never know exact numbers, but just look at the Hockenheim GP: Ralf, Juan, MS and David were all on one-stoppers. Ralf and Juan pulled away, MS followed with an increasing gap, David was far behind MS. I cannot imagine David to stay that far behind MS when the order was

BMW 880 HP
Ilmor 850 HP
Cosw 830 HP
Honda 820 HP
Ferarri 815 HP

as suggested in another post here.

[Erd]

I can because Ilmor comes after Cosworth and Ferrari after BMW !

[Top Fuel F1]

Originally posted by AdamLarnachJr
Oh completley true, theres no debate on my part about that, I was simply trying to make a point that horsepower has nothing to do with engine power, other than more of it = more rpm & more torque, but other than that, its not very useful for determining vehicle performance.

Take NASCAR for example, some teams are using the short stroke bi hp, low torque motors, others are using a bit longer stroke, making less hp and more torque, yet they both are still winning races.

For those wishing to read a more detail explaination of some of these kinds of things, pls. see:

http://www.seansa4pa...e/torquehp.html

Rgds;

[AdamLarnachJr]

Great read:) What a coincedence, I just wrote an article a few days ago that picks up where that left off, and now I just need some people to proof read it:)

http://www.hespera.u...01_320vs532.htm

So if anybody feels up to it, its a real short read, could you fire off any corrections to me at larnach@pacbell.net?

Thanks a lot.

[Nuvolari]

Hmmmm... not so sure about these figures. I recently had the priveledge of spending a few days with Paul Rosche, who till last year was in charge of BMW F1 engine program and he is adamant about the following facts.

- The BMW is making 850bhp at ~17,200rpm
- Qualifying - the engine will run to 18,000rpm
- Race - the engine runs to 17,600rpm
- BMW F1 program began in 1993
- Recent improvements have been through gas dynamic developments. They have a very strong simulation department working with WAVE.

Before people start saying that he is now retired and is not abreast with current developments... PR has been in the sport for ever. He knows what he is talking about, and is very well connected, and although retired, is still very much involved in BMW motorsports. He is certainly better informed than the countless journalists speculating on these Hp figures...

Ciao...