50 replies to this topic

[Graham Clayton]

Does anyone have much information on the attempt by Swiss
supercar manufacturer Peter Monteverdi to construct a F1 car in 1961?

All I know is that the car had a flat-four Porsche engine.
It lasted 2 laps at the non-Championship Solitude GP,
and then crashed at Hockenheim. The remains of the
car were buried under the floor of the Monteverdi
museum in Switzerland

As well as technical details, a picture would be appreciated.

[clickhappy]

The MBM (Monteverdi-Bale-Mantzel) was also sold in the U.S. as a 'Machan.'

The car had a multi-tubular chassis and a flat four Porsche engine. The car was destroyed and buried, as you mention.

[Rainer Nyberg]

I can post a pic later today when I get home from work if there isn´t someone who beats me to it.
The car was a modified Formula Junior.

[Rainer Nyberg]

Here is the MBM-Porsche seen at Solitude with constructor Peter Monteverdi behind the wheel.

[Rainer Nyberg]

MBM stood originally for Monteverdi-Basle-Motoren but was changed to Monteverdi-Basle-Mantzel for the Formula Junior venture. Mantze was a wellknown 2-stroke specialist tuner. He was preparing the DKW 3-cylinder for the FJ. The F1 was a multi-tubular spaceframe with a flat-four Porsche RSK engine.
Two were built, one written off at Solitude the other was unraced.

[Roger Clark]

Rainer,

I'm a little concerned about both your last two posts. in the second one you say that the MBM was destroyed at solitude. I can find no mention of that. The records I have say that it retired with engine trouble.

Then the picture. Monteverdi had number 20 at solitude, not 12. Number 12 was worn by Barth in a works Porsche, the experimental 787, but it's clearly not that.

I believe that the MBM as written off in a formula Libre race at hockenheim the week after Solitude. I've never seen a picture of the MBM at Hockenheim, but the engine cover in your picture looks different from the pictures I have seen of the car at Solitude. At Solitude it looks lower and less Porsche-like.

[Rainer Nyberg]

I am not an expert on the cars from this era and I was not around when they raced so I am sure that your claims are right, Roger.

The image in question comes from a german magazine and the caption stated that it was from Solitude. But I have not cross-checked the racenumbers so there seem to be some confusion. The captions are clearly not always reliable. Could it be that the picture shows the MBM as a Formula Junior and not as a Formula 1?

I mean there could be a DKW mill under the cover, so then it could be a pic even from 1960.

I have only this photo available of the MBM so I can not cross-check.

About the write-off I will look again in my source and return with an answer when I get home from work later today.

[Vitesse2]

There's a picture of an MBM Junior in Hodges A-Z of Formula Racing Cars. It seems to have been taken at a motor show of some sort, as there's a board leant up against a front wheel. The engine cover on this car is much higher and curved to fit the profile of the roll-bar and both front and rear suspension are substantially different to the Solitude shots I've seen (in Lawrence GP Cars 1945-65). This may be the first Junior, which according to Mike Lawrence was "very poor and quickly replaced", in which case it might be a false lead (I originally typed "red herring" but I'm not sure that's an easily understood term for some of you!!).

A couple of other discrepancies: Hodges A-Z of Formula Cars (1990) says two cars were built and that the other was unraced and was exhibited in Monteverdi's "museum". In his A-Z of Grand Prix Cars (2001) he says only "in his showroom for a while" - I wonder what it's fate was??

Also, the drivers in the two race shots I've seen are clearly wearing different helmets - at Solitude, it has a lighter band on the helmet above the peak and has one of the one-piece clear visors as favoured by Hawthorn, whereas in Rainer's picture there is no band and the driver is wearing goggles.

Before racing the MBM F1, Monteverdi apparently ran it in several Swiss hillclimbs - could Rainer's picture be from one of these?

A few other details for Graham:
Although MBM originally stood for Monteverdi-Basle-Mantzel, by 1961 it had been modified to Monteverdi Binningen Motoren, Binningen being the suburb of Basle where they were made and for a short time the final M had stood for Gerhard Mitter (another hillclimb connection?).

The F1 MBM was a strengthened and lengthened version of the FJ, fitted with a Porsche RSK engine, optimistically claimed at 150bhp. Porsche had refused to sell Monteverdi an engine, so he bought a complete car! The chassis was a conventional spaceframe with coil spring fs, lower wishbone and upper link and coils and double wishbone at the rear.

The car was entered for the 1961 German GP but did not appear, so presumably the race in which it was written off at Hockenheim had taken place the previous weekend, as the Solitude GP was on July 23 and the German GP August 6.

[Roger Clark]

This is the MBM and Monteverdi at Solitude. you can see that the bodywork behind the engine is quite different from that in Rainer's picture. You can also see Monteverdi's helmet that Vitesse refers to.

[Rainer Nyberg]

There is nothing doubting that Porsche engine in the back of that MBM....!

I just looked in the A-Z of Grand Prix cars and yes it says that one of the cars was written off at Hockenheim. So I think that can be cleared out.

About 'my' picture it is now an open questionmark...

It has become one of those identity games...

I would be happy to see it solved...

I will be more cautious with the pictures in future and as many before have stated here, captions are not always what they should be...'sigh'

[Vitesse2]

The two engine covers are very different: in Rainer's picture, it looks like a streamlined and faired-off one-piece, but thanks to Roger's picture I can now see that the engine cover at Solitude was a two-piece construction, the higher part of which was removed at the time the picture was taken.

So, was the car written off at Hockenheim the second, allegedly unraced one? This would mean that the car buried under the garage is actually the one in Rainer's picture and the one which survived was actually the Solitude car ...

[Marcor]

Who had the results of this mysterious Formula libre at Hockenheim?

Having the monthly French magazine L'Automobile (September 1961) who included the reports of the Solitude and German GP, it had absolutely no mention of that race. It seems to be a very obscure race !

So a German source would be cool !

[Marcor]

Oh I forget, the French mag included a picture of the MBM at La Solitude and it's definitely not the same car as in the Rayner's picture.

[Felix Muelas]

Quote

Originally posted by Rainer Nyberg
Could it be that the picture shows the MBM as a Formula Junior and not as a Formula 1? I mean there could be a DKW mill under the cover, so then it could be a pic even from 1960.

Quote

Originally posted by Vitesse2
There's a picture of an MBM Junior in Hodges ...This may be the first Junior, which according to Mike Lawrence was "very poor and quickly replaced"...

Before racing the MBM F1, Monteverdi apparently ran it in several Swiss hillclimbs - could Rainer's picture be from one of these?

Well, definitely one of those pictures...

I have been spending some time over the available results of the MBM cars from 1960 to 1962 and I have come to the following conclusions :

a) It doesn’t look like a Swiss hillclimb to me
b) As far as driver, I am more tempted to go for Peter Monteverdi than to any of the other (known) drivers of MBMs (Johnston, Rikkila, Caster Denton, John Peterson, Curt Gonstead , Timo Makinen , Roger Zehrin etc ).
c) The car in the picture is probably the MBM-DKW Junior as ran by Monteverdi in his name and under "Ecurie Hoba" branding during 1960 and 1961.
d) There is no race in which that combination was to wear number 12
e) But there is a race in which starting numbers are unknown (and no, it´s not Solitude 1960!) : Grand Prix de Paris, 14th May 1960, at Montlhery (race won by Manuel Mocelek in a Stanguellini)

Arriving at this point, we should stop and ask ourselves: does that track look like any Montlhery point? and also : will some of our members, with access to French sources, be able to confirm/deny that Monteverdi´s starting number was 12 in that race?

By the way, at around June 1961, Monteverdi decided to switch the DKW engine on the Junior for a FIAT one and, almost immediately after that, for a Ford one. With the FIAT engine he raced at the GP della Loteria, Monza. 29th June. By July 23rd, whilst he was racing the MBM F1 at Solitude, his usual Junior car was driven at the same track by Heini Walter, under Ecurie Roba, but with a Ford engine. Monteverdi himself drove that same car in October, 8th in the Preis der Tiroler, at Innsbruck.

With a dozen or so F Junior races when the MBM was taking part in Europe during those years where numbers are known, would we have stumped into the only one where numbers are unknown?

Maybe.

Felix

[Roger Clark]

The car in Rainer's picture looks too modern for a 1960 Junior to me. This is the MBM on display at the Geneva Show in March 1960.

[Felix Muelas]

Quote

Originally posted by Roger Clark
The car in Rainer's picture looks too modern for a 1960 Junior to me

Unfortunately Roger, I have to agree with you.

I had seen the picture of the Junior (probably in Hodges) and I probably decided to ignore the obvious fact that the two cars didn´t have exactly the same shape, so to speak...

So yes, it does not make a lot of sense that as soon as May 1960 a second version, on 1961 lines and decoration, would be around.

Back to start point. Any reasonable explanation for the car number 12 location, now probably in 1961?

Felix

[tombe]

While in danger of confusing the matter even more, I'll post this picture which I've got reason to believe shows the MBM-Ford Formula Junior car at Solitude '61.



Tom.

[Vitesse2]

Hmm! Hodges says that the MBM Junior had Porsche front suspension. The suspension on the car in Tom's picture is different to the car in Roger's picture, which matches the car in Hodges' book.

Of the F1 car, Hodges says its suspension was "wide-base wishbone", Lawrence says "coil springs, lower wishbone and upper link". I think that description fits the car in Tom's picture!

And now that 8W is over for Summer, here's a link to a picture of the MBM F1 at Solitude:

http://8w.forix.com/6010-s01.jpg

What makes you think it's a Junior at Solitude Tom?

[Barry Lake]

I have been following this thread with great interest. I love a mystery like this - especially if there is a final solution.

It appears there were quite a few more, different MBM cars than Lawrence's book would suggest. Also, perhaps, that some of the cars were drastically modified during their careers.

Please keep the photographs coming (rather than links). These put it all into perspective and offer the best clues.

Sorry I don't have time to get involved - although I doubt any of my reference material would cover this anyway.

[Milan Fistonic]

I don't know if this adds anything to the puzzle or just confuses the issue but there is a photo of a Formula Junior racing at Road America in 1960 that is called a Mitter-MBM.

The caption is: Curt Gonstead, winner of the 100-mile Formula Junior race, powers into a corner in Mitter-MBM car. Longest race yet for Jrs proved exciting.

The car appears to have VW-type front suspension and the Chapman strut arrangement at the rear.

[Barry Lake]

Doesn't the number 12 car in Rainer's photo look like a tidied-up version of the number 20 F1 car?

Could it have a different engine, or a flat fan in place of the vertical fan, to get the rear bodywork lower?

Or simply neater-looking rear bodywork?

[tombe]

Vitesse, the caption read it was a MBM. And, although it did NOT state it was Solitude, there were four other pics of FJs in the same magazine where it was stated that they were taken at that track. The surroundings looks similiar, so I think it's very likely this pic's from there too.

BTW, check out this web-site http://www.monteverd...e.de/page5.html .

The red FJ looks very much like the one in my picture, even the front suspension seems to be the same non-VW. The colour scheme is different though.
And the F1 has even got starting no.12......

Tom

[BRG]

As a side issue, how does this Monteverdi effort relate to the recent Monteverdi (ex-Onyx) fiasco? If at all?

[tombe]

BRG, if you click the arrows at the site in the link above, I think you can get the whole story.

BTW, I've just found another web-site which confirms that Heini Walter had starting no. 47 at Solitude '61.

Tom

[BRG]

Tombe

Thanks. I thought it was the same Monteverdi, but what a sad ending the final F1 debacle was....

[Vitesse2]

Check this page on the site mentioned by Tombe:

http://www.monteverd...s/f1/index.html

It looks like the No12 car is still in the Monteverdi Museum. Plus, there's a spaceframe chassis exhibited alongside it - wonder what the story is there?

Damn!! This just gets more complicated, not easier!!!

[Rainer Nyberg]

Vitesse2, there seems to be an another interesting pic there as well on that page...!
It seems that there is a solution to an earlier thread posted by me...!
The red-and-white '91 Formula One was from Monteverdi it seems.

It was seen tested by J.J. Lehto on image from that thread.



Compare with the one on the Monteverdi site :

[Felix Muelas]

Rainer,

I´m delighted that you were finally able to find the answer to your (long-standing) Lehto mistery !

Vitesse,

I am lost.
I agree that the more info we handle, the more far away we seem from the answer to the original question, the one generated by Rainer´s car number 12.
To summarize, it looks like :
a) We are seeing a picture from 1961
b) It is slightly different from the FJ car that was seen at Solitude
c) It is different from the F1 car seen at Solitude and
d) There is no race in that year where number 12 was used either for FJ either for F1.

Back to the Swiss hillclimb ? I still think that the surrounding does not exactly look like that, but once the impossible has been discarded...;)

Felix

[Felix Muelas]

Image recap (because scrolling is not my favourite sport)
(image provider)

The original mistery picture as posted by (Rainer)


The known MBM F1 at Solitude

and (Roger Clark)


The MBM FJunior car :
At the Geneva exhibition (Roger Clark)

and at the Solitude weekend as driven by Heini Walter (tombe)


Next?

Felix

[Felix Muelas]

One last try tonight :

Accepting that the last two letters of the advert in the pic might be "OL", can someone else read -or imagine- "Castrol" (or at least "STROL") on the wall of the picture?
Or is it "SASOL"? (Now that would really complicate matters, wouldn´t it?)


Felix

[Rainer Nyberg]

Okay we can add these to the image gallery...

From the Monteverdi Club site :
A 1961 MBM F1 car :


A 1960 MBM FJunior :

[Vitesse2]

I may be wrong, but if you look here, the left-hand image on the second picture down looks VERY familiar!!:

http://www.monteverd.../mbm/index.html

[Vitesse2]

The key to identification seems to come back to the engine covers. If we ignore the 1960 cars, which are obviously all FJ, there are two distinctive F1 cars, each with slightly different engine covers and the FJ car, on which the engine cover is lower and runs "as a piece" with the front bodywork.

The Heini Walter car and Red 6 are to all intents and purposes identical, so both are definitely FJ (but we knew that!).

Of the other two: if the published info is correct, then the Solitude car with the two-piece engine cover MUST have been the one destroyed at Hockenheim and buried. Therefore, unless it's a testing picture, the allegedly unraced second car DID race or hillclimb somewhere.

Felix: I agree it looks like "Castrol", but perhaps that's auto-suggestion .... the first three letters on the other hoarding look like TEC or maybe TEL: any thoughts on that? And I'm not even going to consider SASOL - you'll be suggesting YPF next!!

Rainer: funny how these things turn up - I'd forgotten that thread till it popped up on my screen!

[Pascal]

Quote

Originally posted by Rainer Nyberg
The red-and-white '91 Formula One was from Monteverdi it seems.

If I remember well, the cars were former Onyx chassis...

[Rainer Nyberg]

Yep former Onyx cars they were, and when I am thinking hard, I have never heard about any '91 Monteverdis!
Monteverdi took over Onyx from Mike Earle for the 1990 season.
Yet the red-and-white cars on display are marked "MONTEVERDI Formel 1 1991" !
So I presume they are the third reincarnation of the original Onyx ORE-1. (ORE-3?)
I don´t recall this at all, but it seems that Herr Monteverdi had plans to continue in 1991. The basic '89 Onyx tub seems unchanged, but with a new airbox and engine cover. There are two modified cars on display (#35, #36) so I guess both original ORE-1/2 cars were modified. And the modified Moneytron colours of '90 are replaced by patriotic swiss colours.

[Roger Clark]

Quote

Originally posted by Vitesse2


Of the other two: if the published info is correct, then the Solitude car with the two-piece engine cover MUST have been the one destroyed at Hockenheim and buried. Therefore, unless it's a testing picture, the allegedly unraced second car DID race or hillclimb somewhere.

What follows is pure speculation; I have no additional evidence.

I still feel the most likely explanation is that number 12 is at Hockenheim. I feel sure that the car is Porsche engined; if you look closely you can see the bulges in the engine cover to clear the carburettors. Whether it is the Solitude car modified or the other one, we have no way of telling.

I can't find the reference, but I have a vague memory that the heart of the engine problem at Solitude was overheating. If this is so, it could have been made worse by the tight fitting engine cover. That could explain why it was changed for a more 718-like version.

It sould be most interesting to have confirmation of the date of the Hockenheim race. Mike Lawrence says that it was betwen Solitude and the German GP, which would tie it down precisely. However, for a private owner to be racing the week after an engine failure is quite an achievement, particularly if he had to buy a complete car to get the engine. It is also interesting that Paul Sheldon's report of the Grand Prix says of the MBM: "dna - engine not ready", not "dna - crashed beyond immediate repair the week before". I would like to know his source for that. I can't find any contemporary reference to the Hockenheim race, but it's not surprising that British magazine didn't cover a German club meeting.

It seems possible that Hockenheim was some time after the Grand Prix, giving the team time to modify the car after its failure at Solitude, an that those modifictions could not be made in time for the Grand Prix.

Two final points. Number 12 appears to be entering a left hand bend. The Hockenheim circuit at the time was virtually an oval, with all the corners going the same way. Darrren Galpin's track database shows that the circuit was run anti-clockwise, which fits. Can anyone confirm that this was so?

Lastly, what was the drivers first name? I have seen Peter, Pierre, and Pietro. It all depends on what part of Switzerland he comes from, I suppose.

[alessandro silva]

I have a picture and complete technical specs of the 1960 MBM Junior car from the Swiss "Automobil Revue", Catalogue Number 1960. It does not add much to the topic, but if somebody is interested, just e-mail me.

[Rainer Nyberg]

Last night I grabbed a book from my library, and when I read it suddenly I found an eye-opener!
A picture from the same corner as my other MBM pic in this thread!

The hunch of Felix and Vitesse and other noted members of this great society, were not far from the truth!

In my new Heini Walter picture, he is driving a Porsche RS61 in 1961, contesting a round in the Swiss hillclimb series at Hockenheim!

The similarities shared by the both pics, and the other known or intelligently guessed facts, makes me think that the MBM is also racing at Hockenheim in a Swiss hillclimb event!?

Normal track events for this Swiss championship is known to happened abroad due to the swiss ban on motorsports since 1955, strangely excluding hillclimbs.

[sat]

Here are the results of race:
ACS Preis von Hockenheim
1.10.1961
Started 10 Finished 6
12 laps

1. Porsche RS 61 - Heini Walter - 12 30:45,0=181,8 km/h (S) T3.
2. Lotus 20 - Karl Foitek - 12 30:41,200 (FJun) T4.
3. Lola - Fabian - 11 31:04,600 (?) T6.
4. Cooper - André Périat - 11 32:06,200 (F3) T7.
5. Cooper - Walter Habegger - 10 32:12,700 (F3) T8.
6. Cooper - Müller - 10 32:57,700 (F3) T9.
Retired
MBM-Porsche - Peter Monteverdi - 10 - (F1) T2. - Accident
Lotus 19 Monte Carlo - Charles Vögele - 6 - (SP) T1. - piston
Lotus - Jörg Wyssbrod - 5 - (?) T5.- gearbox
Cooper - Günthart - 3 - (F3) T10. - oil pressure

[Vitesse2]

sat:up: !!!! Looks like Roger's "speculation" was correct! This would presumably mean that there was only one car raced and that the number 12 in the museum is the second car mocked up to look like the destroyed and buried one in its last race. I'm still wondering about that spaceframe though - have they exhumed and preserved it?

Whatever, I think we've managed to rewrite a little bit of history here (or at least correct an error or two).

[Marcor]

Mike Lawrence will have to change that sentence: That was the sum of M.B.M.'s F1 career, for although it was entered in the German GP, in the intervening period it was written off in a Formule Libre race at Hockenheim in a crash which Monteverdi was lucky to survive.

How many between us thought that the Hockenheim FL race occured on July 30th, 1961, the Sunday between Solitude and the German GP ?

[Roger Clark]

Quote

Originally posted by sat

1. Porsche RS 61 - Heini Walter - 12 30:45,0=181,8 km/h (S) T3.
2. Lotus 20 - Karl Foitek - 12 30:41,200 (FJun) T4.

181 km/hr is a pretty good average for an RS61. I don't know how far behind Foitek was, sat's time is presumably a misprint as it is less than Walter's, but that sounds like a remarkable average speed too. As a comparison, Baghetti's average speed for the French GP at Reims was 193 km/hr, Trevor Taylor's for the supporting Junior race was 176 km/hr.

[Vitesse2]

In the light of what we now know, it seems David Hodges may have known that the race wasn't on that date. He doesn't mention the German GP, just saying that the car was written off at Hockenheim.

[Wolf]

I thought I'd ask, seeing that exact photo from 'A-Z of Formula...' hasn't popped up in this thread yet... It's taken at the same occasion as Roger's but from 1 o'clock instead of 11 o'clock. I can have it scanned and post it, if there's interest.

[Vitesse2]

Quote

Originally posted by Roger Clark


181 km/hr is a pretty good average for an RS61. I don't know how far behind Foitek was, sat's time is presumably a misprint as it is less than Walter's, but that sounds like a remarkable average speed too. As a comparison, Baghetti's average speed for the French GP at Reims was 193 km/hr, Trevor Taylor's for the supporting Junior race was 176 km/hr.

The Hockenheim circuit was 7.72km, so 12 laps would be 92.64km - my arithmetic isn't great, but I think 181.8km/h looks about right for the time and distance quoted. On the other hand, maybe it was only ten laps ...

And yes, post the picture Wolf - it will show people another ugly engine cover!

[Roger Clark]

The arithmatic is fine, it's the speeds which seem incredibly high to me. Reims must have been almost flat out most of the way in a Junior, and it's unlikely that Foitek's was as good as Taylor's. THe old Hockenheim was obvoiusly a very fast circuit.

[Vitesse2]

The only other Hockenheim result from that time that I can lay my hands on right now is an 1100cc 6-Hour GT race from 1960. Winning speed 156.40km/h in a Fiat-Abarth. Looks like Sat's figures are right and it was, as you say Roger, a very fast circuit.

[sat]

I agree that Foitek time is misprint (or better miswrite) of me. But I can not supply any other. Results come from Automobil revue, that I don't have.

[Vitesse2]

Ah! Just dug out some more speeds:

1947 Stuck (Cisitalia D46) 141.46km/h average

1955 Moss & Kling (Mercedes Benz W196) 206.0km/h lap in testing

And M-B also used the circuit to test the W165s before Tripoli - must have been a fast track!

[Marcor]

karl Foitek is/was the father of Gregor Foitek who drove a Monteverdi Cosworth in 1990.

It makes me think of the links between Giancarlo Minardi and the Martini family (Giancarlo and Pierluigi).

We are back again to http://8w.forix.com/lmresult.html (August 2001, Giancarlo Martini and the Ferrari 312 T)