43 replies to this topic

[biercemountain]

Prior to "Star Wars", George Lucas directed a the futuristic drama named THX 1138. One of the key scenes in the film is a high-speed chase featuring a late sixties prototype sports car and a number of motorcycles. I've watched the film closely and it looks like the car is a Lola T70 MkIIIB but I can't be certain. There is also a car that gets crashed which looks like a Ferrari 330 P4. (Why would someone crash a P4 on purpose?) None of the material I have ever read on Lucas' career ever mentions anything about these scenes but I know there is a good story here.

Does anyone know or know someone who may know what model of cars there were and who owned them? Who did the stunt driving? I know that Lucas shot the film in Marin County CA which is where Sears Point raceway is located so he probably hired the cars from there. Any information would help solve one of the great unsolved mysteries of my life.

I once wrote directly to Mr. Lucas about this matter but only got a polite form letter from his secretary in return.

BTW: Did any of you guys know that Lucas had serious aspirations to become a CART driver? He has been a motorhead all his life and had the serious racing bug. Apparently his business advisors put a stop to this idea.

Wouldn't a Star Wars sponsored F1 or CART car be awesome! The driver could dress like Darth Vader.

[Gary C]

Well listen to this : Lucas certainly had a large (-ish) hand in making 'American Grafitti', and the REGISTRATION number of Millners yellow coupe in that film is none other than THX 1138!! Check it out next time you see the film!

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by biercemountain
Prior to "Star Wars", George Lucas directed a the futuristic drama named THX 1138. One of the key scenes in the film is a high-speed chase featuring a late sixties prototype sports car and a number of motorcycles. I've watched the film closely and it looks like the car is a Lola T70 MkIIIB but I can't be certain. There is also a car that gets crashed which looks like a Ferrari 330 P4. (Why would someone crash a P4 on purpose?) None of the material I have ever read on Lucas' career ever mentions anything about these scenes but I know there is a good story here.

Does anyone know or know someone who may know what model of cars there were and who owned them? Who did the stunt driving? I know that Lucas shot the film in Marin County CA which is where Sears Point raceway is located so he probably hired the cars from there. Any information would help solve one of the great unsolved mysteries of my life.

The car was the Howmet Turbine, a turbine powered Sports Car raced in the late 60's, usually driven by Ray Heppenstall. I believe it was Ed Lowther who co-drove with Heppenstall. They ran the WSC races at Daytona (24 hours) and Watkins Glen.

I don't know who the stunt driver was, but the climactic scene was filmed in the Posey Tube, a tunnel that connects Oakland with Alameda (on an island) in Alameda County, California. It's really not that long a tunnel, so it was a nice film trick to make it seem like it went on forever.

Another racing related trivia connected to George Lucas. If you look in the credits for most of his movies (from "American Graffiti" on), transportation captain is a fellow by the name of Henry Travers. In addition to running a limo service, Travers was a short track dirt oval driver at Petaluma Speedway, who had the nickname (because of his driving on and off the track)..."Haulin'" Henry Travers.


Jim Thurman

[biercemountain]

Thanks Jim!

How do you know this info? Any idea on the car that gets wrecked?

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by biercemountain
Thanks Jim!

How do you know this info? Any idea on the car that gets wrecked?

You're welcome. How do I know this?...from being old enough to remember the Howmet Turbine!

I should have made it clear that the Howmet is the car that is destroyed in the film. I recognized the car and it's, err, umm, "performance", in the film was mentioned in some racing publications (unfortunately, that's so many years ago, I don't recall which publications). There is conflicting information on the status of the car. Some say it was completely destroyed in the movie, others say it was salvagable and restored (I'm dubious of the latter). Perhaps someone here can clear that up.

Now, if you want to stir up some interesting discussion, I suggest starting a new thread seeking info on the Howmet turbine. That ought to start something! Knowing the quality of this group, it wouldn't surprise me in the least that a picture of the car might be posted.

The Posey Tube I know from my days living in the Bay Area. I made a couple of trips through it...one just weeks after having seen the movie on local TV. The movie host pointed out the Posey Tube as site of the filming. It's one of the few times I've seen a film location so recently after having seen the film.

Henry Travers...I followed short track racing and read an article about him mentioning his burgeoning transportation service and mentioning that fellow Marin County resident George Lucas had employed him. From that point, I looked for his name in the credits.


Jim Thurman

[Mike Argetsinger]

The International Motor Racing Research Center at Watkins Glen has been gifted by Ray Heppenstall his entire archival records. The library did an oral history on Ray last year. The entire text of the history is on their web site www.racingarchives.org

Just go to the Transcripts section on the menu and you will find it easily. It includes a photo of the car. I have just reread it and recommend it to anyone interested in racing in the 50's and 60's. Like any oral history it rambles on but I guarantee that you will be riveted thoughout!

I saw Ray in June at the Research Center and had a good visit with him. He appeared in fine form.

[FLB]

We discussed the Howmet's engine in this thread

[Frank de Jong]

Originally posted by Jim Thurman


Knowing the quality of this group, it wouldn't surprise me in the least that a picture of the car might be posted.

Jim Thurman

Well, let's not wait for the separate thread. Howmet coming up:

[MOTORSPORT RESORT]

The Howmet Turbine, is owned by my friend Chuck Haines, from Can Am Cars Inc. He has lot's and lot's of great treasures, even has a BOCAR.. The Homet was at Goodwood last year running, or should I say getting ready for "Take Off"

speedy@f1power.com

www.f1power.com

[Kpy]

Nice picture Frank, thanks. Looks like it was taken at the BOAC 500 meeting at Brands Hatch 1968. The race was on 7th April - the day Jim Clark died at Hockenheim. The Howmet only lasted just over six laps that day, before Dick Thompson appeared to outbrake himself at Druids and thump the bank fairly lightly. Perhaps the throttle stuck open, as it had at Daytona. Whatever it meant that Hugh Dibley, himself an airline pilot, didn't get to "fly" it in the race.

Did the Howmet ever do any better than it's third place at Watkins Glen - 19 laps behind the winning GT40 of Ickx/Bianchi - ?? I know it retired at Sebring and both cars retired at Le Mans. was '68 its only season ?

[Gary C]

Ah, Hugh Dibley bein gone of the co-drivers would then explain why the car has a BOAC sticker on the flank, or would all cars have had them, the race being the BOAC 500??

[MOTORSPORT RESORT]

Hers's a couple of shots of the restored car at Amelia Island 2001
http://www.angelfire...2001/page2.html

speedy@f1power.com

www.f1power.com

[Frank de Jong]

Originally posted by Gary C
Ah, Hugh Dibley bein gone of the co-drivers would then explain why the car has a BOAC sticker on the flank, or would all cars have had them, the race being the BOAC 500??

IIRC all cars at the BOAC races had a sticker like that. Perhaps to qualify for prize money?

[biercemountain]

Thanks for the info guys! I've spent over 5 years chasing people who work for Lucas for this info and got absolutely nowhere. Within one day I got the info I was looking for off this board. You guys are the awesome!

[Gerr]

In Hemming's(June 2001)there is an ad "Howmet turbine,original car that raced Daytona,Sebring,LeMans and many more races in 1968,has original Continental experimental TS 325-1 turbine engine,not running,$785,000. Movieworld Collection,805-933-2088 CA." In the photo with the ad the car has TX on the nose,so it is not likely to be the Haines/Amelia Island car in Motorsport Resorts post. Maybe this is the THX/Lucas car?

[dbw]

it's been a long time but i do believe the "T-70" was a creation of the boys at "fiberfab" in oakland calif.....most likely VW powered....fiberfab was one of the original kit car companies in the US....the "aztec","jamican"and odd and assorted dune buggy stuff came out of their shops...the lola was probably a "splash" taken off a local car.....later they did the same to a lambo miura,but it never made it to market...seems the CEO murdered his wife and the company went dormant for quite a while....

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by biercemountain
Thanks for the info guys! I've spent over 5 years chasing people who work for Lucas for this info and got absolutely nowhere. Within one day I got the info I was looking for off this board. You guys are the awesome!

Yes, let me second that. I figured someone would a post a photo of the Howmet. I thought Heppenstall took the car to LeMans and another World Championship of Makes round outside the states. Also, thanks for clearing up the info on a second car. Now, as to which was used in the film...???

Mike, thanks for the link to the Heppenstall interview. Very interesting.

Good job all


Jim Thurman

[AT/\RIAN]

Sorry to bring up an old subject but I too am searching for the same answers, I don't believe it was the Howmet Turbine B/C these cars are so rare I do believe there are only 3 of these cars in existance. I think they use a Lola the cocpits are the same, tail lights are the same and all the vents are in the same places

[Pete Stowe]

The cars in the film certainly do not look like the Howmet. As the film credits include Fibre Fab Inc I would think that the vehicles used were correctly identified in an earlier post in this thread

Originally posted by dbw
it's been a long time but i do believe the "T-70" was a creation of the boys at "fiberfab" in oakland calif.....most likely VW powered....fiberfab was one of the original kit car companies in the US....the "aztec","jamican"and odd and assorted dune buggy stuff came out of their shops...the lola was probably a "splash" taken off a local car.....later they did the same to a lambo miura,but it never made it to market...seems the CEO murdered his wife and the company went dormant for quite a while....

The Howmet offered for sale in Hemmings would be the original prototype, which has been in California for some years. Although the advert mentions the Continental TS325 engine, the car is a non-runner because the engine is only a display one - with no internals as I understand it. The original TS325 engines were always the property of Continental and were returned to them before the two cars were sold by Howmet to Ray Heppenstall (for one dollar) in 1971.

The second of the original cars, now owned by Chuck Haines, is the one rolled by Dick Thompson at Le Mans, then rebuilt with an open body and used by Heppenstall to set some speed records in 1970. An Allison engine was used when Bob McKee rebuilt this car in the late 1990s, now with coupe body again, for Haines. This is the car that has appeared at Elkhart Lake, Goodwood and elsewhere.
In 1968 McKee also produced a spare chassis, which never got used at the time. I understand McKee has also built this up into a coupe for Chuck Haines, this "new" car being completed in 2000.

In 1968, in addition to racing in World Championship rounds at Daytona, Sebring, Brands Hatch, Watkins Glen and Le Mans (both cars running at the Glen & Le Mans), the car also ran in the Oulton Park Spring Cup, and in the USA in SCCA races at Cumberland (2nd), Grattan, Brainerd (3rd), Huntsville (1st - and first race win by a turbine-powered car), and Marlboro where Thompson & Heppenstall won the Marlboro 300.

[bill moffat]

Good to see pictures of the Howmet again. That roof-mounted intake pre-dated the Group C designs of the 1980's/90's by a few years. Is there any truth in the fact that the cars retirement from the BOAC 500 was due to the fact that it lacked any workable reverse gear and thus became marooned at Druids ?

If contracts had worked out Jimmy Clark would have driven the Ford F3L prototype in Kent that day, instead he was driving F2 at bloody Hockenheim...........

[Pete Stowe]

Originally posted by bill moffat
Is there any truth in the fact that the cars retirement from the BOAC 500 was due to the fact that it lacked any workable reverse gear and thus became marooned at Druids ?

To satisfy the technical regs in 1968 the car had a separate aircraft electric starter motor unit to provide reverse – how effective it was I don’t know. All the accounts of the incident have the car going off at Druids after the wastegate stuck - equivalent to a throttle jamming open. From a picture of the car being retrieved, the left hand front wing is clearly smashed, and from the angle of the wheel it also looks as if the front suspension is broken, so I doubt that the car was going to go any further anyway. The damage couldn't have been too severe though, as it was repaired within 4 days in time for the Oulton Park Spring Cup the following weekend.

[Don Capps]

By request.

[biercemountain]

I got the new DVD of THX 1138 that's out and it's answered a lot of questions about the cars used in the tunnel chase sequence.

I'd post screen captures but because of copyright issues I'm reluctant to do so.

Based on visual inspection I'm certain two of the cars are Lola T70's. The first is the white car with blue stripe that Robert Duval drives and the second is an olive green T70 that the "hologram" gets into.

To the left of the green car is what appears to be a red Ferrari 330P3 Spider.

In the Directors commentary Mr. Lucas says regarding the cars, "I'm a big racing fan and knew a lot of guys who raced cars and stuff so I was able to aquire a few race cars and redress them..."

In addition he says, "We'd shoot at night because it was the only way we could close off these tunnels...and these tunnels acted like an amplifier...we had these huge race car sounds coming out at two in the morning and all the neighbors would call the cops. A couple of times we actually got shut down..."

Regarding the sound of the cars, it was acheived by using a recording of an F86 landing at Almeda Air base in California. Of course that original sound was heavily manipulated but according to the sound designer, "All the sounds of the car were based on a foot and a half of tape"

The sound of the motorcycles was achieved by recording four women in a bathroom, screaming at the top of their lungs and then manipulating it.

Although there is a credit for Fibrefab at the end of the movie, I doubt the car that either of the T70's were kit cars. George's reference to "race cars" strongly indicates that to me at least. Perhaps Fibrefab assisted in the modifications of the cars.

The Ferrari 330P3 which appears briefly is the car I'm most curious about. I guess it could be some sort of Fibrefab kit car but based on comparing it with pictures of the real thing, I'd have to say it's probably authentic.

And to think that it's now one of the most valuable cars ever.

[mera308gtb]

Originally posted by dbw
it's been a long time but i do believe the "T-70" was a creation of the boys at "fiberfab" in oakland calif.....most likely VW powered....fiberfab was one of the original kit car companies in the US....the "aztec","jamican"and odd and assorted dune buggy stuff came out of their shops...the lola was probably a "splash" taken off a local car.....later they did the same to a lambo miura,but it never made it to market...seems the CEO murdered his wife and the company went dormant for quite a while....

FYI, Fiberfab used to have huge color advertisements in the car mags throughout the 70's and 80's. They also placed kit cars on display in various airports around the country. Unfortunately, Fiberfab gained a very poor reputation in regards to their customer service and business practices. Many car mags would not warn their readers as Fiberfab was a very lucrative advertiser. There is a long-running kit car web site that pracically grew from anecdotes of disappointed and angry Fiberfab customers.

By the way, in Star Wars when Luke and Han go to rescue Princess Leia from the detention center, C-3PO tells them that she is in sector 1138. (Yes, I am a bit of a geek. )

[dbw]

fiberfab learned early on that for every "builder" there were thousands of wannabes...as soon as they started charging a hefty price for a "literature package" that included assembly instructions as well as a collection of glamor shots... it became obvious where the $$$ really was...the marginal buiness practises suffered even more.

[dosco]

biercemountain:
I've seen the ads for the DVD, and have seen the movie on "Bravo."

Where did you purchase your copy?

Jim Thurman:
Where is the Posey Tube? Is it closed? I lived in Fairfield/Vacaville for about 3 years when I was in the USAF and I never stumbled across that tunnel. Is it still open?

When I lived in the area, IIRC the bridge 'exits' to Treasure Island/Yerba Buena Island were not open to the public.....of course, this was back in 1996 or so and my memory could be off.

[biercemountain]

I got my copy of THX 1138 at Wal-Mart.

I forgot to mention in my previous post that the motor cycle crash that occurs after Robert Duval has run into the scaffolding was probably THE most harrowing incedent to take place during filming.

I'd always thought that a dummy had been put on the bike for the stunt due to the severity of the crash which catapults the rider over the handlebars, down onto the pavement and BAM right into the car with the bike smashing into both.

Turns out the stunt rider was trying a little too hard and missed his marks causing him to be thrown from the bike the way he was. Fortunately he was unhurt, but when it happened George's immediate thought was, "Oh my god he's dead".

After the film crew rushed over to investigate the rider was furious that they hadn't waited for a few seconds to make sure the shot could be used in the film.

His feeling was, "If I'm gonna kill myself doing a stunt, the least you can do is make sure it can be used."

What a work ethic!

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by dosco
Jim Thurman:
Where is the Posey Tube? Is it closed? I lived in Fairfield/Vacaville for about 3 years when I was in the USAF and I never stumbled across that tunnel. Is it still open?

When I lived in the area, IIRC the bridge 'exits' to Treasure Island/Yerba Buena Island were not open to the public.....of course, this was back in 1996 or so and my memory could be off.

The Posey Tube connects Alameda Island with Oakland. It re-opened last year after a three year earthquake retrofit. There also is a bridge on the South end of the island, but at least in the late 70's it was just a two lane drawbridge.

A good history of the Posey Tube is at the following website:

http://www.alamedain.../Posey_Tube.htm

And more contemporary photos at:

www.westcoastroads.com/california/ca-061

In addition he says, "We'd shoot at night because it was the only way we could close off these tunnels...and these tunnels acted like an amplifier...we had these huge race car sounds coming out at two in the morning and all the neighbors would call the cops. A couple of times we actually got shut down..."

No kidding!. When I went through the Tube it was very, very noisy. Far beyond any other tunnel I've been through. Being narrow and having high sides - it amplified all traffic noise. And the carbon monoxide was very noticable. More so than most tunnels.

I can't imagine what it is like to commute daily through the Tube.


Jim Thurman

[theunions]

Originally posted by biercemountain
BTW: Did any of you guys know that Lucas had serious aspirations to become a CART driver? He has been a motorhead all his life and had the serious racing bug. Apparently his business advisors put a stop to this idea.

Wouldn't a Star Wars sponsored F1 or CART car be awesome! The driver could dress like Darth Vader.

The October issue of Premiere magazine arrived today with a feature on the Star Wars trilogy in conjunction with the DVD release. It includes a section titled "The Need for Speed:"

In Dale Pollock's Skywalking, George Lucas speaks fondly of his love of car racing: "The engine, the noise, being able to peel rubber through all four gears with three shifts, the speed. It was the thrill of doing something really well." A 1962 crash, fictionalized in American Grafitti, may have caused him to rethink racing, but it never quenched his need for speed.

[biercemountain]

According to one of my friends who works within Lucasfilm it wasn't an accident (either real or on film) that put the end to George's racing aspirations. IT WAS HIS LAWYERS. After "Star Wars" he was just too valuable a commodity to be risking life and limb driving cars when he could be making giga bucks off his films.

And speaking of accidents, apparently George suffered a near fatal one while driving his hotrod as a youth. He was thrown clear of the car when his seat belts failed which apparently saved his life. Had he stayed strapped in the car an entire chunk of our popular culture would have been sadly missing.

[Muzza]

And guess who is the owner of California license plate THX 1138?

Mr. George Lucas.

[theunions]

Originally posted by biercemountain
And speaking of accidents, apparently George suffered a near fatal one while driving his hotrod as a youth. He was thrown clear of the car when his seat belts failed which apparently saved his life. Had he stayed strapped in the car an entire chunk of our popular culture would have been sadly missing.

Would that be the 1962 one referenced in Premiere? He would've been 19 then (I think the same feature says he's 61 now).

[biercemountain]

Originally posted by theunions
Would that be the 1962 one referenced in Premiere? He would've been 19 then (I think the same feature says he's 61 now).

I read about it in a Lucas biography if I'm not mistaken. I'm sure both it and the Premier article you mention are talking about the same incident. I recall him mentioning these big padded shoulder straps on his hotrod which he was so proud of but which immediately failed during the wreck thus causing him to be thrown from the car.

If they'd really done their job he would have surely died in the smoldering heap that his car became.

Lucas still stratches his racing bug though. He participated a couple of times in the celebrity races that were held as part of the Long Beach CART races.

[biercemountain]

With all due respect to those posting about the Howmet Turbine, this thread is about the movie THX 1138, the vehicles used in the movie and the creator of that movie George Lucas.

Seeing as it has been determined that the Howmet played no part in the movie and there is another thread specifically about the Howmet, perhaps you guys should be posting information of this unique race car there.

[ghinzani]

And if you have'nt seen the film I urge you to rent, beg or steal a copy - its superb!

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by biercemountain
With all due respect to those posting about the Howmet Turbine, this thread is about the movie THX 1138, the vehicles used in the movie and the creator of that movie George Lucas.

Seeing as it has been determined that the Howmet played no part in the movie and there is another thread specifically about the Howmet, perhaps you guys should be posting information of this unique race car there.

Quite right, and entirely my fault - apologies!

They've now joined Doug's thread here.

[biercemountain]

Originally posted by ghinzani
And if you have'nt seen the film I urge you to rent, beg or steal a copy - its superb!

Agreed. Although it was poorly received when it was released, THX 1138 is in my opinion an undisputed classic on many different levels. The story is a unique commentary on society, the cinematography is superb and the sound design broke new ground.

"For efficiency, consumption is being standardized…We're sorry"

[ggnagy]

I just got this link last night, and I cannot find mention of it anywhere else on TNF. It is called 1:42.08 and is nothing but footage of Pete Brock driving a Lotus 23 at what looks like Willow Springs. The film was made by Mr Lucas while he was still a student. I don't know how long this will remain on the net.

[brucemoxon]

It seems Mr Lucas likes leaving hints of his early work scattered about....


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1138_(number)


Bruce Moxon

[fbarrett]

Friends:

George Lucas was also involved with Cobra CSX2128, the black-with-yellow-stripes team roadster driven by Dan Gurney at Sebring in 1963. After that, the car was sold to Shelby dealer Coventry Motors in Walnut Creek, Calif. GL, then just 19-years old, designed a new yellow paint job for it. Named "The Executor," signified in black paint on the rear fenders, it was driven by Alan Grant. When I asked AG about that name, he replied, "It meant that the car and the driver were always in total control." Apparently Brock and Lucas liked the yellow/black diagonal stripe theme.

Frank

[ghinzani]

Originally posted by biercemountain


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by ghinzani
And if you have'nt seen the film I urge you to rent, beg or steal a copy - its superb!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Agreed. Although it was poorly received when it was released, THX 1138 is in my opinion an undisputed classic on many different levels. The story is a unique commentary on society, the cinematography is superb and the sound design broke new ground.

"For efficiency, consumption is being standardized…We're sorry"

For me its a great reason to keep hold of a VCR so I can watch this classic film when I am 'working' up in my office. Along with 2001 and Fahrenheit 451 this is the best of the late 60s/early 70s Sci-fi films - but dont let the Sci-fi tag put you off, this isnt Star Trek or even Star Wars, more a classic story set in the future.

[Frank S]

Link from the BRE site, including information and still photos:

Pete Brock's Lotus 23 episode at Willow Springs - Lucas connection

Sign up for the Brock Racing Enterprises newsletter (Mention my name) (What have you got to lose?)

[Macca]

Footage of the car chase from THX1138 is on Youtube - the cars look like modified T70 Mk111s, the early versions, with bits added to the engine cover. The one on the left that looks like a Ferrari P3 is one of the 'Thomassina' cars.

Paul M

[eldougo]

Finally got to watch this movie ,strange but good.