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'Grand Prix' - the out-takes?


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#1701 Michael Ferner

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Posted 21 February 2018 - 09:02

Haha, not "only on the DVD", it's just that TV always cut it out! Overture and/or Intermission were not that strange in sixties cinema, many big productions used them.

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#1702 Alan Baker

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Posted 21 February 2018 - 10:21

Grand Prix was a roadshow movie, hence the overture and intermission. A roadshow was an exclusive presentation at a single cinema at higher than normal prices with just two screenings per day and with all seats bookable and running for several months (the record was South Pacific, which played at the Dominion Tottenham Court Road for four and a half years). Most cinemas (including West End houses like the Odeon Leicester Square) showed films on a continuous basis with unreserved seats (i.e. you could go in at any time and see the programme round to the point that you had come in). Thus, in the UK Grand Prix opened at the Casino Cinerama Theatre in London on March 9th 1967 showing at 2.30 and 7.45 daily, but with four shows on Saturdays (2pm, 5.20pm, 8.40pm and midnight). After this it would have opened at other 70mm roadshow houses in the major cities, but in London and the South East you had to go to the Casino, where it played for 32 weeks then transferred to the Coliseum Cinerama for a further ten weeks. The UK general release followed the Casino run on November 12th 1967, playing the ABC circuit beginning as usual with North London for one week followed by a week in South London and then working its way around the country (most local cinemas would have shown it three times a day on a continuous basis, but still with the overture and intermission). There was no such thing at the time as a simultaneous national release, films started in London and worked their way around the country to save on print costs. Films played for one week only irrespective of the business they did. You couldn't hold on to a popular film, because the print was committed elsewhere the following week. As a matter of interest, the film which played the week before Grand Prix on the ABC circuit was Robbery, which had a pretty good car chase at the beginning. The week after Grand Prix you would find Quatermass and the Pit at your local ABC.



#1703 Glengavel

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Posted 21 February 2018 - 10:56

Haha, not "only on the DVD", it's just that TV always cut it out! Overture and/or Intermission were not that strange in sixties cinema, many big productions used them.

 

Last film I saw with an intermission was the director's cut of 'Lawrence of Arabia'; given that it runs for nearly 4 hours, it was probably a good idea.



#1704 ddmichael

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Posted 21 February 2018 - 11:09

Sometimes the lighting is terrible and the pacing is not as slick as a modern movie. It even has an overture and an intermission like some sort of stage production.
 

 

Just to spring to the defence of Mr Frankenheimer and the great D.O.P. Lionel Lindon, the photography on Grand Prix was attempting something that had never been done before, nor has, I believe, since: the use of what was then incredibly bulky 70mm camera equipment entirely on location. The naturalistic lighting and use only of real locations for the filming was an integral part of Frankenheimer's desire to make the film as realistic as possible and this caused a number of issues during the production, but they persevered. Had they wanted perfect non-naturalistic lighting they'd have shot the film on the MGM soundstage and it would have looked like every other studio melodrama, as a consequence of which I doubt we'd be discussing it now...

 

As for the intermission I think that this was standard practice at the time for films with extended running times, and remains that way - Tarantino's Hateful 8 played with an intermission (in the 70mm screenings at least).

 

And I'll happily sit back and enjoy the pacing of any 1960's film over that of an over-edited modern action film. Films today are edited so tightly - largely for the purposes of reducing running time (more screenings per day) and so that the audience don't have to put their phones down for too long -  as to basically eradicate any characterization beyond the most obvious (for example, just look at the lack of recognizable character actors these days - the bit parts no longer exist because they slow the pacing). Technology might have improved, but the motives/techniques of the studios and filmmakers have not imho - just have a look at one of The Fast and the Furious films for a chilling indication of how a modern motor racing film might look.

 

Grumble over  :stoned:


Edited by ddmichael, 21 February 2018 - 11:10.


#1705 Michael Ferner

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Posted 21 February 2018 - 11:44

Amen to that. Modern film pacing is just... awful. About the only thing still worse are modern soundtracks. As an example, I found the movie "Interstellar" just about tolerable, but for the incredibly loud and tasteless "music". Ugh!

#1706 PayasYouRace

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Posted 21 February 2018 - 12:39

For the record the lighting I was referring to was in some of the studio scenes. The racing footage is glorious.

Pacing isn’t about just speed. It’s about how major plot points are built up to and trailed away from. Not every modern film gets it right of course, ones that do are far superior to most films from era.

#1707 RogerFrench

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Posted 21 February 2018 - 14:45

The overture and intermission were in the cinema in London in 1966. I bought ice cream in the intermission.

#1708 BRG

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Posted 21 February 2018 - 18:14

The overture and intermission were in the cinema in London in 1966. I bought ice cream in the intermission.

That's right. I think I was behind you in the queue.  I had a Kia-Ora orange drink.  Whatever happened to that?  Or to Idris, the other orange drink you used to get in cinemas?



#1709 DogEarred

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Posted 21 February 2018 - 18:54

I drink Idris when I's dry - was their slogan, if I remember.



#1710 john winfield

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Posted 21 February 2018 - 18:57

Didn't Idris make ginger beer too?



#1711 Paul Parker

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Posted 21 February 2018 - 19:28

Didn't Idris make ginger beer too?

 

Yes



#1712 ddmichael

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Posted 22 February 2018 - 09:41

For the record the lighting I was referring to was in some of the studio scenes. 

 

There are no studio scenes - everything except the shot of the rain on the stopwatch was filmed on location - that's what makes it unique for a 70mm production. The stopwatch shot was set up in the studio car park, I believe.



#1713 Alan Baker

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Posted 22 February 2018 - 09:57

To those who saw this in a cinema in London in 1966, refer to my previous post. It opened in London in March 1967!



#1714 RogerFrench

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Posted 22 February 2018 - 13:13

To those who saw this in a cinema in London in 1966, refer to my previous post. It opened in London in March 1967!


Oops!

#1715 Ian G

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Posted 23 February 2018 - 10:24

To those who saw this in a cinema in London in 1966, refer to my previous post. It opened in London in March 1967!

 

It would have be a similar date in Sydney,i was still at School so middle/late 1967 or early 1968.

It was shown at the Cinerama Theatre in George Street and had a long run IIRC as we saw it twice.



#1716 Sebastian Tombs

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Posted 23 February 2018 - 18:51

I saw it at the ABC Bristol in Bristol Road Birmingham.  At turfing out time the southbound Bristol Road was like a scene from the film!  My Morgan got out-dragged by a Healey who waited for me at the Priory Road lights.  I should have turned right but accepted the challenge and this time, from a standing start, was successful...we must have been near to three figures near Pebble Mill Rd...what naughty boys :rotfl: :rotfl:  AAMOI we used to test R4D, Tommy Norton up, down a back street in Smethwick while the local copper kept cavey on his 'LE' Velo noddy bike...different times :up:

 

ST :wave:



#1717 PayasYouRace

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Posted 23 February 2018 - 21:45

There are no studio scenes - everything except the shot of the rain on the stopwatch was filmed on location - that's what makes it unique for a 70mm production. The stopwatch shot was set up in the studio car park, I believe.


The indoor scenes? Isn’t there a scene in a house with circuit diagrams on the walls or something? I seem to remember that being really badly lit.

#1718 ellrosso

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Posted 24 February 2018 - 19:38

That was the Stoddard family pile and agreed, the lighting in that scene was ordinary. There were quite a few indoor scenes actually - Monaco hotel room, couple of bar scenes, nightclub, memorabilia room with Yves Montand and Eve Marie Saint, Ferrari factory. Some lit better than others, probably dependent on time schedules and the size of the space, available light etc. I thought for the time the DOP did a very good job, especially the natural light footage. The film looked amazing on the big screen for the first time - seen at the Hoyts in Hobart as an 11 yr old in 1967.



#1719 2F-001

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Posted 24 February 2018 - 19:47

I thought the house with the circuit diagrams on the wall was Sarti's place, not the Stoddart home, no?


Edited by 2F-001, 24 February 2018 - 19:48.


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#1720 Macca

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Posted 24 February 2018 - 21:12

The Stoddard house had lots of photos and paintings of Roger Stoddard; Sarti’s flat at Monza was in Mimo Dei’s house with the circuit maps in the hall.

Paul M

#1721 Bonde

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Posted 24 February 2018 - 21:45

I may have overlooked this earlier in this long thread, but has anyone else noticed the little fella in the grey sweater leaning against the fence? I'm convinced that it's Teddy Mayer. Did he have a role in the movie?

Sk_rmbillede_1038.png


Edited by Bonde, 24 February 2018 - 21:46.


#1722 ddmichael

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Posted 26 February 2018 - 16:44

Indeed, all interiors were shot using real buildings, which proved an issue when trying to provide sufficient light in the more confined spaces. One look at the size of a contemporary 70mm Panavision camera along with dolly track, lighting and sound equipment, plus crew, can leave little doubt that it was a challenge to shoot on such locations, hence the occasional dark corner, but then I've founds spots in the real world that are less than perfectly illuminated.  :cool:

 

Warning, film studies lecture :rolleyes: :

 

What truly sets Grand Prix apart from every other racing film (with one exception) is the degree of involvement Frankenheimer had in the staging of the racing scenes - he made it the primary narrative force - to my mind it's the first auteur action film. Until Frankenheimer came along the studio philosophy had always been 'we'll send the second unit off to catch some footage of the cars and shoot the real story on the backlot'. Frankenheimer's approach was very different and clearly influenced more by the European cinema verite model of film-making (as he said himself), in that he wanted his protagonists to inhabit the real environment of Grand Prix racing, to the extent that he was willing to occasionally forsake aesthetic perfection in favour of aesthetic realism. Hence the characters wander around the real Monza paddock on race weekend, they get drunk in a real pub, Stoddard's crutches rattle down a real wooden staircase with unintentionally muffled sound etc etc. Of course at the time he couldn't have known that he'd also be creating a fairly incredible historic document, he just wanted to shoot a realistic film, hence basing all of his major plot points on real-life events (mostly found within the pages of Daley's Cars at Speed) and persuading MGM that the only way to make the film was to build a field of cars and take them to the races. 

 

Ultimately we're fortunate that Frankenheimer's stock was as high as it was at the time he made the film, as he did so with complete artistic freedom, but the sad fact is that had Stanley Kubrick and David Lean not spent so much time and money on their MGM 70mm epics, and as great artistes been allowed to deliver them long after their projected release dates, Grand Prix might have been an even better film, with a US Grand Prix sequence and perhaps even some of the Nurburgring footage included. Apparently the release date just didn't allow them enough time to complete the editing of those sequences, so they were binned. Which comes back to the title of this thread, the out-takes, because whilst MGM burned everything I wonder if Warners did the same with the Nurburgring footage MGM apparently had to hand over to them, the race organisers having signed a contract with the John Sturges Day of the Champion project. As I think I've mentioned here before, somewhere in the vaults at Warner Bros. might just lurk hours worth of 70mm footage from the '66 German Grand Prix, but sadly I doubt we'll ever see it... 



#1723 Michael Ferner

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Posted 26 February 2018 - 16:54

The one exception is "Driven", isn't it?


And yes, that's Teddy Mayer. I don't think he cared about having a role in the movie, he had a role in the racing instead, and that's probably all that mattered to him.

#1724 ddmichael

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Posted 26 February 2018 - 17:38

The one exception is "Driven", isn't it?
 

 

No, no - I was referring to the masterpiece Days of Thunder  :rotfl:



#1725 Michael Ferner

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Posted 26 February 2018 - 17:52

Well, that makes three cinematographic highlights in three subsequent posts - Grand Prix, Driven and Days of Thunder. How much poorer would the world be without these? :yawnface:

#1726 Geoff E

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 12:01

https://i2-prod.glou...coise-Hardy.jpg

#1727 john winfield

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 12:16

 

 

 

Mmmmmmm. Sausages.



#1728 Rob29

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Posted 21 June 2018 - 13:14

Mmmmmmm. Sausages.

MMM-where did you find that :clap:



#1729 Sebastian Tombs

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Posted 21 June 2018 - 15:09

MMM-where did you find that :clap:

 

mmm- I think Gloucestershire Life have made a bit of a Horlicks out of their interpretation of that picture :rotfl:

 

ST :wave:



#1730 Macca

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Posted 09 April 2019 - 19:48

tumblr-pd9k8c6-TF41toxp0vo9-1280.jpg

 

Now I've got your attention...…………….there are still more photos out there; there are dozens on the commercial sites such as Getty, Alamy, Motor Sport and Shutterstock (including some that used to be freely available without watermark and copyright). I wouldn't normally post any of them but this one is interesting as it appears to be another out-take, of Yamura talking to Sarti at Brands:

 

ym-tm-brands_(1).jpg

 

and of course we sadly lost Jim Russell recently - he is in this group at Brands :

 

Image_(81).jpg

 

Paul M



#1731 Terry Walker

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Posted 10 April 2019 - 01:03

Last night, surfing channels during an ad break here in Perth, Aust, I found myself watching Grand Prix, arriving at the moment the Monza race got underway.  A little late in the movie to start watching, but stll fun.


Edited by Terry Walker, 10 April 2019 - 01:03.


#1732 cmotd

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Posted 16 August 2019 - 09:04

This article may be of interest:

https://slotracer.online/grand-prix/



#1733 Macca

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Posted 16 August 2019 - 10:59

Ah...I was going to post about that over the weekend.

 

Some time (years) ago a member posted some of those photos which have long-since disappeared, so it is good that they have come into the public domain.

 

I don't know if that site has all the photos from the collection, if not then hopefully more might appear.

 

ed7a217a-fdb1-11e6-87d8-739f2dba3495.jpg

 

Meanwhile, here is another reason why Sarti may have been out of favour with Manetta...

 

Paul M



#1734 cmotd

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Posted 18 August 2019 - 11:12

It was me who posted the photos all those years ago which disappeared when PhotoBucket started playing silly buggers. Yes, that site, of which I am an admin, has the full collection available and the complete set is still  in my possession. It is unlikely that any more will be put up though as the amount of preparation for web display is enormous and very time consuming. It took nearly a month to compile that article. The sheets developed in Italy are meticulously produced. The negatives all line up perfectly, and are square with the edges of the photographic paper. They are all really well developed, with very few dust or scratch marks, and even now after more than 50 years they still retain all the clarity and contrast that you'd wish for. The sheets devoped in France however, were faded, dirty, and haphazard, and they took a fair amount of work to clean up. Unless someone would like to buy the collection and do the prep themselves then that is probably the sum total of the ones that will be publicly available.

 

A few more can be found HERE.


Edited by cmotd, 18 August 2019 - 11:21.