7 replies to this topic

[Chris Bloom]

I know figures of up to 1500bhp have been mentioned in connection to the mid-eighties F1 Turbo cars. Are these figures possibly a slight exaggeration?

In the latest issue of SA Motorsport, they have an article (syndicated from F1 Racing) on the Mclaren MP4-2 and they quote the maximum power as 650bhp. We all know the Mclarens dominated 1984 with that car and I would have thought that their TAG-Porsche motors were just as powerful as any other on the grid.

Maybe the 650bhp quoted is the race spec engine, but I don't believe there would be such great a difference between a qualifying and race engine.

It's usually the Brabham - BMW that is linked to these fantastic power out puts, if they really did have such a big power advantage then they should all be shot for not achieving more with it. Anyway in todays F1, a 100bhp power difference between the Ferraris and Minardis seems to be worth 4 seconds, a 850bhp advantage should be worth almost half a minute;)

Chris

[Zawed]

In Doug Nye's History of the GP car 1966-1985, on pg 144, Barnard admits to having around 750bhp in race tune. The first TAG turbo had 600bhp on the dyno according to Porsche. The BMW turbo engine of 1984 was reckoned to be about 850bhp, maybe more. In 1985, apparently 1270bhp was realized on the Porsche dynos. In races some of the speeds reached at Monza and Paul Ricard indicate at least 1100 bhp (pg 149). Trouble with the BMW it was so unreliable in 84, while in 1985, Brabham were using Pirellis which was a handicap at some races.

[_Hink]

I remember reading in late 1983 that Brabbham could pump up the turbo to 1200-1400 hp for qualifying, in which case it might last 5 minutes.

I don't have the source anymore, nor can it be verified obviously, so take it FWIW - probably near zero.

[Megatron]

On a story of the poweroutputs the other day, I heard the TAG Porsche listed at 950 HP in 1986.

[Rainer Nyberg]

Engine - Nat - Config - Bore x Stroke - Max pwr - weight - VPC - wins - period

Alfa 890T V8.........I...V90...74,0 x 43,5...760/11800...170...4....0...1983-87
Alfa 415T............I...L4....92,0 x 56,4...830/na......124...4....0....(1986)
BMW M12/13...........D...L4....89,2 x 60,0...900/9500....165...4....9...1981-87
Ferrari 126C.........I...V120..81,0 x 48,4...920/11000...177...4...14...1981-86
Perrari 90deg V6.....I...V90...81,0 x 48,4...920/11500...na....4....2...1987-88
Ford TEC V6..........GB..V120....na x na.....900/12000...136...4....0...1986-87
Hart 415T............GB..L4....88,0 x 61,5...740/10000...140...4....0...1981-85
Honda RA163E V6......J...V80...80,0 x 49,0...950/11300...160...4...34...1983-88
Honda RA168E V6/2,5b.J...V80...79,0 x 50,6...685/12500...146...4....-......1988
Megatron S4..........D...L4....89,2 x 60,0...900/9500....165...4....0...1987-88
Motori Moderni 6VTC..I...V60...80,0 x 49,7...720/11300...154...4....0...1985-86
Osella 890T V8.......I...V90...74,0 x 43,5...760/11800...170...4....0......1988
Renault EF1-15 V6....F...V90...86,0 x 43,0...850/11000...180...4...20...1977-86
TAG Porsche PO1 V6...D...V80...82,0 x 47,3...900/11000...150...4...25...1983-87
Zakspeed 4 Turbo.....D...L4....90,4 x 58,2...850/10800...160...4....0...1985-88

[Chris Bloom]

Thanks Rainer, those look like more realistic power outputs.

Chris

[Milan Fistonic]

In Ian Bamsey's book, A History of the Turbocharged Racing Car, he starts the chapter on 1987 Grand Prix cars with this.

In 1987 FISA introduced an Indy-style 'pop off' valve to restrict boost to 4.0 bar absolute. Nevertheless, by the end of the season Cosworth had managed to extract over 1000 bhp - arguably the most impressive power per litre per bar boost of the high boost era.

In the previous chapter on the 1986 cars he has this to say about the Benetton-BMW.

...in Italy where Berger used the big turbo and sky high boost to clock the fastest ever Formula One speed - 218.238 mph. Byrne says: 'Mader did a lot of development work on the qualifying set up. At Monza we saw a 5.5 bar flash reading - Mader estimated that was worth over 1300 bhp.

[karlcars]

As for BMW, here is what the authorized company history says about the turbo engines of 1985:

At Monza there was open talk for the first time of the magic 1,000 bhp produced by the Munich four-cylinder, but Piquet must have had considerably more power to take him to second on the grid in practice. On its test bed BMW Motorsport was able to run the engine with a maximum boost pressure of 5.1 bar, giving a reading of 1,065 bhp. The manometer in the cockpit of the Brabham BT54 went up to 5.5 bar, and Roland Ast reported to Paul Rosche from his readings of the memory system in the on-board computer that the boost went “right to the stops”. Thus if Nelson Piquet required more power he simply turned his “steam wheel” and had perhaps more than 1,200 bhp in the rear of his Brabham for a special occasion. Nevertheless his paltry account for the remaining five races included only two second-fastest times in practice, a second-place finish at Monza and a fifth place at Spa.

BMW prepared engines that ranged between two extremes. Peak performance was given by the practice engines, for which special Kugelfischer injection pumps were made with a diameter of 10 mm instead of the previous 8½ and 9 mm with a 4 mm stroke. Much softer race characteristics were needed for narrow street circuits like Monaco and Detroit. For the first time in 1985 Paul Rosche was able to meet the latter requirement with engines that had more punch at low revs and earlier onset of turbo assist.