37 replies to this topic

[Barry Lake]

I just found the following on a Miller/Offenhauser web site:

"Miller was the first four-wheel drive car to race in a Grand Prix. In 1934, at the Grand Prix of Tripoli, the car finished seventh, with Peter De Paolo driving.
"This same car, with Peter De Paolo driving, raced at the Avus track in Berlin in 1934. While running third, the motor exploded right in front of Hitler's reviewing stand; flying parts just missed him."

Can anyone dispute the "first 4wd car in a GP" claim? It's probably true, but often in the past I have found claims of "firsts" not to be correct.

And can anyone verify the suggestion that flying parts of the MIller engine "just missed" Hitler in 1934? I read Peter de Paolo's autobiography some years ago and don't remember mention of this - although it is possible. As amazing as it might seem, I do not remember everything I have read in my life.

[MPea3]

there is a wonderful book called "the golden age of the american racing car" which is ( i think) by clifford borgeson, the same guy who wrote offenhauser's biography, and he talks about millers being used overseas, so i'll try to find it (3 kids....) and see if i can find something, however, my feeble memory seems to recall that the only 4WD miller was the rear engine gulf/miller special, everything earlier was 2WD.

the transmission in the miller would have been completely unsuitable for road racing, it's whole purpose was to get the car into top gear and stay there.

i also believe that 2 of them were taken to europe by leon duray, were sold, and ended up "lost" in France until well after WWII.

[Gary Davies]

Originally posted by Barry Lake
... the motor exploded right in front of Hitler's reviewing stand; flying parts just missed him."

Shame the BRM V-16 didn't come 'til years later. That would definitely have got him!



Vanwall

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by Barry Lake
....."This same car, with Peter De Paolo driving, raced at the Avus track in Berlin in 1934. While running third, the motor exploded right in front of Hitler's reviewing stand; flying parts just missed him.".....

Allgemeine Automobil Zeitung 1934, No. 22, pg. 9 :....The American Peter Paolo on a 4-wheel-drive Miller retires in the middle of the track with a broken transmission."

Erwin Tragatsch in Die großen Rennjahre 1919-1939, Hallwag Verlap 1973...Peter De Paolo brought a 5.2-liter-Miller....

Paul Sheldon in A Record of Grand Prix and Voiturette Racing, Vol.3, St. Leonard Press, 1992.....Nuvolari was struggling with de Paolo in the Miller for eigth place......
.....Peter de Paolo retired after 5 laps, Connecting rod.

Tim Considine in American Grand Prix Racing, Motorbooks International, 1997....DePaolo was running third behind Stuck's Auto Union and eventual race-winner Moll in the Alfa when two rods let go in the 308-cubic-inch V-8 on the main straightaway. According to a DePaolo letter quoted in Mark Dees' landmark book, The Miller Dynasty, shrapnel from this catasclysmic blow-up "just missed 'Heil Hitler' in his box."

[Vitesse2]

Selected relevant quotes from Doug Nye's "Motor Racing Mavericks":

"As a marvellous final fling before the bailiffs moved in, the Miller team produced a pair of 307.9 cubic inch (5045.6cc) V8-engined four-wheel drive cars! They were sponsored by the Four-Wheel Drive Auto Company of Cliftonville, Wisconsin, which had been manufacturing four-wheel drive trucks to a basic design by an engineer named Otto Zachow since 1908. One of the new cars was entered for Gus Schrader as the 'Harry Miller Special' and the other for Bob McDonough as the sponsoring company's 'FWD Special'.

It was claimed that the new V8 engines produced so much power that four-wheel drive had to be used to prevent wheel-spin. ...

Both these unorthodox cars qualified very quickly [for the 1932 '500'] ... [Schrader] spun out and and clouted the retaining after only three laps and McDonough was out on the seventh lap when an oil line burst.

After this anything-but-auspicious debut for four-wheel drive, one of the cars (Miller's own) was sold to Frank and Al Scully of Chicago, joining a four-cylinder rear-drive Miller which they owned, and early in 1934 both cars were shipped to Tripoli in North Africa for the annual lottery race on the super-fast Mellaha circuit.

Peter de Paolo and Lou Moore were to drive the cars ... When they arrived in Tripolitania they were warmly greeted by the Italian Marshal Balbo, governor of the province and De Paolo drove the Marshal round the Mellaha in his four-wheel drive car. Balbo later challenged De Paolo to a race, the Marshal's light plane against the racing Miller. The Marshal won - honour was satisfied.

When practice got under way, the American contingent were staggered to find the European road racers like Chiron and Varzi a full nineteen seconds a lap faster in their Grand Prix Alfa Romeos.

They resigned themselves to a hopeless race but finished respectably with De Paolo sixth and Moore seventh. Road racing was a different world to speedway racing, and the Millers were out of their element. Moore returned to America to take part in the Indy 500 while De Paolo took the remaining car to Berlin's AVUS circuit for the nearest Continental/European approach to a speedway race. He was running in a strong third place when two con-rods let go and virtually sawed his engine in two."

As Moore drove a 2-wd Miller at Indy, by extension, De Paolo must have been in the 4-wd.

[BRG]

I seem to recall reading that Miller made front-wheel drive cars and won Indy with one in the 20s. Is that true, or have I misread 4wd for fwd?

[FLB]

Originally posted by BRG
I seem to recall reading that Miller made front-wheel drive cars and won Indy with one in the 20s.

The classic Miller 91 was FWD (one of the most beautiful cars in history IMHO, racing or non) .

[BRG]

Thanks FLB, so I was not imagining it! I suppose that they made RWD cars as well?

[fines]

Originally posted by FLB


The classic Miller 91 was FWD (one of the most beautiful cars in history IMHO, racing or non) .

No, that's not true: the 'classic' Miller 91 was RWD, only a handful (or so, from memory) FWD were built, and some other FWD cars (such as Earl Cooper's) used Miller engines in the late twenties.

[FLB]

There were some FWD at Indy in the 1950's (the first Kurtis-Novi's for instance).

As for "classic", I guess that depends on your definition of the term!;) You're absolutely right though, the 91 was indeed built in both RWD and FWD configurations. From memory, most of the ones I've seen on pictures were FWD (on ovals).

http://www.ddavid.co...ula1/miller.htm

[fines]

Ok, going through Rick Popely's Indianapolis tome, the first FWD car to compete at Indy was the Miller 121 of Cliff Durant, driven to second in 1925 by Dave Lewis. The next year, two "works" Miller 91s were entered for Lewis (15th, DNF) and Earl Cooper (16th, DNF). In 1927, Cooper entered four FWD cars with Miller 91 engines, two of his own making and the other two with Miller chassis, one probably his '26 car. Additionally, there was Lewis again, "Leon Duray", Harry Hartz, Peter DePaolo and Frank Elliott with Miller chassis FWD 91s and Tommy Milton with his home-built Detroit/Miller. Best finish was sixth of Bob McDonogh in one of the Cooper/Millers.

In 1928, the two Cooper/Millers ran again as well as one of the Cooper-owned Millers, Milton's Detroit/Miller and the Duray and DePaolo cars, as well as pure FWD Millers by Cliff Bergere, Phil Shafer, Reed & Mulligan, The Boyle team (2) and Miller himself. Best finish was again sixth, Babe Stapp in the Shafer car.

In 1929, Bergere brought his car home in 9th, and other FWD cars were three Cooper/Millers, the Detroit/Miller and pure Millers by Shafer, Duray (2), Reed & Mulligan, the Boyle team (2) and McDonogh/Dodds.

In the same period, RWD Miller 91s finished 1-2-3-4, 2-3-4, 1-2-3-4-5 and 1-2-4 as well as taking almost all the other minor placings.

[fines]

On the boards, I can find Dave Lewis winning at Altoona (1926-06-12), Charlotte (1926-08-23 and 1926-11-11) and Atlantic City (1927-05-07), Peter DePaolo at Altoona (1927-06-11), Salem (1927-07-04) and Charlotte (1927-09-19), and Leon Duray at Salem (1926-10-12 and 1928-07-04), Charlotte (1926-11-11), and Culver City (1927-03-06). That's 11 wins against 26 RWD wins in the same time span.

I found another reference in Rich Taylor's "Indy - Seventy-Five Years of Racing's Greatest Spectacle" (and longest book title! "(...) only fifty Miller 91s [were] built, and only a dozen were front-wheel drive".

[fines]

And to complete the picture, the only FWD cars to win the 500 were the Summers/Miller of owner Harry Hartz and driver Billy Arnold (1930), Hartz' Wetteroth/Miller with Fred Frame (1932), the Henning/Boyle Miller of Bill Cummings (1934) and Lou Moore's Blue Crown Specials (Deidt chassis with Offenhauser engine, 1947-49).

[Barry Lake]

I didn't really want to know any of this. It was all a ploy to keep Fines off the street! I know how much he loves doing this research - and how much trouble he can get into when he gets out of the house.

Getting back to the original Hitler question, it would seem that Peter de Paolo might have written this in a letter, somewhat "tongue in cheek".

He probably was joking that, since it was such a big blow-up, and he was passing the main grandstand at the time, pieces of the engine might have just missed Hitler.

Still, it's an interesting thought. Wasn't there another thread once, along the lines of "What would have happened in motor racing had WWII not occurred?"

What would have happened had Hitler been hit by hail of wayward Miller engine parts?

The backing of Mercedes-Benz and Auto-Union GP teams would almost certainly have ceased immediately, for a start...

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Barry Lake

"This same car, with Peter De Paolo driving, raced at the Avus track in Berlin in 1934. While running third, the motor exploded right in front of Hitler's reviewing stand; flying parts just missed him."

According to Chris Nixon (Racing the Silver Arrows, page 157), the only race Hitler attended after he came to power was Avus in 1933

[FLB]

I'll cross-post this to Trackforum. Dick Ralstin (a former PR manager for Goodyear's Racing Divison) was a good friend of de Paolo's.

He'd certainly know.

[MPea3]

wow... after looking around a little more, i found a page with info about the 4wd car from the 30's. it can be found at

http://www.4wdonline...ars/Miller.html

[dbw]

footnote....miller made two four wheel drive V-8 powered cars..,one engine was installed in a t-35 bugatti by bunny phillips and run at indy in 1941 and 1946..recently restored in colorado, the car appears at vintage events in the US.

[FLB]

I've got Dick Ralstin's answer According to him, somebody probably made up a "good" story.

http://64.224.33.174...ic&f=6&t=000694

[fines]

Originally posted by Barry Lake
I didn't really want to know any of this. It was all a ploy to keep Fines off the street! I know how much he loves doing this research - and how much trouble he can get into when he gets out of the house.

Thanks, Barry! I had a bunch of pretty girls knocking at my door last night, and who knows where this could've led me to if I hadn't been busy doing research...

[Don Capps]

I had never bought into the "flying parts almost getting Hitler" story. As it was, the AVUS race meeting was disappointing enough for Hitler and "flying debris" would not have gone unnoticed....

Of all the races Hitler chose to attend, this was probably not the best choice. One can only imagine what his presence at the 1935 GPvD would have created in terms of turmoil for the NSKK, since the fallout from the AVUS meeting was bad enough....

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Don Capps
I had never bought into the "flying parts almost getting Hitler" story. As it was, the AVUS race meeting was disappointing enough for Hitler and "flying debris" would not have gone unnoticed....

Of all the races Hitler chose to attend, this was probably not the best choice. One can only imagine what his presence at the 1935 GPvD would have created in terms of turmoil for the NSKK, since the fallout from the AVUS meeting was bad enough....

Was he there in 1934? (see my earlier post)

[Vitesse2]

Just a footnote to the AVUS race (and a bit OT) - re-reading Posthumus' "Farmer's Son", he records that Nuvolari came fifth in the race, despite having one foot in plaster from an accident at Alessandria a month before and being on crutches - he couldn't get in or out of the car unaided. He had the pedals modified so that he could control them all with one foot (!!!) and finished despite cramp and tyre troubles. Earl Howe, who was fourth, said: 'Let any who say it was foolhardy at least be honest and admit it was one of the finest exhibitions of pluck and grit ever seen. By such men are victories won!'

Amen to that!!

[ry6]

By co-incidence I discussed the issue of the Millers at Tripoli with Don Capps recently as I believe that it will make a good story for Classic Car Africa (THAT Africa theme you see).
From what I have gathered the cars were pretty good but the brakes were probably the main limiting factor that made the "difference" between their lap times and the European cars.
Does anybody know what gearbox they used - how many speeds etc as this would also have any impact?

[fines]

Originally posted by dbw
footnote....miller made two four wheel drive V-8 powered cars..,one engine was installed in a t-35 bugatti by bunny phillips and run at indy in 1941 and 1946..recently restored in colorado, the car appears at vintage events in the US.

dbw, you seem to have a very nice handle on Bugattis, do you per chance know the chassis number of the Phillips-Bugatti?

[dbw]

the phillips t-35 was originally delivered to the paris showroom march 1926 with chassis #4748 with engine #70....i would have to make a few calls to get it's early history..however phillips ran it at indy as well as the vanderbilt cup with the bug engine....to tie things together, the miller engine that phillips installed in the bug was the same one that ran at tripoli and avus...then owned by frank scully, it was shipped back to the us with two rods thru the crankcase...bunny obtained it rebuilt and installed it in the bug..

to see some photos of the phillips car and miller engine go to http://www.highmountainclassics.com/ click on "restoration" [the photo of the red/white miller ford #35 is my old car]..then click on "mechanical" for shots of the v-8 and "body" for pics of the whole car.

[fines]

Thnx dbw, you're a bug hero!;)

[Boniver]

4 septembre 1927
Grand Prix d'Italie - Monza

Peter Kreis and Earl Cooper start with Miller 91 FWD (front wheel drive) - 1500cc 8cyl

was this car

- Miller chassis with Miller motor

of

- Cooper chassis with Miller motor

and

- two "works" cars of two Cooper-owned Millers.

[fines]

Cooper chassis and Cooper engines, nothing at all to do with Miller.

[fines]

Re-reading the whole thread I realise that I'm contradicting myself here, but I have gained quite a bit of knowledge in the last six years. Of the four "Cooper Specials" running in the 1927 Indy 500, one was indeed a Miller FD chassis with a Miller 91 engine, the other three however were pure Cooper. The "Cooper" Miller was wrecked in that race by Jules Ellingboe, and subsequently rebuild as the Miller-Shafer, which was basically a Miller FD chassis with Cooper bodywork and Miller 91 engine. It was later sold to England to become the famous "Derby-Miller".

As for the three Coopers, they are often confused with real Millers because they are copies of the Miller FD/91 design - like the 1923 Sunbeam which was basically a 1922 Fiat, or the 1979 Tyrrell that was essentially a 1978 Lotus. However, a copy is not the real thing, and the Coopers were even less of a copy than the Sunbeam or the Tyrrell, and for the trained eye they are very easy to tell apart (rear bodywork and exhaust are the most obvious differences). As well as can be determined after more than 80 years, not a single Miller component was used in their construction, and they were built in their entirety in Indianapolis by the Cooper Engineering Co., at the time apparently a subdivision of General Motors/Buick Motor Division.

[fines]

Originally posted by ry6
By co-incidence I discussed the issue of the Millers at Tripoli with Don Capps recently as I believe that it will make a good story for Classic Car Africa (THAT Africa theme you see).
From what I have gathered the cars were pretty good but the brakes were probably the main limiting factor that made the "difference" between their lap times and the European cars.
Does anybody know what gearbox they used - how many speeds etc as this would also have any impact?

I'm not sure how useful this information is to you after all those years, but the gearbox is described as "a conventional three-speed transmission" (M. Dees, "The Miller Dynasty"). Weight of the cars was 1060 and 1090 kg, respectively, so somewhat in the class of a V5 Maserati or a Bimotore Alfa Romeo, which cannot have helped it either. Miller brakes were usually excellent for Speedway standards, but perhaps just suitable for road racing.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by fines
As for the three Coopers, they are often confused with real Millers because they are copies of the Miller FD/91 design - like the 1923 Sunbeam which was basically a 1922 Fiat, or the 1979 Tyrrell that was essentially a 1978 Lotus. However, a copy is not the real thing, and the Coopers were even less of a copy than the Sunbeam or the Tyrrell, and for the trained eye they are very easy to tell apart (rear bodywork and exhaust are the most obvious differences). As well as can be determined after more than 80 years, not a single Miller component was used in their construction, and they were built in their entirety in Indianapolis by the Cooper Engineering Co., at the time apparently a subdivision of General Motors/Buick Motor Division.

Or, to put it another way, they were Millers which happened to have been built by someone else

[fines]

That's a rather strange view, David, can you expand? I mean, next you are going to say the Maserati 250F was a Daimler built in Italy

[David McKinney]

No, a Maserati 250F was a Maserati built in Italy by Maserati
Although you say there are bodywork differences, that - in my book - doesn't stop them being Cooper-built Miller copies.
Perhaps I'm missing something?

[fines]

It appears so. To reiterate, a Cooper is a Cooper built in Indianapolis by Cooper. There's no question that these cars were "Miller copies", but they certainly weren't "Millers which happened to have been built by someone else"! Neither were the Duesenbergs, which by that time (1927) were also close Miller copies, at least as far as the engines were concerned!

Perhaps it is important to stress here that copying is endemic in car manufacture: in the beginning everyone copied the Daimler, then the Panhard-Levassor, then the Mercedes and so on. Many argue that most racing cars, even today, are copies of the 1912 Peugeot, and in a sense they're right. That doesn't make a Miller a Peugeot, though, or a Cooper a Miller! And it's not merely about bodywork differences, that was just a "beginners guide in telling Coopers and Millers apart"!

If you're interested in more detail, I suggest the good write-ups in Mark Dees "Miller Dynasty", chapters 22, 30 and 31. A tabulation of differences can be found in Motor Age, Vol. LI, Nr. 22, p180, "Mechanical Specifications of 1927 Indianapolis Race Cars" (June 2, 1927).

[David McKinney]

The only differences you specified, Michael, were bodywork variations.
I'll take your word for it that there were more significant departures from Miller design (including more than the fact that they weren't built at the Miller factory).

[fines]

1927 Cooper:

http://www.indy500.c...es_id=Array&o=h



1927 Miller:

http://www.indy500.c...es_id=Array&o=h



Now you tell me a Tyrrell 009 is not a Lotus 79, but a Cooper is a Miller!

[Boniver]

fines