19 replies to this topic

[Alfisti]

2 things to note on my favourite campaign of getting rid of re-fuelling.

A quote from MS "we were just sitting behind McLaren waiting for them to pit so we could pass". Whether this is true or not it doen't matter... it does outline the mentality of the drivers and the team though.

As a better example, look at what Ferrari did to pass Frentzen... they brought RB in so he could use the 2 stop strategy to pass Frentzen.......... HELLOOOOO ALL YOU Pro-fuellers... HELLLLOOO.....

It's a clear cut fact... if refuelling was banned we would have at least seen RB have a better go and it would have provided some racing... instead the boring old pit stop. Yes some people say Ferarri did this to ensure MS wins.... PUHLEASE.

In one race it is so clear that re-fuelling is ruing passing duels........ how you can say otherwise is beyond me.

[Keith Steele]

You could be right, or it could be: Well since passing is impossible we were just waiting for his car to overheat from the turbulence and the bad air my team mate was giving him.

[mono-posto]

Your very right Alfisti, However I feel that in the current configuration drivers would still have a near impossible time with passing. The sad fact is that it seams the teams have embraced 'pit strategies' as the key to winning. And without any inside objections the FIA isn't about to change it anytime soon. Even if every team did oppose it, the FIA would still be unlikely to change. They are just that thick headed.

Personally, I would LOVE to see a return to slicks and a wider track plus elimnated pitstops. But I wouldn't want the latter until we had the former.

[Nikolas Garth]

I'd rather see slicks come back first.

[magnum]

pit stops are a drag and an unnecessary risk. Also, with tyres losing traction, there would be plenty of passing because a lack of grip would mean longer braking distances which would mean more chance of passing. The whole pitstop thing really should go. Be fun to watch them controlling slicks (SLICKS) and 800bhp with hard tyres!!!!!

[Yelnats]

Without pit stops passing would become much easier because tire changes would be gone also as no one could afford to replace tires without the additional advantage of refuelling so tire stratagy would become a big factor in the races.

Drivers would no longer be able to run at near qualifying speeds so passing cars would be able to make quick runs at a leading car running a tire consrvation statagy.

Also passing would be facilitated near the end of the race because cars that have used their tires up by running fast laps would be caught by drivers with better conservation or cornering techniques.

[FerrariFanInTexas]

I fondly recall those bygone days when the cars had to complete the race with only the fuel they started with. Teams freezing the fuel to compress it into a smaller space. Teams developing exotic hydrocarbon blends to get more explosive power from a smaller volume of "fuel". Cars running out of fuel on the track, so people like Mansell could try to push the thing across the starting line.

There were problems.

But, some of the greatest racing in the history of the sport took place then. The 1000 h.p. turbos developed and somehow thrived. The tire wars were truly amazing, because nobody could afford to come into the pits to change rubber - unless everyone else did. The tires had to last longer, the drivers had to learn how to make them last.

I've come to the conclusion that re-fueling has been bad for the sport. As much as I cheer every time Brawn designs a tactical win over McLaren or Williams or whoever the main rival is, I'm not sure I like the races as much.

Probably because there is no racing, per se.

Outqualify your opponent. Beat your opponent off the line. Pray that nothing goes wrong when you pit. That's the race.

I do have some worries, though. am worried though that slicks that are "going off" will increase slides and braking distances. This is allegedly the reason for the grooved tires. But all this has done is make for a field of drivers that almost never try to outbrake the opponent into a corner. Everyone stays on-line, and hopes to have enough power to take the leading car on the straights.

What I'm saying is that banning refueling will open things up, but are there enough true DRIVERS out there today to make the racing any more interesting?

[magnum]

Ferraifan, yes and no :-)
One of the problems, at least in my opinion, for what that's worth (insert comment here) is that braking distances at the moment are too short to try any overtaking moves. When u have half a second to outbrake an opponent (when was the last time anyone outbraked anyone else in F1), u stand a chance of succeeding - when u have half that time, u stand no chance - u either brake with the guy or ure too late. So longer braking distances are key, for me, to better racing. And also no pitstops in the race - let the driver work out strategy, not the pitguys. I agree with u on that one. But this will never happen, i don't think. For some reason, and reasons which I don't understand, F1 is trying desperately to get away from itself using this catch-all "safety" requirements as a generic rule of thumb. But the racing sucks - and has done for a while. It is turning to, as u said, pit-stop strategy (if i want strategy i'll watch chess - which i do - and enjoy that more) and mistakes. The fact that Rubens did not even dare try to pass Frentzen says much about (1) the current cars and (2) the current state of mind of drivers in F1. Sad state of affairs and one that I'd love to see rectified. Slicks, 4 guys in the pit-crew ONLY, and let em at it.

[Witt]

The real reason the drivers can't overtake is because of the cars. I was sitting on the last corner in Melbourne last weekend, and Rubens Barrichello could not get within 20m of Frentzen. He was obviously trying for about the first 10 laps, then it became apparent he was going to wait.

I think re-fuelling is OK, and the cars need to be changed if we want to see more overtaking. The Wings are far too efficient these days, and unless Maxi and his buddies at the FIA decide to limit their efficiency, the current overtaking problem, or lack thereof, will only get worse in the years to come.

[Laphroaig]

This no opinion, but an observation.

F3000, 'equal' cars, LESS earo-tricks, NO pitstops, hard slicks...
I don't know if any of you watched the season, but it was mostly a procession... There was hardly any overtaking.

[yahoo]

There has to be totaly new rules if there is going to be any overtaking.

[Chris G.]

What year was refueling allowed, err, what's the story behind it's inception? THanks.

Also, the whole "there's no passing in F1" thing is a little strange. Past couple of years it seems to be the first races that lack a lot of passing. Then as the season progressed we got to some tracks (yes, and some rain) that seemed to make it a non-issue. Now it's back. Let's say we had the ideal setup for "passing" - perhaps, no refueling, slicks, etc. Wouldn't there still be some tracks that it was difficult (if not almost impossible) to pass at? I think it could be better, but I also think that the track will dictate a large part of it too.

[This message has been edited by Chris G. (edited 03-14-2000).]

[Pacific]

I'm with Garth on this one, bring back slicks first and also allow the cars to have wider tracks. Nothing wrong with F1 cars having BOTH aero and mechanical grip. If the driver has more grip, he can attempt to make more passes because odds are he won't slid off doing it and collide into the person he's passing. I say let F1 be much more like CART. Let each F1 team design their own CART type chassis and allow them to have the high tech non-turbo engines and all the other high tech stuff F1 has over CART. The Reynard, Lola, and Swift chassis are all great racing chassis in CART. With F1 having more different chassis and engines, the struggle to be competitive will be much more difficult than CART. Which is fine with me, F1 is supposed to be the pinnacle.

CART chassis aren't so unstable when passing. The great CART road courses give you some great races. While the Burke Lakefront Airport is somewhat ridiculous for a track, it sure gives you some great racing. Especially in the wet.

I agree with Adrian Newey that F1 isn't giving the designers enough to work with.

I'm not necessarily dead-set against turbos. If the teams and engine manufacturers would like them to return, that's fine. Turbos play a big part in CART with your settings. But it's either all have turbos or none. I don't feel like watching two classes of cars battling on the track with the turbos and the non-turbos.

As for pit stops, I like them. It helps keep the team more involved in the race. F1 is a team sport after all. As a NASCAR, CART, and IRL fan, I like pit stops.

It'd be pretty easy if F1 would take some notes from CART and use all the high tech in F1 to become an awesome series with great racing again instead of moving processions. With F1 tech, you should be able to be safer than a CART chassis, which is important. The more I see of that Diniz crash the more I can't believe he didn't break his neck.

All this efforts to reduce speed in the name of "safety" have created some pretty shitty racing if you ask me. I mean, I'm sorry that Ayrton Senna and Roland Ratzenburger died, but we have to move on. The safety in F1 nowadays is pretty good. We don't have to give the drivers twitchy cars. I think that's unsafe, to give drivers who by nature want to go fast, cars that have too little mechanical grip and expect them to put on a good show.

[Mila]

at first I was glad to learn of the new, lower pitlane speed limit. in fact, I still think that it's good news since this will generally encourage the teams to plan fewer stops each race. but now I'm questioning whether this simple means that a given driver will now sit behind the car in front for a greater number of laps. that is, he'll wait from the first lap or so until half-distance--when the stops come--before even thinking of advancing.

indeed, more and more often it seems that drivers are playing it safe. but who can blame them--the pressure on drivers is for results, and not show. so why even contemplate a passing attempt?

indeed aerodynamics is limiting passing, but we could also cast a critical eye on the lousy, "green" track conditions that seem to conspire against the drivers. no only can a driver not get to close to the car in front, he can't go off line to overtake either.

[Indian Chief]

OK. Elimintae refueling.
But, If Rubens managed to pass HHF by say, lap 5, then then what about the rest of the 55 laps?
If all the action happens in just a few laps of the start, the rest of the race will be meaningless.
Refueling also gives us a break from the monotony of watching a car going round and round.
Let refueling stay. Bring back slicks

[Witt]

Chris, I think Refueling was banned in 1983 or 84, someone correct me if i'm wrong. It was mainly banned to limit the power Turbo's were generating in those days over race distances.

It was re-allowed in 1994, basically to install some excitement back into F1, especially after the 92-93 Williams whitewash years.

[Nathan]

First lets get those huge slicks back and make the wings smaller. As for re-fuelling Rubens wouldnt have passed HHF. If you have a car start will all that weight (for fuel) his tires and brakes would have been too worn to be able to do anything. Then you would have more tire pit stops. As you said pit stops are the only way to pass. If teams like McLaren and many others know they cant match Feraris pit tactics then why dont they, as you say, take more passing chances to make up for it????

[madmac]

Banning pit stops for anything other than changing flat tyres or repairs would mean the drivers have to do their 'talking' on the track, degrading tyres & fuel starting to run out would give us excitment at the end of the race aswell as in the first few laps, so it gets my thumbs up!

As for making overtaking possible IMHO work has to be done to reduce/remove the 'dirty air' coming of the rear wing of a leading car which as we all know trashes the chaser's front down force, this would allow outbreaking attempts, which I presume we all want to see.

Other measures (again IMHO) should include wider tracks with more than one optimal line for a few corners & perhaps a braking zone with higher grip than most the track.

[whiplash]

alfisti's main point is very pertinent - no matter what the cars are like, the drivers haven't got the inclination to pass because of refueling pit-stop strategy. even if the cars had slicks, and small wings, and this grip and that grip, many drivers/teams would still leaving the passing in the hands of refueling pit-stop strategy.

car/tyre/track changes aren't enough, refueling should go too. (but i enjoyed pit-stops just for tyres - it was all about sheer speed).

[rayt]

Was it Monaco 91 when Mansell changed all four tires in 3.5 secs? It was really exciting to see how quick they could do it