I post this thread, Mr. Honourable host Capps, with Great Fear and Trembling, because it is nothing to do with motor racing. I looked through the Paddock Club threads to see what was currently going on but ..... no.
So, Mr Host, heave the topic if it's too much ... ah ... off topic. I'm playing a hunch that TNFers don't confine their areas of interest to matters automotive.
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At the moment that Japan entered WW2, Royal Australian Air Force aircraft were displaying red white and blue roundels in common with their RAF colleagues. At some point, after the United States Armed Forces started operating in Northern Australia and the Japanese occupied territories north of Australia, the RAAF reverted to blue and white roundels.
I am given to understand (by a gent who flew RAAF Beaufighters out of New Guinea) that this largely came about because "The Yank gunners popped away at anything red!" (My exclamation mark.)
What I have been unable to discover is whether there was a particular incident that brought about the change to RAAF roundels. Was an Australian aircraft misidentified and shot at? Brought down even?
The gent above is my father in law and whilst he vaguely recalls the change, he would love to be reminded of why and exactly when the cans of blue paint came out.
Vanwall.
RAAF roundels
Started by
Gary Davies
, Aug 08 2001 10:47
19 replies to this topic
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#2
Bernd
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Posted 08 August 2001 - 12:46
One of my instructors in the RAAF was the son of a WW2 fighter jockey he mentioned that the old man used to talk about Yanks that used to shoot at just about anything, not just red! Apparently the Boomerang used to be mistaken for the Zero all the time.......... How is beyond me.
Another guy whom I met was ex SASR (Special Air Service Regiment) he had some amusing yet scary tales of training with the American Delta guys.
I'm sure Mr Capps has some friendly fire incidents he could recall from the Nam.
Sorry Vanwall but I am not certain as to the answer, it certainly sounds plausible to me
Another guy whom I met was ex SASR (Special Air Service Regiment) he had some amusing yet scary tales of training with the American Delta guys.
I'm sure Mr Capps has some friendly fire incidents he could recall from the Nam.
Sorry Vanwall but I am not certain as to the answer, it certainly sounds plausible to me
#3
Paul Medici
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Posted 08 August 2001 - 15:02
Vanwall
At first I thought your topic was about the use of roundels on British sports cars at Le Mans in the '50s (DBRs if I recall?)
I don't know if they ever appeared on a British Grand Prix car.
Actually the US Army did exactly the same thing. Before the war began US ships wore a white star with a red ball in it's center. I am sure that changed very quickly and for the same reasons you suggest.
PJM
At first I thought your topic was about the use of roundels on British sports cars at Le Mans in the '50s (DBRs if I recall?)
I don't know if they ever appeared on a British Grand Prix car.
Actually the US Army did exactly the same thing. Before the war began US ships wore a white star with a red ball in it's center. I am sure that changed very quickly and for the same reasons you suggest.
PJM
#4
Rob29
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Posted 08 August 2001 - 17:00
Didn't a kangaroo replace the red centre of the RAAF roundel? A kiwi for NZ.Maple leaf for Canada,Sprinkbok for South Africa & 3 spears for Rhodesia.
#5
Don Capps
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Posted 08 August 2001 - 18:01
Ah, roundels....
Not to cast aspersions unto my comades-in-arms the duckhunters, but they rarely seem to have a need for aircraft identification classes since they tend to display a strong tendency shoot at anything that flies; they demonstrated this especially often during WW2.
The US changed its a/c insignia from the white star w/red dot on blue circle to a white star on a blue circle to adding bars to the sides of the star & circle in 1943 (which were outlined in red and then blue). In 1948, the USAF added a red stripe to the bars.
In WW1, the US used the Russian roundel so as to be consistent with the Allies. In WW2, roundels and stars were choices the Allies got to choose from.
The debacle off Sicily in the Summer of 1943 is just one of the hazards that airmen put up with: the naval vessels opened up on the night drop and did more damage than the Germans could have ever imagined doing. Ditto in the Pacific area as well, where many of the British a/c ended up sporting US stars when working with the US forces, especially the carrier groups.
The inclusion of native symbols to the roundels was mostly a post-war innovation, but not unknown prior to the war.
So, there was not any single incident that led to the changes to the roundels and stars, but a healthy paranoia on the part of the aviation communities.
However, I must give some credit where it is due: in Viet-Nam I never saw an enemy aircraft down South buzzing around making our lives miserable. However, that still didn't prevent me from getting shot down....
A good friend of mine was one of the pilots that actually qualified as a Cobra fighter jock. Really! The Army had this great notion that in The Next War that helos would be duking it out over the batle field and decided to see what it took. Naturally, most of us were appalled at the notion while secretly figuring how cool it would be to be an Ace. Being a senior IP (Instructor Pilot), a true Master Aviator, and slightly nuts, Craig working on the project and figured out how to fight other helos using Stingers and guns. Fortunately, it was also apparent that even using Apaches that this was a wacko idea. However, Craig mastered the art of aerial combat using a helo, and in a Cobra no less. I used to watch the tapes and groan when I saw what was going on: how to avoid pulling zero gees and still put yourself into the other guy's "six" to clean his clock required a much better pair of hands than I had, especially in a Cobra. It was "easier" in an Apache, but still a wacko idea. My few attempts at this made me realize that I was really too old for that sort of thing -- or perhaps finally mature enough to understand that old and bold were usually mutually exclusive terms.... However, Craig and I later did a number of dogfights in the simulators -- where he consistently cleaned my clock. Okay, it was fixed wing then, but he was still far better than I could ever dream of being. Even when I cheated he still did okay...
Not to cast aspersions unto my comades-in-arms the duckhunters, but they rarely seem to have a need for aircraft identification classes since they tend to display a strong tendency shoot at anything that flies; they demonstrated this especially often during WW2.
The US changed its a/c insignia from the white star w/red dot on blue circle to a white star on a blue circle to adding bars to the sides of the star & circle in 1943 (which were outlined in red and then blue). In 1948, the USAF added a red stripe to the bars.
In WW1, the US used the Russian roundel so as to be consistent with the Allies. In WW2, roundels and stars were choices the Allies got to choose from.
The debacle off Sicily in the Summer of 1943 is just one of the hazards that airmen put up with: the naval vessels opened up on the night drop and did more damage than the Germans could have ever imagined doing. Ditto in the Pacific area as well, where many of the British a/c ended up sporting US stars when working with the US forces, especially the carrier groups.
The inclusion of native symbols to the roundels was mostly a post-war innovation, but not unknown prior to the war.
So, there was not any single incident that led to the changes to the roundels and stars, but a healthy paranoia on the part of the aviation communities.
However, I must give some credit where it is due: in Viet-Nam I never saw an enemy aircraft down South buzzing around making our lives miserable. However, that still didn't prevent me from getting shot down....
A good friend of mine was one of the pilots that actually qualified as a Cobra fighter jock. Really! The Army had this great notion that in The Next War that helos would be duking it out over the batle field and decided to see what it took. Naturally, most of us were appalled at the notion while secretly figuring how cool it would be to be an Ace. Being a senior IP (Instructor Pilot), a true Master Aviator, and slightly nuts, Craig working on the project and figured out how to fight other helos using Stingers and guns. Fortunately, it was also apparent that even using Apaches that this was a wacko idea. However, Craig mastered the art of aerial combat using a helo, and in a Cobra no less. I used to watch the tapes and groan when I saw what was going on: how to avoid pulling zero gees and still put yourself into the other guy's "six" to clean his clock required a much better pair of hands than I had, especially in a Cobra. It was "easier" in an Apache, but still a wacko idea. My few attempts at this made me realize that I was really too old for that sort of thing -- or perhaps finally mature enough to understand that old and bold were usually mutually exclusive terms.... However, Craig and I later did a number of dogfights in the simulators -- where he consistently cleaned my clock. Okay, it was fixed wing then, but he was still far better than I could ever dream of being. Even when I cheated he still did okay...
#6
Timekeeper
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Posted 09 August 2001 - 04:50
Vanwall,
One of the best things about TNF is the off topic posts. This is certainly not the first about aircraft and Don's post about movies was fantastic.
The exact date that the RAAF changed to blue and white roundels in the Pacific theatre is the subject of many arguments. The deletion of the red area was certainly due to confusion with Japanese aircraft and as Don and Paul mentioned a similar thing happened with US insignia. Officially I believe that orders that the change be made on Australian aircraft were issued in July 1942 but it seems likely that this was being done in the field on an ad hoc basis much earlier, possibly March or April 1942. This was probably only on the roundels on the underside of the wings to begin with, for identification from allied AA batteries. There is a famous incident in March 1942 when 75 squadron were taking their P40 Kittyhawks to New Guinea and they were blasted by our own troops as they came in to land at their new airstrip (so we can't blame everything on the Yanks). I think one plane was shot down but the squadron was still ready for ops later that day. On old neighbour of mine (long since departed) was on a AA battery during the war and he told me they were always confused by Beaufighters and opened up on them on a number of times.
US forces began to delete the red dot around the same time just retaining a blue disc with a white star. Many of the US aircraft operating at Midway in June 1942 did not have the red dot. I know that the Marine Corp squadron VMF-221 flying from Pearl Harbour removed the red dots from their Brewster Buffalos on 15 May 1992.
The kangaroo roundel didn't really appear till the mid 50s. Aussie aircraft operated in Korea using the old British red white and blue roundel. I believe the South Africans did use the roundel with a Springbok in it during Korea.
One of the best things about TNF is the off topic posts. This is certainly not the first about aircraft and Don's post about movies was fantastic.
The exact date that the RAAF changed to blue and white roundels in the Pacific theatre is the subject of many arguments. The deletion of the red area was certainly due to confusion with Japanese aircraft and as Don and Paul mentioned a similar thing happened with US insignia. Officially I believe that orders that the change be made on Australian aircraft were issued in July 1942 but it seems likely that this was being done in the field on an ad hoc basis much earlier, possibly March or April 1942. This was probably only on the roundels on the underside of the wings to begin with, for identification from allied AA batteries. There is a famous incident in March 1942 when 75 squadron were taking their P40 Kittyhawks to New Guinea and they were blasted by our own troops as they came in to land at their new airstrip (so we can't blame everything on the Yanks). I think one plane was shot down but the squadron was still ready for ops later that day. On old neighbour of mine (long since departed) was on a AA battery during the war and he told me they were always confused by Beaufighters and opened up on them on a number of times.
US forces began to delete the red dot around the same time just retaining a blue disc with a white star. Many of the US aircraft operating at Midway in June 1942 did not have the red dot. I know that the Marine Corp squadron VMF-221 flying from Pearl Harbour removed the red dots from their Brewster Buffalos on 15 May 1992.
The kangaroo roundel didn't really appear till the mid 50s. Aussie aircraft operated in Korea using the old British red white and blue roundel. I believe the South Africans did use the roundel with a Springbok in it during Korea.
#7
Timekeeper
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Posted 09 August 2001 - 04:51
Just splitting the story to make it easier to read.
On the subject of friendly fire during WW2, one of the most famous cases was the US pilot Edward 'Butch' O'Hare. O'Hare shot down 5 Japanese planes in one encounter defending his carrier in early 1942 and was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honour. After doing lots of War Bond tours he returned to duty and was tragically shot down and killed in a strange incident in 1943 when it seems likely he was mistaken by a US Navy Avenger torpedo bomber for a Japanese aircraft. Chicago's O'Hare airport is named in his honour.
Butch's dad was the well known Chicago gangster Eddie O'Hare and associate of Al Capone. He and Capone controlled dog racing in Chicago but they were eventually shut down by authorities when they realised the races were rigged. They just reopened the site as a horse racing track. Eddie was the manager of the track and made millions. However, he was a pretty devoted family man and saw the error of his ways. He ended up giving evidence against Capone but was gunned down for his trouble. The track in Chicago he ran was the Sportsmen’s Club which I now believe is also the site of the Chicago Motor Speedway and holds a CART race. You knew there had to be a motor racing connection.
When the police found Eddie O’Hare’s body the retrieved a piece of paper which had the following poem.
The clock of life is wound but once
And no man has the power
To tell just when the hands will stop
At late or early hour.
Now is the only time you own.
Live, love, toil with a will.
Place no faith in time.
For the clock may soon be still.
On the subject of friendly fire during WW2, one of the most famous cases was the US pilot Edward 'Butch' O'Hare. O'Hare shot down 5 Japanese planes in one encounter defending his carrier in early 1942 and was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honour. After doing lots of War Bond tours he returned to duty and was tragically shot down and killed in a strange incident in 1943 when it seems likely he was mistaken by a US Navy Avenger torpedo bomber for a Japanese aircraft. Chicago's O'Hare airport is named in his honour.
Butch's dad was the well known Chicago gangster Eddie O'Hare and associate of Al Capone. He and Capone controlled dog racing in Chicago but they were eventually shut down by authorities when they realised the races were rigged. They just reopened the site as a horse racing track. Eddie was the manager of the track and made millions. However, he was a pretty devoted family man and saw the error of his ways. He ended up giving evidence against Capone but was gunned down for his trouble. The track in Chicago he ran was the Sportsmen’s Club which I now believe is also the site of the Chicago Motor Speedway and holds a CART race. You knew there had to be a motor racing connection.
When the police found Eddie O’Hare’s body the retrieved a piece of paper which had the following poem.
The clock of life is wound but once
And no man has the power
To tell just when the hands will stop
At late or early hour.
Now is the only time you own.
Live, love, toil with a will.
Place no faith in time.
For the clock may soon be still.
#8
dbw
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Posted 09 August 2001 - 06:26
funny..several of my high school buddies went off[drafted] and became chopper pilots....strangely enough they were to a man[boy] incorrigible in school and spent a lot of time in detention....they all made it back and as i recall they had a total of 10 aircraft shot out from under them...my best friend actually joined and flew phantoms off carriers....he went on to multi engine stuff....god, he must be well into retirement by now..perhaps someday i'll see him again....me? my birthday was # 2 on the lottery list....by the time the list hit the papers,#'s 1 thru 6 had their appointments at the local induction center...just lucky i guess....
#9
Marco94
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Posted 09 August 2001 - 10:09
I think this whole issue of wrong identification lead to the introduction of the three white stripe near the tails of Allied aircraft used at (and after?) D-Day.
#10
Don Capps
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Posted 09 August 2001 - 13:11
dbw, My Lottery Number was 298: of which I was informed just before I rotated out of Viet-Nam -- and I had the lowest Lottery Number of the Americans on my team!
Please note: it is the "Medal of Honor;" the "Congressional" part not being correct, but merely failure by most to realize that although it is presented in the name of the Congress, that is about as far as it goes.
The reason there is not a concensus on when the roundel changed is that it was not an overnight sort of thing, there often being a variety of roundels within the same squadron. Rarely does this sort of thing happen very quickly. However, the "invasion stripes" that Marco mentions is one of the few exceptions. Virtually every aircraft in the 9th Air Force and the supporting RAF wings was painted within a 24-36 hour period to include about any aircraft that might be in the area. It was an extraordinary performance by the maintenance crews.
The red dot was removed from US aircraft in the May 1942, timeframe; being a relatively simple procedure, it was generally accomplished by the beginning of June. It was done in the Pacific ASAP for obvious reasons. However, a few aircraft were flying as late as July with the red dot still in place.
Speaking of wayward youth, one of the best pilots I worked with celebrated his 20th birthday about a month before he had a tail rotor chain break just as he was making his turn into an approach into the Tan An pads. By some miracle, no one was killed when it hit a paddy dike and rolled itself into a large ball of aluminum foil. We were a few klicks away in a Loach (OH-6A) and saw the splash. Amazing enough, Harley survived despite really looking pretty bad at the time. This was the fifth or sixth Slick he put in the recycling bin. He actually did two more tours, the next one in Guns (AH-1G Cobras). We were at Fort Hood together right before he returned for his second tour. I thought he wasn't wrapped too tightly, personally....but, consider the source.
Please note: it is the "Medal of Honor;" the "Congressional" part not being correct, but merely failure by most to realize that although it is presented in the name of the Congress, that is about as far as it goes.
The reason there is not a concensus on when the roundel changed is that it was not an overnight sort of thing, there often being a variety of roundels within the same squadron. Rarely does this sort of thing happen very quickly. However, the "invasion stripes" that Marco mentions is one of the few exceptions. Virtually every aircraft in the 9th Air Force and the supporting RAF wings was painted within a 24-36 hour period to include about any aircraft that might be in the area. It was an extraordinary performance by the maintenance crews.
The red dot was removed from US aircraft in the May 1942, timeframe; being a relatively simple procedure, it was generally accomplished by the beginning of June. It was done in the Pacific ASAP for obvious reasons. However, a few aircraft were flying as late as July with the red dot still in place.
Speaking of wayward youth, one of the best pilots I worked with celebrated his 20th birthday about a month before he had a tail rotor chain break just as he was making his turn into an approach into the Tan An pads. By some miracle, no one was killed when it hit a paddy dike and rolled itself into a large ball of aluminum foil. We were a few klicks away in a Loach (OH-6A) and saw the splash. Amazing enough, Harley survived despite really looking pretty bad at the time. This was the fifth or sixth Slick he put in the recycling bin. He actually did two more tours, the next one in Guns (AH-1G Cobras). We were at Fort Hood together right before he returned for his second tour. I thought he wasn't wrapped too tightly, personally....but, consider the source.
#11
Paul Medici
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Posted 09 August 2001 - 13:46
I'm sure "invasion stripes" served their purpose.
However I have often wondered if those large black and white stripes, which were painted over the light blues and greys on the wings of Allied ships, also made them more visible to the opposition. Considering the alternative, it was probably the only way to go.
PJM
However I have often wondered if those large black and white stripes, which were painted over the light blues and greys on the wings of Allied ships, also made them more visible to the opposition. Considering the alternative, it was probably the only way to go.
PJM
#12
Vitesse2
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Posted 09 August 2001 - 14:42
Originally posted by Paul Medici
I'm sure "invasion stripes" served their purpose.
However I have often wondered if those large black and white stripes, which were painted over the light blues and greys on the wings of Allied ships, also made them more visible to the opposition. Considering the alternative, it was probably the only way to go.
PJM
There wasn't really much "opposition" left by then Paul. The Luftwaffe hardly flew a sortie on D-Day and most of what remained of it after the Allied ground attack aircraft went in was quickly withdrawn for the defence of the Reich. And the U-Boat threat had been negated by Ultra - probably the biggest threat to the invasion fleet would have been the E-Boats based in the Channel Islands, but they didn't have much fuel ...
#13
David J Jones
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Posted 09 August 2001 - 15:02
I could not resist this one any longer since militiary aircraft,millitaria, history and the political situation 1900 - 1990 are area of interest for me after motor racing and motor cycling.
I knew somewhere I had a book that gave the reason for the roundel change - and I found it!
The Harleyford Publications 'Aircraft Camouflage and Markings 1907-1954' states
Up to the fall of Malaya and Singapore the roundels used were as for the ETO.
From 1942 onwards the most striking change that occurred was in the national markings. Follolwing the example of the Americans obliterating the red centre from their insignia, all RAF operational aircraft, stationed east of 60 degrees E were instructed to use the new South East Asia Command roundel.
Basically it was a Type B roundel with a dark blue outer and an azure inner disk. Similarly the fin flashes were changed to those two colours only with the lighter blue leading.
There has been a misconception that the colours were white and blue like the RAF roundel. This was not so
The same publication mentions the invasion stripes applied to the the A.E.A.F. aircraft from 4th June 1944 onwards. It would seem that it was applied over the lower wing surfaces and around the rear fuselage. In the same way that vehicles had the white stars for id so the aircraft of the A.E.A.F. carried the distinctive markings but once they were based in France the markings to the undersides were painted out on most aircraft in order not to compromise camouflage.
I have also found reference that Hawker Typhoon and Tempests carried a similar marking on wing undersurfaces in order not to be confused with Focke-Wulf 190's
I never expected to turn up anything like this on this forum ! Interesting though isn't it?
.
I knew somewhere I had a book that gave the reason for the roundel change - and I found it!
The Harleyford Publications 'Aircraft Camouflage and Markings 1907-1954' states
Up to the fall of Malaya and Singapore the roundels used were as for the ETO.
From 1942 onwards the most striking change that occurred was in the national markings. Follolwing the example of the Americans obliterating the red centre from their insignia, all RAF operational aircraft, stationed east of 60 degrees E were instructed to use the new South East Asia Command roundel.
Basically it was a Type B roundel with a dark blue outer and an azure inner disk. Similarly the fin flashes were changed to those two colours only with the lighter blue leading.
There has been a misconception that the colours were white and blue like the RAF roundel. This was not so
The same publication mentions the invasion stripes applied to the the A.E.A.F. aircraft from 4th June 1944 onwards. It would seem that it was applied over the lower wing surfaces and around the rear fuselage. In the same way that vehicles had the white stars for id so the aircraft of the A.E.A.F. carried the distinctive markings but once they were based in France the markings to the undersides were painted out on most aircraft in order not to compromise camouflage.
I have also found reference that Hawker Typhoon and Tempests carried a similar marking on wing undersurfaces in order not to be confused with Focke-Wulf 190's
I never expected to turn up anything like this on this forum ! Interesting though isn't it?
.
#14
Rainer Nyberg
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Posted 09 August 2001 - 23:14
You are right David, as can be seen on this drawing, showing a
Bristol Beaufighter Mk. X
30 Squadron, Royal Australian Air Force
Tadje Strip, New Guinea
August 1944
The Australian roundels is not the same as the RAF shade, but somewhat lighter.
Bristol Beaufighter Mk. X
30 Squadron, Royal Australian Air Force
Tadje Strip, New Guinea
August 1944
The Australian roundels is not the same as the RAF shade, but somewhat lighter.
#15
Gary Davies
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Posted 10 August 2001 - 00:19
Thanks all and in particular thanks to David and Rainer. I'm now off in pursuit of Harleyford Publications 'Aircraft Camouflage and Markings 1907-1954'.
The old man's coming to lunch on Sunday and he's looking forward to seeing the whole thread!
Rainer, incidentally, it was interesting that the Beaufighter you showed was from 30 Sqn RAAF. That was father-in-law's outfit, although during his time in the islands, 42-43, they were operating old Mk1's which were ex-RAF night fighters, shipped to Oz "completely black and nearly as tired." But that's another story.
And Bernd: "Apparently the Boomerang used to be mistaken for the Zero all the time ..." Spoke to the old man and ... "Both radial engined, similar size, both with the wing set very far forward, both with a straight trailing edge to the wing viewed in profile and slightly swept back leading edge." sayeth he.
Vanwall
The old man's coming to lunch on Sunday and he's looking forward to seeing the whole thread!
Rainer, incidentally, it was interesting that the Beaufighter you showed was from 30 Sqn RAAF. That was father-in-law's outfit, although during his time in the islands, 42-43, they were operating old Mk1's which were ex-RAF night fighters, shipped to Oz "completely black and nearly as tired." But that's another story.
And Bernd: "Apparently the Boomerang used to be mistaken for the Zero all the time ..." Spoke to the old man and ... "Both radial engined, similar size, both with the wing set very far forward, both with a straight trailing edge to the wing viewed in profile and slightly swept back leading edge." sayeth he.
Vanwall
#16
Timekeeper
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Posted 10 August 2001 - 02:14
Vanwall,
I think the last intact Beaufighter in Australia (A8-328) is at Moorabbin Air Museum at Moorabbin Airport in southern Melbourne. It is painted dark green overall. Before it was restored it was being used in a kids playground. It is now the pride and joy of the whole museum.
I think the last intact Beaufighter in Australia (A8-328) is at Moorabbin Air Museum at Moorabbin Airport in southern Melbourne. It is painted dark green overall. Before it was restored it was being used in a kids playground. It is now the pride and joy of the whole museum.
#17
Paul Medici
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Posted 10 August 2001 - 02:17
Vanwall
I found a few color images of a RAAF Wirraway (Bougainville, '44)
in an old copy of Profile Publications, done by James Goulding.
Unable to post them to TNF. If you like I can e-mail them to you
but need your address.
PJM
I found a few color images of a RAAF Wirraway (Bougainville, '44)
in an old copy of Profile Publications, done by James Goulding.
Unable to post them to TNF. If you like I can e-mail them to you
but need your address.
PJM
#18
Don Capps
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Posted 10 August 2001 - 17:06
Somewhere I have 'Aircraft Camouflage and Markings 1907-1954' plus more of the Harleyford Publications such as the ones on the Spitfire, FW 190, Aircraft of the Great War, and maybe one or two others. I don't get to use them much since I am in one place they are in another. I admit being not as conversant on non-US color schemes and markings as I should be. Several years ago I made the decision to restrict most of my work to US aircraft and their designations and so forth. It was simply a matter of there being only just so much time available. I tried to keep up with Soviet/Russian, German, Italian, French, and British aircraft primarily, usually the military types. However, I am/was also interested in commercial aircraft of all sorts, logging the C/N's and registrations of all the various aircraft I flew in for many years. Outside the Concorde and the A340, I have managed at least one ride in most of what flies about the USA. I was amused when Boeing recycled the 717 designation for what was basically the MD95 series. I think the 757 is still one of the most attractive planes out there. One of the great fun experiences of my life was being able to spend a week with American Airlines "playing" on their flight simulators at DFW. And I even got paid to do it! I "flew" everything in the fleet and loved it. One of the few perks of being in the simulation business... I was actually there working on a DARPA program gathering some data for a study on simulation use and one thing led to another, as they say. I "flew" an approach into DCA with an MD80 series (I think it was an MD82, perhaps an MD88) and decided that I would use IAD whenever possible...and the approach at night was even more fun! I decided that those guys earned every dime they got, and double for anyone flying into National. It was not fun, espcially the way you end up sticking to what is essentially a combination noise abatement route and "hit the Potomac, not the Washington Monument..." route. I never cease how they actually put 757s onto that runway, since I thought it was basically just an oversized carrier deck from where I sat...
Now, what were we supposed to be discussing...?
Now, what were we supposed to be discussing...?
#19
Eric McLoughlin
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Posted 11 August 2001 - 08:46
Is it time to open up an "Aviation Forum" on Atlas? I'd certainly be a vistor.
Getting back to the subject of Invasion Stripes, I'm sure the idea was used before the D Day landings. Were they not tried out at some of the North African and Italian beach landings. The Blandford Press book "Fighters 1939-1945" shows a picture of a Typhoon with underwing stripes only from early 1944.
Getting back to the subject of Invasion Stripes, I'm sure the idea was used before the D Day landings. Were they not tried out at some of the North African and Italian beach landings. The Blandford Press book "Fighters 1939-1945" shows a picture of a Typhoon with underwing stripes only from early 1944.
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#20
David J Jones
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Posted 11 August 2001 - 09:10
Eric
In an earlier post I did mention the Typhoon and Tempests carrying underwing stripes as reproduced below.
'I have also found reference that Hawker Typhoon and Tempests carried a similar marking on wing undersurfaces in order not to be confused with Focke-Wulf 190's'
This would have been in the period from 1942 through 1944
In an earlier post I did mention the Typhoon and Tempests carrying underwing stripes as reproduced below.
'I have also found reference that Hawker Typhoon and Tempests carried a similar marking on wing undersurfaces in order not to be confused with Focke-Wulf 190's'
This would have been in the period from 1942 through 1944
