58 replies to this topic

[pinchevs]

The next project I would like to push is to recreate the Pedralbes circuit for the GPL computer simulation. There is work done to recreate the cars of 1954 / 1955 for GPL (such as the W196, D50, 250F etc). This gave me the idea of recreating the GP tracks of that time as well.

I've driven around this circuit on my recent trip to Barcelona thanks to the help from Mr. Jarama of TNF and I have taken pictures of it. I have also read as much as I could find about the 1951 and 1954 races on this track.

I've found many pictures of the majestic front straight, but I found very little pictures of any other part of the circuit as it was during the 50's. I would appreciate any help and especially:

1. A topographical map of this area of Barcelona, showing the elevation changes. Perhaps someone can tell me how I can contact the municipality of barcelona for such a map or perhaps the Catalan Drivers Association, who's headquarters are located right at the side of this former track, could help me with this.

2. A map of the circuit showing the radius of each corner.

3. Pictures of the surroundings, especially of the other parts of the track.

4. Recommended books with good information / pictures about the Pedralbes track and where I can purchase them. Perhaps there are such books about the Penya Rhin races. I've tried to contact the book store in Barcelona, but haven't gotten back any answer. Is it still in business?

My e-mail is: pinchevskymoshe@bezeqint.net
or if you can't scan, please mail me the pictures and I'll send you back your expenses. I promise to pay back any expenses

This is all just to gather the information that will enable the creation of the track. It's a VERY long process, so I want to start as soon as possible

[Barry Boor]

There are some regulars on TNF who have been or maybe even ARE real racing drivers, at whatever level.

However, most of us can only dream; or at least, that's what we used to do. Now, through the wonders of modern technology, simulator games can put us right in the driving seat.

Many of you will scoff and issue forth statements along the lines of "Oh, for heaven's sake, GROW UP." I bet any of you who say things like that have never tried to drive an Eagle Weslake around the Nurburgring! My advice is, try it, and then scoff, if you still want to.

My point here is, the Legends sim is a wonderful product, but the basic game's 11 circuits can now be supplemented by many others. As a Londoner myself, I have gloried at being able, at last, to drive around the Crystal Palace track I watched so many races at years ago.

If Pinchevs is able to create a Pedralbes track for Legends fans to try, then surely it would not be asking too much for us to rack our brains and delve into our libraries to find as many photos/info as we can about the track; please!!!

Just think, in a few month's time, you too could be driving a W.196 or a D.50 through the Barecelona streets.

[pinchevs]

Barry,
Thank you for your support. GPL is indeed a magnificent tool to relive the GP's as they were ment to be.

The GPL program is so complex in simulating rea life that in order to recreate the track properly, I need to know every small detail about it such as Camber, Elevation, width, length of each part of the circuit and of course the Radius of each corner.
On top of this you have the surrondings, which I want to recreate as they were in the 50's or at least in the 60's. For this I need to see as many pictures of the track as possible.

I've tried to find a book about the Penya Rhin races, but all the British stores are out of it and I am unable to reach the book store in Barcelona. I hope it's still in bussiness.

I'd also like to thank Juan and the other guy who replied to my home e-mail address (I'm sorry I forgot your name - I'm writing from work).

Moshe Pinchevsky

[Barry Lake]

Moshe

I think you will find the bookshop in Barcelona still has the Penya Rhin book.

I had the same problem trying to get anything from him via e-mail. I think he doesn't like posting books to other countries. Perhaps he is simply too busy.

When I went into the shop itself in Barcelone, he knew who I was from my e-mails and couldn't have been more helpful.

But he promised to keep me informed of any new publications and also of a couple of books due to be reprinted and I have heard nothing from him.

Perhaps Felix Muelas can help. I think he buys books from that shop.

[pinchevs]

Barry Lake,
Thanks for your advice. I've actually been contacted by Manuel Zamora of Madrid (AKA Santi), who offered to buy for me a book called: "Los Grandes Premios Internacionales de la Penya Rhin". Does anyone know if this is a good book about Pedralbes (I already have the book about Montjuich so I don't need much more about that track). Does this book have maps and photos of Pedralbes?

The guy who works in the Barcelona book store didn't have too much of a problem in sending me the huge Montjuich book and answering my e-mails at that time. I guess he is just too busy now days.

[Santi]

Hey mate, I can try to take a look to the book, and tell you about it before to order the deal.
I don't mind to buy myself the book and send it to you, but firstly I'm going to try that the store do this job.
Anyway, I need to know your hometown.

[pinchevs]

Manuel,
It would be great if you could check out the book. You can see from my original post, what I'm lookin for.
However, I insist that I pay for the book!

MP

[Santi]

Ok, Moshe:

Don't worry, you'll pay.

IN ONE HOUR I'm going to check out the book, and to ask for the expenses, but... SAY ME WHERE DO YOU LIVE, not the full address, only your town, or even your country.
If they CAN'T send the book to your country, THEN, I'll buy it for you and I'll send it to you.

I'll type about it tomorrow.

Say me where do you live or I'm going to kill you.

[pinchevs]

Manuel,
Have you received my e-mail?

I've also received some very interesting links from Pekarting (?), but I haven't been able to check them yet (I'm at work).

I'm also waiting for some interesting stuff form Barry B's Spanish friend Juan.

I'll keep posting here about all the information I have gathered.

BTW, I already have a few questions in regard to the surroundings. I have an amazing book called Ferrari in camera. It has a few COLOR photos from the 54 race. My questions are:

1. I have a picture showing Mike H. passing a big Barn to his left in what looks like a fast and open left hand corner. Would this be Av.d'Esplugues where now there are only private small houses?

2. I've seen many pictures of the paddock (as opposed to the pits, which were on the mail straight). Was it positioned at Carrer Numância? and was this avenue, which now days is split into two roads with trees in the middle, split like that in the 50's? I've also seen a long white wall in the paddock, was this at the middle of Carrer Numância?

3. Now days there is a round square at the corner of Paseig Manuel Girona and Carrer Numância with an underpass under it. Was it there in the 50's? If not, was it just a regular looking corner between the two streets?

4. How many of the tall buildings along Paseig Manuel Girona were there in the 50's / 60's? Was the special looking Church there?

5. Many of the buildings along Av.de Pedralbes now days, look very recent. What was there during the 50's / 60's?

6. At the outside of the corner of Av.de Pedralbes and Paseig Manuel Girona, there is a VERY special building with a large color dragon. Was it there in the 50's / 60's?

[Santi]

Moshe,
I've not received your e-mail, have you the mine one?

I wonder if somebody from Barcelona is reading this thread, he could help you a lot!

[Felix Muelas]

Gentlemen,

To start off with, let me welcome some of my compatriotes to TNF. A real pleasure.

Secondly, the Pablo Gimeno book has been quoted several times in the past few months here. Please use the "Search BB" facility (upper right corner), type "Gimeno", select The Nostalgia Forum and you'll have 5 threads where you can find our comments about the book.

Un abrazo

Felix

[pinchevs]

Felix,
You've convinced me. I WANT IT!!!

Manuel,
Have you gotten my e-mail yet? I want the book and I want it bad ;) Just tell me how you want to do it.

[Santi]

Ok, Moshe, I assume you've already received my e-mail, yours one I haven't.
Please, write me again, or type it here.
I suppose your addres was, at last, at that lost e-mail.
Well, I'm phoning to the store to reserve the book.
If you're there type me just now, because I'm leaving my workplace in 20 minutes, and I'm not connected at home.

[Santi]

Well, it's already reserved.

How we do? Well. If you live in the CEE, they can send you cash on delivery, if you live out of the CEE you'll must pay them by VISA, you know, card number and lapse date.

[Barry Lake]

Since we have the attention of some Spanish Nostalgia buffs here, can I ask a favour?

Could someone please tell me when the following books become available?

You might also tell me the correct titles and authors.

Sitges Track History
Catalunyan Motor Racing History
Circuito de Lasarte 1923-1935

I believe some or all of them have been out of print but are due to be reprinted.

One problem is that the cost of postgae to Australia is almost as expensive as the original cost of the book. Is anyone an expert on parcel post rates from Spain? I don't need them in a hurry, surface mail parcel post would be fine.

When you're dealing with 50-80-year history, another three or four months wait is neither here nor there.

[pinchevs]

Manuel,
How can I contact the book store? I'd use my Visa credit card.

Thanks for all the effort

MP

[Santi]

Moshe,
I've already sent you an e-mail with the "how to".

Let me know how finish the deal.

[pinchevs]

Manuel,
I've faxed my order of the book to Mr. Pablo de Villanueva, as par your e-mail.

Thank you very much!

I've also just recieved a book from 68 about the racing circuits, with some additional pictures of Pedralbes. However, these are still far from enough

I've looked into the link you've sent me and it has what is called a topographical map, which however does not show the elevation changes. I wonder if I'm doing something wrong (the instructions are in Spanish).

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by pinchevs
...what is called a topographical map, which however does not show the elevation changes...

If this is what you´re looking for, you´ll find it on the Gimeno book

Felix

[pinchevs]

Yep, that's what I'm looking for. Manuel said something about this either here or in one of his e-mails to me. Anything is better than nothing.

Felix,
Do you think that the Royal Catalunian Club would have good quality maps of the long circuit? Do you know who there I should contact? Perhaps somebody in the Municipality?

[Felix Muelas]

Pinchevs

Eveything you say makes a lot of sense.
Nonwithstanding that fact, I think if someone is to be contacted I will suggest the names of either Pablo Gimeno (that will know where exactly he saw and got the authorisation to reproduce the topographic maps, maybe at the RACC, maybe not) and/or Javier del Arco who will probably know too. My experience trying to obtain info about the Penya Rhin races from the RACC directly (a couple of years ago) were pretty frustrating, to be honest, and I ended up submitting the info that I had collected myself over the years in exchange for...nothing. After insisting a couple of times, I was told that the person I had addressed the info had died, so to expect no reply

Things might have changed, but my own experience tells me that the best access to official records is always obtained if you previously know an insider. Both these two people will fit the bill in this case, in my opinion.

Felix

[pinchevs]

Felix,
Soon I'll have books by both these men (I have the amazing book on Montjuich), but HOW DO I CONTACT THEM DIRECTLY?
If you know please send it privately to one of my e-mail addresses:
pinchevs@internet-zahav.net
pinchevskymoshe@bezeqint.net

THANK YOU!!!
Moshe Pinchevsky

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by Felix Muelas
.....my own experience tells me that the best access to official records is always obtained if you previously know an insider.....

Felix,
Did the information I had sent you help in any way to contact the people who published Circuito de Lasarte? Or did you get hold of the book already in the past?

[Santi]

Hey, Moshe,

I've found an e-mail address, which maybe belongs to Javier del Arco.
I've sent a mail asking for it, and explaining what you're looking for.
I'll let you know any ascertainment.

[pinchevs]

Wow! Thanks Manuel!
I guess that it makes sense that you would be able to better explain what I need to Mr. del Arco in Spanish. His book on Montjuich has been a great help to recreating the Montjuich track for GPL.

[Felix Muelas]

[500th post mode]

Moshe :
It looks to me that you're very well being taken care of by Santi/Manuel, so I will not get involved in this unless specifically requested to.

Hans :
The lazyman in me has done nothing yet about the book. Now that I think about it, it's a pretty unacceptable behaviour only justified (is it?) because of the summer season usually means in Spain that people not only "do not work" but even they "do not go to work". They call it holidays
I'll promise I'll follow the obvious instructions that can be deducted by your scans as soon as the first drop of rain reaches us here in the South.

Aloha,

[/500th post mode]

Felix

[Santi]

Come on, Felix, aren't you wondering how may feel exiting to going down that old Diagonal?
I can't wait.

Bye, mate.

[pinchevs]

Felix,
Thank you for your efforts. I'm glad that I'll be able to get help from you if and when needed. I was just wondering what happened to Jarama of TNF, who helped me so much before? Is he this guy called Joan Pinol who sent me some stuff?

Manuel,
I can already imagine the feeling of exiting the last corner onto the HUGE 1.8 mile avenue. The last corner is much tighter than Parabolica at Monza (I would guess second gear), but the feeling is going to be similar only that you're going to see the straight rise in front of you towards the distance.

I would also like to emphesize two things:
1. I will probably only help with building this track as I am currently helping building the road course of Watkins Glen 1948-1952. I hope that Mr. Arthur Slabbaert will work his magic on Pedralbes too.

2. Pedralbes will in any event not be built until Watkins Glen is finished and believe me it's a huge amount of work. You'll have to contend with Montjuich. Here's the link: http://www.btinterne...born/montjuich/

I recommend that you check out the screenshots. I just can't wait!!!

A temporary site for Watkins has been prepared by a third friend Oren Barnea (AKA Pine). It's at: http://members.iol.c...gpli/wg1948.htm

This page is very basic right now, but will be updated soon. The work on the actuall track is more important...

[Santi]

Amazing, guy!!

I had already seen the shots of Montjuich, but I didn't know it was your work.

The changes of level are specially well done.
Absolutly incredible, congratulations.

[pinchevs]

Manuel, Montjuich is NOT my work!
I only helped with information, maps and pictures (but sadly was forgoten when they wrote the credits )

What I ment was that you should enjoy Montjuich while we finish Watkins Glen and then we will start working on Pedralbes. I started this information gathering so early because I know how much time it takes.

On a different matter, I contacted Pablo from the book store and he told me that there was a problem with my Visa card. I hope I cleared it up with him. It's acctually a funny thing. On my Visa card it says that it is good thru a certain month, but for the order I needed to give an expiry date. So I figured it would be the first day of the next month. WRONG. I hope this will work now.

[osborn]

Hello.

I have just come across this thread and we appear to have missed somebody out of our credits We are very sorry for this, but sometimes the contact goes on between somebody else (say Greger) and me being the webmaster never hears anything about it. Apologies for this, we will gladly add you to the credits page. If you would just please send a reply with your name and how you helped with the project I will add you ASAP. Thanks and sorry again

[pinchevs]

Mr. Rick Osborn,
Many thanks for that!
Montjuich was and is a great passion of mine. I pray everynight that I will be able to lap the track within 3 seconds of your esteemed co-creator, Mr. G. Huttu

Old tracks are my burning passion. My ultimate (and secret up until now) fantasy is to drive on the old Interlagos track in GPL. It's actually kind of a weird choise, but I guess it has to do with the track still being used today. My favorite cases are these tracks that have been changed (Spa, Monza, Silverstone, etc.). I just can't get enough of it

I picked Pedralbes because of the recreation of the period's cars, because I've been to it, checked it and took pictures already, so it should be easier than a track such as Watkins Glen, which neither I nor Arthur S. have ever seen and because I thought that it would make a simply GREAT track for actual on-line racing.

[Santi]

Moshe,
knowing how difficult was the old "circuito del Parque", I'd be very happy lapping 5 sec slower than Mr Huttu.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Santi,
Were you able to have Montjuïch, 40 Years of Motor Racing, ordered by me on August 22, shipped already, surface or air?

What do you think is the problem that Circuito de Lasarte by Angel Elberdin is not available to folks like you? Why are you as a pro not able to get your hands on it? I have to consider myself very fortunate to have received this beautiful work of love via Maria, a Spanish lass from San Sebastian. In March 1999, while visiting her family there, she walked into the local RAC office and dragged one copy of this tome all the way to my 'Pacific beach resort' for a mere pittance.

[Santi]

Hey, Hans,
I believe you're confusing me with another person.
I'm not a seller, I only know a bookstore where I usually go to buy video-tapes or books about motor-racing.
After to know that Pincevs was looking for info about Pedralbes circuit, I realized I had seen something about it at this shop, and found a while to go there and check out the book.

[pinchevs]

Manuel,
You are of course completly right. I'd be very lucky to be within 5 seconds of GH.

Speaking of which...
Rick,
Do you have some data on lap times at Montjuich in GPL? I'm talking about human lap times, yes?;)

[pinchevs]

Ah! Great news!
Pablo just confirmed to me that my book is on its way

[osborn]

Hi,

We were running around in 1:32's I think but that is a bit academic because soon we change the track a fair bit (after a real life visit to Montjuic and seeing what needs to be changed) which means a bit of an overhaul of the track in the coming weeks These lap times are about right though, because if you look at 1969 qualifying grid:

Cla Nº Driver Car / Engine Time Delay
1 2 Jochen Rindt Lotus/Ford 1'25.7 -
2 15 Chris Amon Ferrari 1'26.2 0.5
3 1 Graham Hill Lotus/Ford 1'26.6 0.9
4 7 Jackie Stewart Matra/Ford 1'26.9 1.2
5 3 Jack Brabham Brabham/Ford 1'27.8 2.1
6 10 Jo Siffert Lotus/Ford 1'28.2 2.5
7 4 Jacky Ickx Brabham/Ford 1'28.4 2.7
8 5 Denny Hulme McLaren/Ford 1'28.6 2.9
9 14 John Surtees BRM 1'28.9 3.2
10 12 Jackie Oliver BRM 1'29.2 3.5
11 11 Piers Courage Brabham/Ford 1'29.3 3.6
12 8 J.P.Beltoise Matra/Ford 1'29.5 3.8
13 6 Bruce McLaren McLaren/Ford 1'29.7 4.0
14 9 Pedro Rodriguez BRM 1'34.1 8.4

And we in GPL don't have winged cars either so, I think if Greger does a 1:29 or something we'll be looking pretty good Keep your eye on the site for updates and good luck with your projects.

Rick

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by Santi
.....I believe you're confusing me with another person.....

Santi,
Sorry about that mix up.

[Barry Lake]

Hans

Don't feel embarassed. When I first saw the name Santi I too thought it was the bookseller from Barcelona. But when I tried to find the name to confirm it I couldn't remember where I had filed it. So I forgot about it and let you make the mistake.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Barry,
Thanks a lot! How generous of you.

I was looking for Santi Aleixandre at
LA LLIBRERIA DEL MOTOR
www.lallibreriadelmotor.com

info@lallibreriadelmotor.com

[pinchevs]

Gentlemen and dear TNF members,

I'm happy to revive this thread, because the Pedralbes project is now starting life. The team that recreated the Watkins Glen road circuit of 1948 for GPL is now about to start work on the Pedralbes track 1950-1954 (the long version). My very talented friends are Arthur Slabbaert, Rami Nahum, Oren Barnea and at least two new guys, Ran Finkels and Ahia Knimah.

When we worked on Watkins Glen we were given invaluable help by Dan Gulick who lived nearby. This is what we are looking for in Barcelona. Do any TNF members actually live in Barcelona (I believe a guy who calls himself Jarama and helped me prior to my visits - together with Rami - to the Barcelona tracks, actually lives or lived there) and do they or somebody else they know drive GPL? This would help as they would be able to test the accuracy of the track itself in GPL.

Furthermore, any additional help with information as described earlier in this thread will be very welcome. Send me any information whatsoever and let us decide what's important and what's not.

Thank you very much,

Moshe Pinchevsky

[jarama]

Hi, pinchevs,

I'm glad to see you're working in the Pedralbes version for GPL.

As you've guessed, I'm living in Barcelona, though I'm afraid I'm the only TNF regular living here. I drive GPL occasionally and would be very happy helping you again in this project... and doing test drives around Pedralbes, of course.

Regards,

Carles.

[Pine]

Hi Moshe,
Good to hear it's official. This is going to be fun
I searched Race Sim Central GPL forum for pedralbes and found a guy who studies in a university on the circuit's main straight!
http://forum.racesim...light=pedralbes
look for the posts by TxRC. I think he's not the only one from Barcelona in that forum.

[pinchevs]

Hola Carles (or should that be Charles?)

It's a great honor to have somebody like you help us in such a project. You are not just a local resident, but also an authority on history and your help is better than anything I could hope for. Finding out that you can also drive GPL is a huge bonus. I was even thinking of sending you a Spanish version of GPL I got at Barcelona

Right now I'm creating a CD-ROM of all the matterial I could find of Pedralbes. When this is ready (soon) real work will start. Any help with additional information will be welcomed. I've got the Spanish book about the Penya Rhin run GP's, which has a big section about Pedralbes. I also have pictures from many other books such as "rivals", Ferrari in camera (color pictures!!!) and many other books.

I'd say the two main problems are:
1) The "Los Grandes Primios..." book has a graph of elevation for the 46 "short" track. We need something like that for the entire track. If we can't find it we'll have to go with your local knowledge and what we remember from the visit there (plus the pictures).

2) The surroundings. They've changed so much that we'll have to work from the pictures, but some of them we can't make out where they are along the track. We need a lot of help on this, since just creating the track without the surroundings is no good, and the surroundings is the real pain in GPL track creation.

My e-mail is pinchevskymoshe@bezeqint.net (home)
and pinchevs@internet-zahav.net (work, so please no big attachments)

Many thanks!



Oren,
I know Manuel from this forum! He is the one who helped me get the "Los Grandes Primios..." book

I think that he and the other guy who studies on the Start/Finish straight can be of great help too. I've written a thread for them on Race Sim Central.

[Barry Boor]

Moshe, you MUST get a copy of Motorfilms Quarterly volume 4. There is real film from the 1954 Spanish Grand Prix; it should help your track building immensely.

[pinchevs]

Barry,
How do I go about doing that?

[Barry Boor]

As it is our very own Doug Nye who is part of the production team of these excellent videos/DVD's, I am sure a private message to him will bring you the information you need on how to obtain the film.

[pinchevs]

Many thanks barry
This sounds more interesting than just for Pedralbes

[Barry Boor]

Trust me, it most definitely is!