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Harry Weslake


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#1 ehagar

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Posted 17 August 2001 - 00:04

I've been going through some old motorcycle mags, and the name Weslake kept popping up.

So far as I can gather, Harry Weslake was involved in all sorts of Engine projects.Made a special carb called the 'Wex' and was never really an employee of anyone. An independant consultant?

So far I've found his name associated to Speedway machines, Sunbeam, Bentley, Jaguar, Norton, Triumph.... and oh yeah, Vanwall & Anglo-American racers!

I heard something to the effect that he actually died while attending a Speedway GP, he never retired...

Does anyone in the Nostalgia forum have some little tidbits, or even know of any records (books) of his works...

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#2 Barry Lake

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Posted 17 August 2001 - 03:25

There is a very good book by Harry Weslake/Jeff Clew:

Harry Weslake Lucky All My Life Jeff Clew 1979 Foulis/Haynes Publishing

#3 ehagar

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Posted 17 August 2001 - 06:29

A pretty expensive book too!

I found a copy for sale for 240 bucks :eek:

Wish the local library had a copy!

#4 FredF1

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Posted 17 August 2001 - 07:38

Speaking of Weslake....

I was watching a video the other night of the Gulf GT40 in action.

I noticed the name 'Weslake' on the engine.

Were these the same engines as used by AAR in the Eagle?


Fred.

#5 leegle

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Posted 17 August 2001 - 08:26

A part of the Weslake-Gurney 'partnership' of the sixties was the Gurney-Weslake heads for the 289 Ford engine.;) Dan used it in the Canam series in a Lola and I guess there were some put in Ford GT 40s but this was not usual. The V12 was a totally different engine of course. :)
The words 'Weslake Patent' appear on many production cylinder heads on BMC engines.

#6 Frank de Jong

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Posted 17 August 2001 - 10:41

Harry Weslake was also responsible for the succesful works Ford Capri group 2 engines 1971-1972.

#7 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 17 August 2001 - 14:16

There was also an other Weslake V12.
This Ford badged V12 which was tried in an failed sportscar attempt by Ford during the 1970s.

A 3-litre 4VPC unit.

Bore x Stroke : 75,00 x 56,50 mm
Max Power : 465 HP @ 10600 rpm

Does anyone have some further info?



#8 Roger Clark

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Posted 17 August 2001 - 19:06

Harry Weslake was a gasflow expert and his company did consultancy work for a large number of companies, usually on cylinder head design. I aways thought that they didn't have the same expertise with the structural aspects of the engine and that was the source of a lot of the problems with the gurney-Weslake V12.

During the 1960s Rubery Owen was a large shareholder in Weslake's company and they did a lot of research for BRM. quite how much of that research saw the light of day I have never found out; it included 4-valve heads for the V8, and a 3-litre V12 feasibility study in parallel with the H16. I also never understood the relationship (if any) between the various 3-litre V12s that Weslake had some association with: the Ford pictured by Rainer, the AAR engine and perhaps the 48-valve BRM. The visual resemblance was more than superficial. At one time there was a story that BRM were designing a V12 for Matra, but I don't think anything came of that.

in 1972, the Ford badged V12 was fitted to a formula 1 Brabham, the BT39. This was based on the formula 2 BT38. Graham Hill tested it but it proved not to be develping the claimed power and it was never raced.

During Weslake's association with Rubery Owen Peter Berthon was seconded to work there. Some unkind people have suggested that the whole thing was a scheme to keep him as far away from bourne as possible.

#9 Frank de Jong

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Posted 18 August 2001 - 09:48

Quote

Originally posted by Rainer Nyberg
There was also an other Weslake V12.
This Ford badged V12 which was tried in an failed sportscar attempt by Ford during the 1970s.


The engine was used (for sportscars) in the Mirage M6 of 1973; it was practised (but not raced) at Daytona in a spyder, a coupé version was used at the Le Mans test weekend in 1973.
According to John Wyer, neither the car nor the engine had any future and development was stopped.
According to bore/stroke figures, the Weslake V12 was different from the Ford V12.

#10 bergwerk

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Posted 18 August 2001 - 19:16

Quote

Originally posted by Frank de Jong
Harry Weslake was also responsible for the succesful works Ford Capri group 2 engines 1971-1972.


The Weslake firm did work on the intake side of the Ford Capri 2.6 - 3.0 liter V6. They also manufactured the cylinder heads for a certain period.
Otto Stulle the Ford Motorsport engine guru at the time ( he was the father of the BMW turbo before this ) developed the engine ably assisted by Werner Gausch who joined the team coming from Porsche.

#11 sterling49

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Posted 10 January 2007 - 21:45

Quote

Originally posted by bergwerk


The Weslake firm did work on the intake side of the Ford Capri 2.6 - 3.0 liter V6. They also manufactured the cylinder heads for a certain period.
Otto Stulle the Ford Motorsport engine guru at the time ( he was the father of the BMW turbo before this ) developed the engine ably assisted by Werner Gausch who joined the team coming from Porsche.


I know this is an old thread, so apologise in advance for this bump, however, I went to Rye Harbour today on business, and went past an Industrial Estate called Weslake. I guess this must have been on the site of Harry Weslake's factory, designer of great engines. I wish I had the camera with me so that I could post a photo of the signplate showing that evocative name. I know that he designed the V-12 for Dan Gurney's Eagles, but what other engines did he design/influence? I seem to recall that he had credits on the B.M.C. "A" series cylinder head? It also occurred to me that Rye is such a peaceful place to make things that made such a great, loud noise! It certainly was not my 1st visit to Rye, but it was to the Harbour, I just wished that I had done so before the demise of that famous factory. :(

#12 RS2000

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Posted 10 January 2007 - 22:39

Quote

Originally posted by sterling49


I seem to recall that he had credits on the B.M.C. "A" series cylinder head? (


On the badge on the rocker cover, no less.

#13 David M. Kane

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Posted 10 January 2007 - 22:55

Compared to the DFV, any idea what kind of money Ford threw at this project?

#14 Sharman

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 10:36

Idle musing, the BMC A engines used by Elva were Ryetune, I know that Ryetune were an offshoot of Frank Nichols little conglamorate but is there any possibility that there was input from Weslake? The engines were totally in keeping with the requirements of the FJ regs and could not compete in power output with the FIAT derived units even allowing for the capacity shortfall

#15 Doug Nye

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 11:49

Quote

Originally posted by sterling49
... he designed the V-12 for Dan Gurney's Eagles... I just wished that I had done so before the demise of that famous factory. :(


Not quite so. Aubrey Woods, ex-BRM, seconded to Weslake Research as ADC to Peter Berthon, was responsible for the Eagle V12 design, while Weslake's gas flow experience, expertise and theory contributed greatly to its narrow included-angle valve disposition within the cylinder heads. The relationship between Weslake at Rye and BRM at Bourne was chronically tense, and often frigid, based upon ongoing rivalry/jealousy between Tony Rudd (Chief Engineer at Bourne in succession to Berthon), PB himself having been effectively exiled to Rye, and Aubrey who had been at BRM before Tony, and had been consistently outshone by the incomer, ultimately to see him become Chief Engineer. Aubrey was one of very few - if not the only - senior design engineer to opt out of Bourne rather than stay on when given the choice upon Tony's appointment. I got the impression from Aubrey that he chose to go rather than wait for Tony to give him the push.

Weslake had a shining public reputation for its gas flow and engine tuning expertise, but this was a reputation founded in the 1930s-early 1950s, and into the 1960s the likes of Keith Duckworth and Cosworth had not only caught up but had taken the art further - as indeed had Honda in Japan and other major manufacturers. Some engineers with proven records through the 1960s-70s quite openly decried Harry Weslake's supposed genius - and Tony Rudd certainly never found very much at all to support the Rye company's claims when tested back-to-back on the BRM test dynos at Folkingham. Weslake supporters loudly claimed that he was out to denigrate anything which came out of Rye. Even so, the Weslake-designed 4-valve per cylinder heads for the BRM V8s were a costly flop - developing less useful output than the contemporary 2-valve BRM heads - while the true power output of Aubrey's Eagle-Weslake V12 was regarded as being wildly over-exaggerated by its manufacturers. The real problem with the Eagle engine was that no two units were identical, each one was hand-made to critically differing specs and this caused AAR some confusion and irritation.

DCN

#16 f1steveuk

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 14:49

When I was in England full time, I was quite close to Rye and constantly heard rumours of Weslake stuff hiding in various sheds around the area. The only evidence I ever saw was a V12 block, a bit corroded, at the bottom of someone's garden, and didn't he want money for it!!!

#17 sterling49

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 22:21

Quote

Originally posted by Doug Nye

The real problem with the Eagle engine was that no two units were identical, each one was hand-made to critically differing specs and this caused AAR some confusion and irritation.

DCN


Very informative Doug, thank you. At the time that the Eagles were racing, were they as powerful as the Cosworth DFV then? Also, what input did Dan Gurney have to the Gurney-Weslake heads for the Ford V-8 as used in the GT40 and Ford Falcon?

Sterling

#18 David M. Kane

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 00:10

How much seed money did Ford put into this prototype engine?

#19 cosworth bdg

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 01:18

The Weslake V12 of the era, had less BHP & Torque than an 860 Repco Brabham V8...................

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#20 275 GTB-4

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 03:58

Quote

Originally posted by Doug Nye


Not quite so. Aubrey Woods, ex-BRM, seconded to Weslake Research as ADC to Peter Berthon, was responsible for the Eagle V12 design, while Weslake's gas flow experience, expertise and theory contributed greatly to its narrow included-angle valve disposition within the cylinder heads. The relationship between Weslake at Rye and BRM at Bourne was chronically tense, and often frigid, based upon ongoing rivalry/jealousy between Tony Rudd (Chief Engineer at Bourne in succession to Berthon), PB himself having been effectively exiled to Rye, and Aubrey who had been at BRM before Tony, and had been consistently outshone by the incomer, ultimately to see him become Chief Engineer. Aubrey was one of very few - if not the only - senior design engineer to opt out of Bourne rather than stay on when given the choice upon Tony's appointment. I got the impression from Aubrey that he chose to go rather than wait for Tony to give him the push.

Weslake had a shining public reputation for its gas flow and engine tuning expertise, but this was a reputation founded in the 1930s-early 1950s, and into the 1960s the likes of Keith Duckworth and Cosworth had not only caught up but had taken the art further - as indeed had Honda in Japan and other major manufacturers. Some engineers with proven records through the 1960s-70s quite openly decried Harry Weslake's supposed genius - and Tony Rudd certainly never found very much at all to support the Rye company's claims when tested back-to-back on the BRM test dynos at Folkingham. Weslake supporters loudly claimed that he was out to denigrate anything which came out of Rye. Even so, the Weslake-designed 4-valve per cylinder heads for the BRM V8s were a costly flop - developing less useful output than the contemporary 2-valve BRM heads - while the true power output of Aubrey's Eagle-Weslake V12 was regarded as being wildly over-exaggerated by its manufacturers. The real problem with the Eagle engine was that no two units were identical, each one was hand-made to critically differing specs and this caused AAR some confusion and irritation.

DCN


Thanks Doug...seems like Harry was very much in the mould of our Phil Irving....great men in their time :up:

#21 Dennis Hockenbury

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 04:19

Quote

Originally posted by sterling49
At the time that the Eagles were racing, were they as powerful as the Cosworth DFV then?Sterling

Of course the Gurney-Weslake V-12 only briefly competed against the early Cosworth DFV during part of the 1967 season.

As Doug noted, when tested on the BRM dyno at Folkingham the V-12 never tested at more than 390 bhp, far less than was reported during the 1967 season by Weslake.

If memory serves, the initial dyno run of the first DFV was slightly more than 400 bhp (409 or so).

#22 cosworth bdg

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 05:38

Quote

Originally posted by Rainer Nyberg
There was also an other Weslake V12.
This Ford badged V12 which was tried in an failed sportscar attempt by Ford during the 1970s.

A 3-litre 4VPC unit.

Bore x Stroke : 75,00 x 56,50 mm
Max Power : 465 HP @ 10600 rpm

Does anyone have some further info?

Very optimistic in the power stakes, i think, a very nice looking engine though............

#23 David M. Kane

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 14:26

It is a good looking engine. Does anyone know the degree of Ford's involvement and how much seed money it forked out. Could someone devert some of their Motor Sport energy to this question? :rolleyes:

#24 sterling49

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 18:24

Quote

Originally posted by David M. Kane
It is a good looking engine. Does anyone know the degree of Ford's involvement and how much seed money it forked out. Could someone devert some of their Motor Sport energy to this question? :rolleyes:


Sorry David, I have no idea of the cost to, or involvement by Ford, in fact I did not even know of the V-12 of the '70's. :confused:


Sterling

#25 rdmotorsport

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 20:05

I am not sure (memory versus age) but was not Jon Penistone involve with all this at Bourne?

#26 cosworth bdg

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Posted 17 January 2007 - 02:05

Quote

Originally posted by David M. Kane
It is a good looking engine. Does anyone know the degree of Ford's involvement and how much seed money it forked out. Could someone devert some of their Motor Sport energy to this question? :rolleyes:







Did cost really enter the equation ? at the time, i do not think so..

#27 cosworth bdg

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Posted 17 January 2007 - 03:27

Quote

Originally posted by sterling49


Very informative Doug, thank you. At the time that the Eagles were racing, were they as powerful as the Cosworth DFV then? Also, what input did Dan Gurney have to the Gurney-Weslake heads for the Ford V-8 as used in the GT40 and Ford Falcon?

Sterling






Were they as powerfull? , i think not .... :down:

#28 Weslake

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Posted 21 April 2007 - 13:18

Quote

Originally posted by bergwerk
Weslake have just made a batch of the original V6 Race car heads. All from the original tooling.
Photos of the unmachined heads can be seen on their website at www.weslake.co.uk.

The Weslake firm did work on the intake side of the Ford Capri 2.6 - 3.0 liter V6. They also manufactured the cylinder heads for a certain period.
Otto Stulle the Ford Motorsport engine guru at the time ( he was the father of the BMW turbo before this ) developed the engine ably assisted by Werner Gausch who joined the team coming from Porsche.



#29 karlcars

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 09:47

FYI the whole detailed story of all these twelves is in my book "The V12 Engine", which I trust is regular bedtime reading for serious TNFers.

It even continues to the "BRM-revival" sports-car engine....

#30 Bob Riebe

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 17:10

For his seeming lackings in four-valve technology, he quite well in two-valve witht he small-block Fords, and in the very short time, Plymouth ran the Weslake heads, they managed a win.

Although his theories failed miserably in his redesign of the Dodge Hemi cylinder heads.

Still not a bad record.

Bob