40 replies to this topic

[RedFever]

Yep, sounds crazy but this is what Sauber said:

"Peter Sauber has suggested he would only allow Kimi Raikkonen to leave his team to go to Ferrari if the Italian team provided the Swiss outfit with free engines.

"If Ferrari want Kimi Raikkonen they can have him if they give us free engines in exchange," Sauber told Sports.com


Now, we all know that Prost is struggling to come up with $20M for next year, the amount Ferrari charges for their engines for one year. So, that means Peter Sauber expects Ferrari to forfait $20M if they will plan in the future to get the young Fin!!!!

[Ricardo F1]

Me doubts Ferrari will go for that one, and Rubens is probably quite pleased to hear that too!!!

[RV_Canada]

Message to Kimi: THIS IS A GREAT TIME TO ASK FOR A RAISE!!

[arcwulf7]

I don't know if anyone noticed but Barichello has been performing just fine as a number two driver at Ferrari. Given in an ideal situation that a number 2 would take 60% of the points of the annointed number 1, Rubens has produced about 52% of Michael's points if you count his moving over in Austria, running interferance for MS when in position -- and that after he was punted off or suffered tech problems in a few races. That is pretty close to optimal, and add to that both Michael and the team admire his car development and testing work. All that for $3 to 4 million. Kimi is unproven and unneeded at Ferrari, and to get 20 million in this league you can present your fully payed for WDC credentials before you get in the door, and even then you're unlikely to get it unless you find a sponsor to pay for it.

[Ricardo F1]

Kimi would probably push Michael further and faster and will, as he gains experience, make a front Ferrari front row and 1-2 far more often than Rubens has been able to. Reliability aside Rubens would have far fewer points this year if it was just down to racing ability.

[Ghostrider]

Let us see what Raikkonon can do next year. Rookies are always rated high due to the low expectations. He seems like a future megastar, but many people do in their first year.

[RedFever]

I agree with both last posts. Rubens is doing a good 2nd driver job. However, as ricardo mentioned, now that MS has 4 titles, 51 wins, etc, Kimi might be more useful. In fact, both Michael and Luca Badoer are already excellent test drivers anyway (which kimi is not yet, naturally) but Kimi, with his supposed speed would push Michael harder, benefitting the Ferrari team with strong performances.

However, I think that altough Kimi has shown more maturity than any rookie coming to F1 this year, on top of good speed and determination, I strongly disagree with Sauber that he is worth, at present, a full year of engine supply worth $20M. Consider Mika is making $12M and you get an idea of how out of range this quote is.

In any case "and even then you're unlikely to get it unless you find a sponsor to pay for it.", money is not really a problem for Ferrari when it comes to drivers, as their contract with Marlboro makes sure the US company pays whatever salary is agreed by the team with the drivers. Hence, if Luca decides Kimi is worth $20M, than marlboro would pay for him.

[Ricardo F1]

Unless Marlboro disagrees . . . . which I think they would in this case!!!

[Mrv]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
Unless Marlboro disagrees . . . . which I think they would in this case!!!

No. Marlboro will do anything that Ferrari tells them to as long as they see that it will benefit the team. The same goes for Shell. Don't forget next year Vodafone has joined Ferrari. $$$$ ain't a problem at Ferrari. However I will agree that $20 mil for Kimi is way out of line. Poor Mika and his contract with Ronny. I get a kick out of the latest rumor that Kimi is going to take Mika's seat at Mclaren. Ya right I can see Ron paying all those $$$$$ for Kimi.

[RedFever]

who knows????? much hyped Juan Pablo Montoya arrived 8th in Hungary with a Williams BMW while Kimi arrived 7th with a Sauber........

After all, I am sure sauber would let Ferrari take Kimi for $5M, if Luca really wanted him now. What is he going to say? "it's 20M or you can shove your engines up yours!!!" ?

I seriously doubt it. Bottomline is that Sauber expects Kimi to do well in 2002, he expects he will need the engines also after 2002, he expects Ferrari to want a young gun in 2003 to replace Rubens and get ready for taking over Schumi's role after 2004. Kimi looks a possibility, so Sauber is starting to play his deck of cars already hoping to score well in the future. Nothing will happen this year, both Nick and kimi will drive a Sauber in 2002

[Mrv]

This has nothing to do with this thread, but please Ferrari give Sauber the 050B from now on!!!!! The least you can do. I just want to see how much of improvement Sauber can make in a race.

[Ricardo F1]

Mrv. No. Marlboro's first and only priority is their shareholders, if they feel $20m for Kimi Raikonnen is not valid (which I think we'd agree) then they would not agree to pay the money.

Ron wouldn't have to pay $20m for Kimi, he'd just have to release Heidfeld to Sauber.

[Peeko]

Ron wouldn't have to pay $20m for Kimi, he'd just have to release Heidfeld to Sauber.

So let me get this straight. Ferrari would have to give Sauber free engines for Kimi, while all Ron has to do is release Nick? Do you think Nick is more valuable to Sauber than Ferrari engines? Without a good engine, your driver is no where.

[Ricardo F1]

Of course not but what I mean is that both teams have a bargaining chip in this deal. Everyone knows that Sauber is being facetious in valuing Kimi at $20m, it's beyond ludicrous this early in his career.

[Mrv]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
Mrv. No. Marlboro's first and only priority is their shareholders

Exactly, and if Kimi would bring more success to Ferrari by driving for them, those Shareholders will be more than happy, as their stocks continue to rise with those lunatic Tifosi's buying more tobacco than ever!!!! Not to mention all of Finland turning into Marlboro customers. Don't you just love the stockmarket.

[Ricardo F1]

Right, and amusingly put, but I don't think you'll find a Marlboro executive who would willingly put their neck on the block and say that a driver who has yet to complete one season of racing is worth $20mm!

[arcwulf7]

Of the top three teams only Williams really goes out on a limb and brings in Cart rookies or f3 drivers, and that's partly because that team is so skilled at developing drivers. And they pair them with an experienced f1 team mate. Both Ferrari and McLaren wait past the the sophomore jinx year to make any committments, they don't want anyone on a learning curve in their organization. Don't expect Raikkonen to get a top seat before 2003, and that is very much dependent on how he does in year 2. If he starts to seriously outpace Heidfeld he has a chance, but that hasn't happened yet. You don't see much interest in Button for a competitive seat next year. And if that happens he might get a nice raise to 2 or 3 million with some performance bonuses. The tech boom is over, sponsors are getting harder to come by, and the era of huge guaranteed salary contracts is on ice for the time being (those being greater than RS's 10M, which might be the last of the big ones for a while)

[Ricardo F1]

I'm not sure you can say that of Williams at all - in fact they've been known to be pretty harsh on their drivers - Hill, Frentzen, et al. Montoya they optioned early and sent off for grooming, but Raikonnen isn't going to move unless it's for a guaranteed drive which Frank wouldn't offer.

Nobody is going to pay him $20m either, I think Saubers just saying that's what he's worth to him right now because he knows Ferrari want him!! Ronzo has to make a choice between Heidfeld and Raikonnen and agree on that choice with PS. . . .

[Peeko]

Nobody is going to pay him $20m either, I think Saubers just saying that's what he's worth to him right now because he knows Ferrari want him!! Ronzo has to make a choice between Heidfeld and Raikonnen and agree on that choice with PS. . . .

I'm pretty sure Peter meant the comment to be a joke, in that he would have to be a good deal to let him go. However, I still find it hard to grasp your scenario. He either 1) get's free Ferrari engines in exchange for Kimi, or 2) he gives Kimi to McLaren in exchange for Nick's rights (which doesn't guaruntee he'll sign there), then needs to find an engine, as I don't see how Ferrari would be so gracious if this were to happen.

[Ricardo F1]

Exactly, the engine comment is meant to be a gag, so therefore scenario 1 doesn't exist, Ferrari are not going to give Peter Sauber engines for a year in exchange for a rookie driver. A discount, perhaps, but I can't see that being more than a couple of million. . .

[Peeko]

I guess, but remember that Ferrari doesn't have to give Sauber it's engines at all...

[Ricardo F1]

Absolutely - so maybe Peter Saubers words were not the wisest he could have come out with!!!!! Now Ferrari has the upper hand - give us your driver or you're not having our engines . . not even for $20mm!!!

[Peeko]

Yeah. The article I read claimed he said it jokingly. Anyway, there's not much Sauber can do once Kimi's contract is up.

[RacingDriver]

Ok guys I think it was just a joke by Peter Sauber. The correct quote should be like that.

‘If Ferrari want Kimi Raikkonen they can have him if they give us free engines in exchange,’ laughed the Swiss.

[Ricardo F1]

Well we know that, it's just not the most sensible thing to have said when you consider the discussion that Peeko and I just had!!!

[Peeko]

Yeah!! Who let you into our world anyway??

[Ricardo F1]

I'm floating Peek - I'm finally floating

[AD]

You have to feel sorry for Nick Heidfeld. You outdrive your teammate yet he gets all the glory and praise. If Kimi is supposedly worth $20m, then going be the same logic Heidfeld must be worth damn near $25m.

[RAD]

right on AD.

All this and that about KR and everyone forgets that NH has out performed him.

[TAB666]

Originally posted by arcwulf7
Of the top three teams only Williams really goes out on a limb and brings in Cart rookies or f3 drivers, and that's partly because that team is so skilled at developing drivers. And they pair them with an experienced f1 team mate. Both Ferrari and McLaren wait past the the sophomore jinx year to make any committments, they don't want anyone on a learning curve in their organization. Don't expect Raikkonen to get a top seat before 2003, and that is very much dependent on how he does in year 2. If he starts to seriously outpace Heidfeld he has a chance, but that hasn't happened yet. You don't see much interest in Button for a competitive seat next year. And if that happens he might get a nice raise to 2 or 3 million with some performance bonuses. The tech boom is over, sponsors are getting harder to come by, and the era of huge guaranteed salary contracts is on ice for the time being (those being greater than RS's 10M, which might be the last of the big ones for a while)

Ha ha developing drivers that was a good one. Dc turned out great didnt he lol. And i cant say that Hill was mutch better. JV is at the same lvl as Hill, maybe a bit faster.

[THE FULL MONTY]

Heidfeld has prove that is a lot better than Raikkonen... I'm tired of people overrating Kimi...

[TheDestroyer]

I don't think Kimi is overrated. Maybe a little unproven - next season will see if he suffers from Button and Wurz itis but...

This is all Sauber's posturing. I think Kimi will go to Ferrari but Ferrari won't give Sauber free engines. They may give Sauber a big break on engines with the caveat that Sauber is Kimi's proving ground until 2003 or 2004 - then he goes to Ferrari

[Oho]

Ave !!!

At least to Finish journalists Sauber commented that his Kimi for engines swap comment was light hearted and not ment to be taken seriously.

Nick must be feeling pissed about it, he is still ahead of Kimi but left out on the cold. Guess his relative experinece (a couple of seasons in F3000 and one in F1) had people expecting much more out of him than Kimi.

- Oho -

[Czesc]

Last week Turun Sanomat quoted Peter Sauber as saying "I wouldn't even discuss releasing Kimi of his contract for the price of Eddie Irvine (when Ferrari bought him in late 1995 = $5M)"

[JayWay]

How is Raikkonen overrated?

People very much take for granted the disadvantage a rookie is at. I believe to fulfill true speed, a driver must be fully comfortable with a car but also know F1 (car, engineer interaction, etc) in depth enough that he can really push the limit of his potential. This has been shown many times in the past where drivers have spoken out on behalf of otheres.

Fisichella excused Buttons poor preformances, saying that he fully expects Button to come around when he gets comfortable with the car (this was not even rookie year, but just in a new team, new situation)

In 96 Schumacher was impressed with the way Villeneuve pushed Hill and commented that he was expecting JV to push him much harder and maybe beat him in 97 now that he had a year under his belt.

Heidfeld said himself before the season that he would be embarrased to be outpaced by his rookie teammate.

Raikkonen has even expressed his belief that he expects himself to make a big leap next year. This surprises me that he would say this himself, because one of Raikkonens best attributes is his amazing ability to be on or near the pace almost immidialty. He is so cool and calm and calculated, and it's like he just goes out there and does it like he was a 10 year vetran. But even with someone of his profile, he admitts he will improve.

It also so true with him because of just how little open wheel experience Raikkonen does have. Compare Heidfeld and Kimi.


One is known for his ability on the technical side of things, something that has come from vast experience with open wheel cars in the junior ranks. Heidfeld knows a car better then most F1 vets. Something that in this day of F1 goes such a long way and is so crucial. Then you have Raikkonen who is nearly the opposite. Yet Raikkonen almost immidialty was on Heidfelds pace. Heidfeld had a small advantage early on, but Raikkonen compenstated for it very quickly and by Canada pretty much had the measure of Heidfeld.

I believe Raikkonen to have very very very good natural speed and I though for sure Heidfeld didn't have a chance. But one thing I have seen with Heidfeld, is he really has picked up his game in the 2nd half, and has met the challenge of Raikkonen. I didn't think he could do this. However he did. I am impressed with Heidfelds speed. Even last year (as a rookie) he was quicker then Alesi in the 2nd half, ofcourse Alesi is not that quick, but still it is impressive. But the interesting thing is, that with Heidfelds experience and knowledge of openwheel cars I would have thought that atleast the time it took to get on the pace would be shorter then Raikkonen (Heidfeld in 2000 to Kimi in 2001 I am talking about) but no, Raikkonen it took a matter of races, Heidfeld only started to get the measure of Alesi after the halfway point. This is part of what leads me to believe Raikkonen has imense natural talent.

They have both been bloody impressive this year, but when you put it in context, I think Raikkonen has been a bit better.

[T4E]

..and to add to JayWay's comments, it's funny when you remember before this season people talking about Nick kicking Kimi's butt around.

Well now some people are carefully telling that Nick has out performed Kimi...

Lets see next year.

[HSJ]

Peter Sauber has later clarified that the 20M/free engines quote was a joke or a misunderstanding. So don't take it seriously. Though someday someone could very well pay that for KR...

[BRG]

Originally posted by TAB666
Dc turned out great didnt he lol. And i cant say that Hill was mutch better. JV is at the same lvl as Hill, maybe a bit faster.

With 44 wins and 2 WDCs between them, yeah, all three have been real disappointments.... maybe Williams knows a bit more than TAB666 about drivers?

[TheDestroyer]

HSJ,

He's saying it's a joke and it probably wasn't a real offer but this is also Sauber's way to start negotiations with Ferrari for engines and the possible trade of Kimi.

[tombr]

Ferari to Sauber - "Yes, we are interested in paying $20 million for Kimi next year. Coincidentally, that is the amount of increase in the cost of our engines. So, you can _not_ give us Kimi and pay $40 million for the engines next year or you can give us Kimi and continue to get Ferari engines for $20 million."

If Ferari wants Kimi, they will take him.

[Math Soucy]

I agree with others who complain that Heidfeld's performances and head-to-head comparisons with his rookie teammate have been overlooked or dismissed entirely. Although not an F1 rookie, he is still in his first year with Sauber, as is Kimi, so this reduces the advantage of teammates with one having greater experience with the equipment or team dynamics.