85 replies to this topic

[Rob Ryder]

Can anyone tell me if there was special reason for John Surtees having a white arrow painted on his F1 cars? His red M7C had a white arrow, and the later blue Surtees F1's also had a white arrow. IIRC he even had a white arrow on his red Can-Am Lola!

Rob

[David M. Kane]

The forward arrow is an inherent piece in the overall TEAM SURTEES logo design. It was a part of all the logos he used on his team shirts, team jackets, etc.

Maybe someone can post some old photos from that era of their mechanic uniforms, etc.

[Wolf]

During my summer break, I studied my recently purchased 'Grand Prix!' book (vol. 1&2), and Rob's post prompted me to ask about Surtees and Rob Walker Team merging (?) in 1971. Anyone care to enlighten me on that matter (why &c)?

[Milan Fistonic]

In an interview on PlanetF1, editor, Chris Balfe asked Surtees about the arrow on his cars. His reply was to do with Ferrari not allowing him to race in the CanAm series for another manufacturer so he set up Lola Racing in his name.

"I decided we needed a sign or logo and we thought 'we're going somewhere - why not have an arrow?' So we had the arrow, and eventually had it on our F1 cars, our F2 cars and the Lolas. In fact it will reappear on Henry's (his son) karts."

[Milan Fistonic]

Wolf

In the book John Surtees World Champion he has this to say on the deal.

On the F1 front for the 1971 season, Brooke Bond Oxo came in with sponsorship of 22,000 pounds. We ran under the Brooke Bond Oxo Rob Walker banner, a gentlemanly gesture on the part of Brooke Bond who had first become involved the previous year with Rob's team. They said that, in fairness, he should have his name involved, which would ensure he sustained his interest in F1 by being linked with our team.

[Rob Ryder]

Thanks Milan

[Wolf]

I'll second that, Rob.

[sterling49]

Originally posted by Rob Ryder
Can anyone tell me if there was special reason for John Surtees having a white arrow painted on his F1 cars? His red M7C had a white arrow, and the later blue Surtees F1's also had a white arrow. IIRC he even had a white arrow on his red Can-Am Lola!

Rob

Interesting thread this, Team Surtees Stripe always looked fantastic to me, especially on the Lola Aston Martin that he raced in '67 at the B.O.A.C. 500 and Le Mans and on the Lola BMW F2 cars.
Sadly the Aston Martin engine didn't hold up too well and I don't think it lasted long at Brands (where he was partnered by either Chris Irwin or David Hobbs, I cannot remember) does anyone have any photos of that gorgeous T70? Or any ideas why the Aston Martin project failed and was replaced by the ubiquitous Chevy?

[Macca]

He already had the Chevy at Brands - only did the Nurburg & Le Mans with the Aston, and the project fell apart in acrimony.

Paul M

[wildman]

Speaking of the T70-Aston, does anyone know why the big 1/12-scale Tamiya kit was produced with the Nurburgring markings ... and the Chevy engine? Not to mention the box art that shows it in blue instead of the correct green?

[sterling49]

Originally posted by Macca
He already had the Chevy at Brands - only did the Nurburg & Le Mans with the Aston, and the project fell apart in acrimony.

Paul M

I think that big John retired early, and thought that was to do with the AM engine, unaware that he was aleady running a Chevy. I remember that he was up front at the start though

Does anybody know if the AM engine was a "factory" unit or built by a recognised tuner/builder?

[Huw Jadvantich]

Didn't Salvadori have something to do with the T70 Aston project?
When did the Arrow dissapper -it was on the Matchnbox cars but not the Durex ones, so was it the TS19 where it dissappeared?

[Ray Bell]

I'm sure the Aston project was all with factory support... but the engines may have been to an outside tuner as well...

The arrow was a great design for its day.

[ian senior]

Originally posted by wildman
Speaking of the T70-Aston, does anyone know why the big 1/12-scale Tamiya kit was produced with the Nurburgring markings ... and the Chevy engine? Not to mention the box art that shows it in blue instead of the correct green?

I bought that model, and I was mug enough to believe that the blue colour was correct, so that's how I painted mine. The self-adhesive white arrow that they supplied was useless so I painted my own, after faffing about with masking tape. Still got it somewhere....

[RA Historian]

Originally posted by wildman
Speaking of the T70-Aston, does anyone know why the big 1/12-scale Tamiya kit was produced with the Nurburgring markings ... and the Chevy engine? Not to mention the box art that shows it in blue instead of the correct green?

It was Tamiya, I believe, that also had a model of the Surtees Lola T-160. 1/18 or 1/20 scale. Red, with a proper white arrow decal. Rear deck was removable to show a carbureted Chevy V-8. I probably paid about eight or ten dollars for it back around 1969 and still have it.

[Arjan de Roos]

Originally posted by wildman
Speaking of the T70-Aston, does anyone know why the big 1/12-scale Tamiya kit was produced with the Nurburgring markings ... and the Chevy engine? Not to mention the box art that shows it in blue instead of the correct green?

Being a Tamiya fan for over 30 years I have to respond to this

Tamiya made the Honda RA273 as their first model in 1:12th scale. In interviews with mr. Shunsaku Tamiya, he explained that they only had some 20 minutes to take all photo's and meassurements somewhere on an airport. Remarkably how well the first version worked out.
With the Lola the same may have happened in a sense that they 'forgot' to get the color right, maybe only taking b&w pictures?
Mind you, Tamiya in those days did not only look to get the most accurate model with a perfect fit. They also motorized all models, regardless of scale. Motorized models were quite popular in Japan in the sixties and the source for Tamiya's existence. Little boys competed with their 1/35th tanks.
Both the 1:12 Lola T70 and the 1:18th Lola T160 have seen small re-issues, often distributed locally (despite a factory confirmation that the T70 moulds had been damaged).

Why Nurburgring? I can only guess that as Tamiya had their first firm european contacts there with a distributor, some information sources, the Neurenberg toy fair and given the huge German modelling market at the time, it had to be a german raceversion. This is the case with some other kits as well. Also their tank choice is quite german oriented.
After-market parts have been available for the 1/12th Lola with decals to make different versions, despite the Chevy in the back.

[David M. Kane]

It had nothing to do with Durex sponsorship?

[Nanni Dietrich]

Originally posted by RA Historian
It was Tamiya, I believe, that also had a model of the Surtees Lola T-160. 1/18 or 1/20 scale. Red, with a proper white arrow decal. Rear deck was removable to show a carbureted Chevy V-8. I probably paid about eight or ten dollars for it back around 1969 and still have it.

I did the same, and I'm sure the Tamiya Lola was red (with white arrow).

If I remember well Surtees raced in 1967 season always with David Hobbs as co-driver. Chris Irwin was entered in the second car of the team au Mans, with Piet De Klerk as co-driver (don't remember if they started the race).

[LOTI]

Yes, Luckily Chris got the first stint at Le Mans.... bless him, running across the road was pretty much the high point! John did three laps, Chris lasted a whole 20 minutes..... and then we went home.
Loti

[macoran]

Originally posted by David M. Kane
It had nothing to do with Durex sponsorship?

I would've thought Durex would have rather approved of the arrow !!
Sorry, couldn't help it

[Rob Ryder]

Over 5 years dormant and this thread emerges again.. TNF amazes me
Rob

[f1steveuk]

Originally posted by Arjan de Roos


Being a Tamiya fan for over 30 years I have to respond to this
.

In the good old days of working in F1, Japan was a favourite of mine, only because in a little side road from the hotel we stayed, in Suzuka, was a tiny model shop, and in there stacked floor to ceiling was at least 10 of EVERY Tamiya racing car, regardless of scale , ever produced, wedged in everywhere, including some that never made it to Europe (like a 1/20th (that was the small scale wasn't it?) Lotus 49B in Gold Leaf colours with the high rear wing). If I had been allowed, I woul have spent waaaaaaaaaay too much money!

[sterling49]

Originally posted by Rob Ryder
Over 5 years dormant and this thread emerges again.. TNF amazes me
Rob

So many good threads at the end of the book, so to speak, and I was not a member then, and I am partial to "bump" the subjects that I remember so fondly, that is what is so good about TNF

[Mal9444]

Originally posted by sterling49


So many good threads at the end of the book, so to speak, and I was not a member then, and I am partial to "bump" the subjects that I remember so fondly, that is what is so good about TNF

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by Rob Ryder
Over 5 years dormant and this thread emerges again.. TNF amazes me
Rob

Just wait till they go interactive by SGML tagging the whole deal Rob....that will knock ya socks off

Surtees @ F1GP 2005....I took the pic as I admired Mike Hailwood (a great deal) and it is similar/same to his Tasman mount

[LOTI]

Happy Birthday J.S.

[sterling49]

Originally posted by LOTI
Happy Birthday J.S.

A big hand to Big John and all the great days of pleasure he gave for me as a young and teenage spectator Happy Birthday. I still feel for him for Silverstone '73.

[Mallory Dan]

Originally posted by sterling49



A big hand to Big John and all the great days of pleasure he gave for me as a young and teenage spectator Happy Birthday. I still feel for him for Silverstone '73.

Were his 3 cars destroyed that day insured does anyone know ?

[Stephen W]

Originally posted by Mallory Dan


Were his 3 cars destroyed that day insured does anyone know ?

Don't know; however on the 14th July at Silverstone the 3 Surtees cars were "destroyed" and yet on the 3rd August there were three Surtees cars practicing for the German Grand Prix!

Pretty smart work no matter what the finances were!

[David M. Kane]

I still think those early Surtees were pretty cars, TS-7 through TS-10.

[macoran]

1st time I saw the TS7 I thought it was a beauty !!

[sterling49]

Originally posted by macoran
1st time I saw the TS7 I thought it was a beauty !!

All of the Surtees cars were very pleasing to the eyes, I especially liked the Matchbox F2 cars, but really, I could look at the Team Surtees Lola T70 all day long, a bit like a Ferrari 330P4 really, just perfection.The last time I saw the Ferrari at Stoneleigh, I had to be dragged away from the stand

[Barry Boor]

I shall pass your opinions of TS.7 onto Peter Connew....

[macoran]

Just out of interest Barry, was PC already involved on TS7 ?
I can see his involvement in later designs clearly...especially TS20
suspension if I am not mistaken.

[Barry Boor]

TS.7 was the ONLY Surtees F.1 car that he worked on.

He had some input into the pannier tanks of JS's McLaren before TS.7 came along, but had left Edenbridge before the next F.1 car was designed.

[sterling49]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
TS.7 was the ONLY Surtees F.1 car that he worked on.

He had some input into the pannier tanks of JS's McLaren before TS.7 came along, but had left Edenbridge before the next F.1 car was designed.

Gee, I must be getting old, it all seems such a longtime ago, I can hear Anthony Marsh speaking over the Brands Tannoy system of the cars from Edenbridge,

Pannier tanks on the McLaren, I remember them well!

[macoran]

signing up for brain check tomorrow

[sterling49]

Originally posted by macoran
signing up for brain check tomorrow

Happy days!

[ian senior]

Originally posted by Stephen W


Don't know; however on the 14th July at Silverstone the 3 Surtees cars were "destroyed" and yet on the 3rd August there were three Surtees cars practicing for the German Grand Prix!

Pretty smart work no matter what the finances were!

Badly damaged certainly, but not as badly as appeared at first glance. Some reporter shoved a mike under a very distraught John's nose in the immediate aftermath of the incident, and John said "that's me out of motor racing now". I was moved to actually write to express sympathy and hope that things were better than they seemed;not the kind of thing I normally did but I really felt for the guy. I was amazed to actually get a reply from him only a few days later, thanking me for taking the trouble to write and saying that things weren't too bad after all and he hoped to be up to complement in Germany. The fact that he did that when he had many more important things to do at the time speaks volumes for Big John.

[Paul Parker]

In reply to the earlier query about the Aston engines used in the Surtees Lola T70s.

The unit was not really powerful enough (380 bhp according to sources) and before Le Mans 1967 its designer Tadek Marek reportedly concerned about potential cylinder head gasket problems changed the design without informing the team.

Following this the Aston engines were returned to the factory and the team reverted to Chevy power.

[mfd]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
pannier tanks of JS's McLaren

Like these Barry?

[Barry Boor]

Not like these.... THESE!

[mfd]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
Not like these.... THESE!

Have I lost this in translation ?

[sterling49]

Originally posted by mfd

Like these Barry?

Is this the car that Vic Elford drove at sometime?

[mfd]

Originally posted by sterling49


Is this the car that Vic Elford drove at sometime?

No the Elford car was an M7B sold to Colin Crabbe in 69. I think the unique M7C that Surtees drove in 1970 was based on an M10 F5000 tub and had only been raced previously by Bruce McLaren in 1969

[WDH74]

Thought I'd share:

[IMG]http://img162.images...tees1gs9.th.jpg[/IMG]

-William

[sterling49]

Originally posted by Paul Parker
In reply to the earlier query about the Aston engines used in the Surtees Lola T70s.

The unit was not really powerful enough (380 bhp according to sources) and before Le Mans 1967 its designer Tadek Marek reportedly concerned about potential cylinder head gasket problems changed the design without informing the team.

Following this the Aston engines were returned to the factory and the team reverted to Chevy power.

What were the best Chevy's giving? 450BHP? They used to be Bartz,Morand and I think Alan Smith of Derby used to rebuild these? I remember Tadek Marek, what was his history?

[David M. Kane]

That's Mark Harmer's TS-5 at Road America...

[David Lawson]

I managed to get two Surtees TS9s in this photograph I took during practice for the 1971 British Grand Prix although only Stommelen's car has the white arrow, I presume the sponsor of Bell's car wasn't obligated to carry it.



Incidently the mechanics working on the front of the car were actually removing the remains of a Silverstone hare that Stommelen had just run over, funny how you remember trivia like that from 35 years ago.

David

[Ray Bell]

Those cars had lovely looking tubs...

I always liked the Surtees cars of that era.