27 replies to this topic

[Graham Clayton]

Does anybody have any information on these two races,
especially the Cicruit des Routes Pavees?

[Vitesse2]

A few snippets from Georgano:

1930 Circuit des Routes Pavees (6 hours)

1 Joly (Bugatti T37)
2 ??? (Montier Special-Ford)

4-litre class won by a Delaunay-Belleville (!!!)

There was also a race in 1931, which, like 1930, is not in Monkhouse/King-Farlow:

1 Zehender (Alfa Romeo 1750) Av speed 105.25km/h = 65.4mph
2 Fourny (Bugatti)
3 Joly (Bugatti)

In the 1931 race an Alfa crashed, killing one spectator and injuring ten. This accident spelled the end for the event.

[Vitesse2]

Grand Prix de L'Europe was an honorific title, not necessarily a separate race. In 1930, the title was awarded to the Belgian GP.

[Barry Lake]

Vitesse2

Strange. I thought we had spectator fatalities in motor racing fairly well covered, but I can find no record of the one you mention.

Do you have any more details? Who crashed? Date? Etc.

[Vitesse2]

Sorry Barry, no - details I have are from Georgano Encyclopaedia page 78. No more info there, I'm afraid ...

[Vitesse2]

To complete the 1930 result:

2 Charles Montier (Montier Special)
3 Brunet (Bugatti T43)

[Marcor]

The Circuit des Routes Pavées was organized for the first time in 1922, until 1931. The organizer, the AC du Nord de la France, used some badly war-torn roads around Lille and Tourcoing and created a race which was a test of suspension and holding-of-the-road.

Sportscars, touring cars and racing cars were mixed, as well as cars from different classes, with an overall winner not necessarily the fastest of all (this was a kind of handicap race, in fact).

list of the outright winner
1922: ?
1923: Gaudermen (Voisin 1500 cc, 4-seaters)
1924: Sénéchal (Chenard-Walcker 3 L)
1925: Rost (Georges-Irat 2 L)
1926: Caerels (Excelsior 5 L)
1927: Rost (Georges Irat 2 L)
1928: Ivanowski (Alfa Romeo 1500 cc)
1929: Zehender (Alfa Romeo 1750)
1930: Joly (Bugatti T37 1500 cc)
1931: Zehender (Alfa Romeo 1750 cc)

[Marcor]

I have the dates of the ten editions
1- 24 September 1922
2- 23 September 1923
3- 21 September 1924
4- 20 September 1925
5- 19 September 1926
6- 18 September 1927
7- 16 September 1928
8- 15 September 1929
9- 14 September 1930
10- 13 September 1931

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by Marcor
The Circuit des Routes Pavées........
1922: ?

Allgemeine Automobil-Zeitung, Wien, 15. October 1922, Nr.41/42 pg. 51-52:
On a circuit near Lille the Automobile Club of the Department Northern France organized on the 24. September a new kind of race over throughout paved roads. The circuit to be driven had a length of 13 kilometer, and had to be completed namely in the individual car classes, depending on the engine size 16- or as the case may be 31 times.....................
..........on the day of the race it was raining hard. In general, 37 drivers finished within the prescribed maximum times and remained without penalty points. Victory was decided over the best time in a seperate race over 500 meter.
Cyclecars up to 750cc, 16 laps = 208 km: Goubie (Dalila), 500 meter time: 40.4s.
Cyclecars up to 1100cc, 19 laps = 247 km: Bouquet (Dalila), 36 seconds.
Voiturettes up to 1100 cc, 247 km: Morel (Amilcar), 30.2s.
Cars up to 1.5-liter, 2-seats, 247 km: Cabour (Bugatti) 31.2s.
Up to 1.5-liter, 4-seats, 247 km: Varoquier (Citroen) 33.8s.
Up to 2-liter, 2-seats, 273 km: Desalle (La Ponette) 47.6s.
Up to 2-liter, 4-seats, 273 km: Martin (Bignan) 30.4s.
Up to 2.75-liter, 300 km: Beausacq (Chevrolet) 33.6s.
Up to 3.5-liter, 338 km: Lagache (Chenard) 27.2s.
Up to 4.5-liter, 377 km: André Boillot (Peugeot) and Cabaillot (Peugeot), both 25.6s.
BEST TIME OF THE DAY:
Over 4.5-liter, 403 km: Weinich (Farman), 500 meter time: 33 seconds.

[Udo K.]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
To complete the 1930 result:

2 Charles Montier (Montier Special)
3 Brunet (Bugatti T43)

4. Jean Delorme Bugatti
5. Ogez Delage

other starters:

Ufa (?) Gobron
Poivier Delaunet-Belleville
Antony Antony Special
Marcel Violet Huascar
Michel Dore BNC


Question: Is "Antony" correct or "Anthony" ? And does anybody know his first name?

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
Allgemeine Automobil-Zeitung, Wien, 15. October 1922, Nr.41/42 pg. 51-52:
On a circuit near Lille the Automobile Club of the Department Northern France organized on the 24. September a new kind of race over throughout paved roads.

Can anybody reconcile this with Marcor's statement that

The organizer, the AC du Nord de la France, used some badly war-torn roads around Lille and Tourcoing and created a race which was a test of suspension and holding-of-the-road.

Is there some subtlety in the French word pavee? And in what way was this a new kind a race?

[Vitesse2]

Pavé indicates that the road surface was cobbled, in this case with granite - this surface was deliberately chosen by the organizers for its difficulty, especially when wet. I think Marc's text may have lost something in the translation - I'd have thought the "war-torn" bit refers to the area rather than the roads specifically.

[Roger Clark]

I thought pavé indicated any sort of paving, although at that time and place it could well have been cobbled. i don't understand the point about "this surface was deliberately chosen by the organizers for its difficulty, especially when wet". Were these not public roads, closed for the occassion? Did the local authorities choose the surface for the same reason?

And does anybody have any idea in what way this was a new kind of race?

[David McKinney]

I think the organisers chose the worst roads they could find, as a test for the cars, and thus a new type of race. That the public had to drive on them as well was their problem.

[Roger Clark]

If they were the worst roads the organisers could find in Northern France they must have been pretty bad!

Reading Hans' post again, it may be that the "new kind of race" refers to a long distance run which had to be completed in a prescribed time, but with the results decided by a 500m sprint.

[Vitesse2]

Roger: check the picture on page 78 of Georgano.

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Roger: check the picture on page 78 of Georgano.

Thankyou. For the benefit of those who don't have the book, here it is.



This presumably a later race; the car is a Lancia Lambda. Georgano's text differs from what has been posted above. He says that the first race was in 1923 and was won by Rost in a Georges Irat. He doesn't mention the initial runs and the sprint to decide the results.

[Doug Nye]

The road surfaces of the Routes Pavees circuit were not merely rough, punishing and intended to be car breaking - the organisers also built 'sleeping gendarme' humps across the roads in various places. Somewhere we have photos of cars bounding into the air over these humps of what looks like cobbles covered with clay or rammed-earth. If it comes to light I'll post it. The point was that if a manufacturer could advertise his product as having excelled in the Routes Pavees then the public should be comfortable with the notion that it was, indeed, a rugged old iron...

DCN

[scheivlak]

We have a thread about bike racing on motor circuits; in a way, the Circuit des Routes Pavees is something like the reverse of that. As I understand the idea of this race (and quite possibly parts of its "trajectoire") is exactly like that of the famous Paris-Roubaix cycling classic with its "zones pavees".

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Udo K.



4. Jean Delorme Bugatti
5. Ogez Delage

other starters:

Ufa (?) Gobron
Poivier Delaunet-Belleville
Antony Antony Special
Marcel Violet Huascar
Michel Dore BNC

33 starters in total

Zehender (Alfa Romeo 6C-1750) R Engine
Count d'Arnoux (Bugatti T35C) R Accident

[alessandro silva]

A one-off "Grand Prix" was held in 1946 in that very same region around Lille, Roubaix and Tourcoing. It was called I Circuit des Trois Villes and was organized by the AC du Nord too. It saw the victory of Sommer and Louveau in the Maserati 8CL, 3035 that had been hired by Louveau. It was the first of the two victories of that car.
Does anybody know if there were cobbled roads in the circuit?
May I be directed to a map of the circuit, if any?

[Yves]

Originally posted by scheivlak
We have a thread about bike racing on motor circuits; in a way, the Circuit des Routes Pavees is something like the reverse of that. As I understand the idea of this race (and quite possibly parts of its "trajectoire") is exactly like that of the famous Paris-Roubaix cycling classic with its "zones pavees".

You make the point, Scheivlak : "les pavés du Nord" are still famous today of the Paris-Roubaix classic : there is a problem for this cycling race : such roads are more and more missing.
They have the reputation to be slippy and dangerous with modern "bicyclettes" so you can imagine with cars of that time...

Y.

[Kpy]

A little googling came up with this .....
http://www2.ac-lille.../la_vitesse.htm
The poster must be for the inaugural event.

The circuit must exist today- it's all public roads, albeit probably without the pavé. It's only a couple of hours up the road from me, so I may well pop up there later in the week. I shall take my trusty digital Canon, but then I'll have to take a course in posting .........

I was initially put off the scent by Georgano's reference to the races being "in the suburbs of Lille"; but I see the mention here of "banlieu de Lille" which can only mean "outskirts of Lille" since Pont-a-Marcq has never been in the built-up-area of Lille. So perhaps Georgano and the site's author had a common source of reference.

I'm not confinced that the event was held on pavé to present more of a challenge than normal roads. Northern France was proud of its pavé roads compared with other surfaces, although it was and is very slippery when wet. The competing cars don't seem to have been adapted for potholing or steeplechasing.

[Egon Thurner]

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
Allgemeine Automobil-Zeitung, Wien, 15. October 1922, Nr.41/42 pg. 51-52:
....
Up to 1.5-liter, 4-seats, 247 km: Varoquier (Citroen) 33.8s.

Michael Sedgwick (in Georgano's Encyclopedia, entry about Voisin, referring to 1922) says: "Gauderman (also) won the 1500cc four-seater class of the Circuit des Routes Pavées on one of the little 1,244cc C4s."

Maybe Gauderman was the fastest (only in his class, of course) to 'qualify' in the race round the circuit before?

Not very important, but interesting enough to drop a short note.


P.S.: How the name of this guy is to spell correct? Monkhouse has 'Gaudermann' and I also found 'Gouderman' and 'Gaudermen' ....

P.S.2: Marcor (in his list above) has Gaudermen (Voisin 1500 cc, 4-seaters) as winner for 1923. Monkhouse has 1. Rost (Georges Irat) and only 3. Gaudermann (Voisin)

[David McKinney]

Glad you raised that spelling issue, Egon. It's something I've always wondered, too
I think it's Goudeman. Or maybe Gaudeman. Or perhaps....?

[Egon Thurner]

In the meantime I also found 'Goudermann'.

So we have a lot of possibilities to choose the best one for everyone, not always life is that easy ...

in alphabetical order:

Gaudeman
Gauderman
Gaudermann
Goudeman
Gouderman
Goudermann
Goudermen

BTW: Was he the same man with the christian name 'Richard', who raced already in 1907/1908 ?

[Nanni Dietrich]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
A few snippets from Georgano:

1930 Circuit des Routes Pavees (6 hours)

1 Joly (Bugatti T37)
2 ??? (Montier Special-Ford)

4-litre class won by a Delaunay-Belleville (!!!)

There was also a race in 1931, which, like 1930, is not in Monkhouse/King-Farlow:

1 Zehender (Alfa Romeo 1750) Av speed 105.25km/h = 65.4mph
2 Fourny (Bugatti)
3 Joly (Bugatti)

In the 1931 race an Alfa crashed, killing one spectator and injuring ten. This accident spelled the end for the event.

According to the Italian newspaper Il Littoriale, issue 14 September 1931, on Sunday 13 September 1931, during the Circuit des Routes Pavées, the Alfa Romeo driven by Del Monico crashed and hit a group of spectators, killing Louis Rachez, a 6 year-old boy and injuring ten. Also another unknown person was killed in the accident.
Several serious accidents happened during the race, a total of 13 persons hospitalized were counted at the end of the day. French friver Commaert, who was leaving the pit area after a refuel was hardly hit by Brisson; Commaert's car, a Georges Irat, caught fire and the driver sustained extended bruises. He was transported to the hospital in critical conditions. The accidents and the two fatalities spelled the end for the event.

[Graham Clayton]

Originally posted by Marcor
The Circuit des Routes Pavées was organized for the first time in 1922, until 1931. The organizer, the AC du Nord de la France, used some badly war-torn roads around Lille and Tourcoing and created a race which was a test of suspension and holding-of-the-road.

Sportscars, touring cars and racing cars were mixed, as well as cars from different classes, with an overall winner not necessarily the fastest of all (this was a kind of handicap race, in fact).

list of the outright winner
1924: Sénéchal (Chenard-Walcker 3 L)

Marcor,

Here is a link to a Chenard-Walcker advertisement which mentions Senechal's victory:

http://www.adclassix...nardracecar.htm

Graham