499 replies to this topic

[Jim Thurman]

First, hi Gil, nice to see you back here, don't be a stranger.

And...

Originally posted by Hoofhearted
The debate on Edgemont was hilarious. Growing up I was always told Edgemont was the crossroads of 395 and Allesandro Blvd.

Well, yes...the business district of Edgemont was at Alessandro and 395. Which is still only about a mile from the track's main entrance. And, yes, I realize how amusing it seems to describe that as a "business district", but that's what it was and there were several small towns around San Bernardino and Riverside that were very much like Edgemont in that era.

There also was the fire station right across the street (Cottonwood) from Turn 9. I wonder what it's designated locale was?...well, other than being a county station. I have a funny feeling that it was in fact, the Edgemont fire station.

Even if it was called the Edgemont station, and despite the irrefutable evidence that would offer, somehow I get the feeling that it still wouldn't be accepted as RIR's location :

[Gil Bouffard]

If you check out www.fastlinesinternational.com you will see that I have been busy.

About the Riverside meeting in March. There will be Dave Wolin films on display. I've a couple of Dave's videos in my collection from the last century! That's how I describe my involvement in this stuff.

Gil

[Frank S]

Originally posted by Jim Thurman
First, hi Gil, nice to see you back here, don't be a stranger.

And...

Originally posted by Hoofhearted
The debate on Edgemont was hilarious. Growing up I was always told Edgemont was the crossroads of 395 and Allesandro Blvd.

Well, yes...the business district of Edgemont was at Alessandro and 395. Which is still only about a mile from the track's main entrance. And, yes, I realize how amusing it seems to describe that as a "business district", but that's what it was and there were several small towns around San Bernardino and Riverside that were very much like Edgemont in that era.

There also was the fire station right across the street (Cottonwood) from Turn 9. I wonder what it's designated locale was?...well, other than being a county station. I have a funny feeling that it was in fact, the Edgemont fire station.

Even if it was called the Edgemont station, and despite the irrefutable evidence that would offer, somehow I get the feeling that it still wouldn't be accepted as RIR's location :

I learned somewhere that Pete Brock rented a house across Cottonwood from Turn Nine; I bet he knows ...

BRE
23316 NE Red-Fall City Road
PMB 668
Redmond, WA 98053-8376
e: info@bre2.net
p: 425-868-1989
f: 425-868-0559

--
Frank Sheffield
San Diego CA
USA

[Hoofhearted]

Hmmm....... Does this mean we have been barking up the wrong tree all these years? Should it be Edgemont International Raceway?

[TheStranger]

The track though was never in Riverside city limits at any point IIRC (though it is firmly in Riverside County); in the last 4-5 years of operation, the land became part of the city of Moreno Valley.

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by Hoofhearted
Hmmm....... Does this mean we have been barking up the wrong tree all these years? Should it be Edgemont International Raceway?

Don't even joke about that! It was Riverside International Raceway, Edgemont, California until 1985, when it was in Moreno Valley...at least it should be referred to in that manner when putting it down in print or something even more permanent (such as what Henry proposed).

Allan E. Brown attempted to pinpoint track locations accurately in his book "The History of America's Speedways - Past & Present". I should ask him if he ran into this level of resistance (for full disclosure, I contributed to the above book).

There are many tracks in similar situations. Another one is Ascot Park actually being in Los Angeles ("The Shoestring") instead of Gardena. Always has been and never was in Gardena. It's original name was Los Angeles Speedway.

[HistoricMustang]

Originally posted by Jim Thurman

Don't even joke about that! It was Riverside International Raceway, Edgemont, California until 1985, when it was in Moreno Valley...at least it should be referred to in that manner when putting it down in print or something even more permanent (such as what Henry proposed).

Allan E. Brown attempted to pinpoint track locations accurately in his book "The History of America's Speedways - Past & Present". I should ask him if he ran into this level of resistance (for full disclosure, I contributed to the above book).

There are many tracks in similar situations. Another one is Ascot Park actually being in Los Angeles ("The Shoestring") instead of Gardena. Always has been and never was in Gardena. It's original name was Los Angeles Speedway.

Not to worry Jim, we have the real deal in place!

Henry

[Hoofhearted]

Originally posted by Jim Thurman

Don't even joke about that! It was Riverside International Raceway, Edgemont, California until 1985, when it was in Moreno Valley...at least it should be referred to in that manner when putting it down in print or something even more permanent (such as what Henry proposed).

Allan E. Brown attempted to pinpoint track locations accurately in his book "The History of America's Speedways - Past & Present". I should ask him if he ran into this level of resistance (for full disclosure, I contributed to the above book).

There are many tracks in similar situations. Another one is Ascot Park actually being in Los Angeles ("The Shoestring") instead of Gardena. Always has been and never was in Gardena. It's original name was Los Angeles Speedway.

Easy Jim! I was only teasing. I spent my youth at the raceway and an awful lot of time at Gardena. I have never heard of Ascot being in L.A. I think if you asked anyone who raced there or spectated there where Ascot was you would be told Gardena. Thats interesting.

[JimInSoCalif]

Originally posted by Jim Thurman

Don't even joke about that! It was Riverside International Raceway, Edgemont, California until 1985, when it was in Moreno Valley...at least it should be referred to in that manner when putting it down in print or something even more permanent (such as what Henry proposed).

Allan E. Brown attempted to pinpoint track locations accurately in his book "The History of America's Speedways - Past & Present". I should ask him if he ran into this level of resistance (for full disclosure, I contributed to the above book).

There are many tracks in similar situations. Another one is Ascot Park actually being in Los Angeles ("The Shoestring") instead of Gardena. Always has been and never was in Gardena. It's original name was Los Angeles Speedway.

That is interesting. I spent almost every Saturday night at Ascot during the 70's and 80's - at least when I was not at another dirt track - and I and everyone I knew thought we were in Gardena. Wherever we were, we sure saw some great racing.

As you probably know, there was another Los Angeles Speedway. It was a board track about where Santa Monica Blvd. and Wilshire Blvd. cross in Beverly Hills and operated for four or five years in the 1920's. From the little I know that seems to have been about the average life span of a board track. I read that it was called Los Angeles Speedway because so few people had heard of Beverly Hills back then.

Cheers, Jim.

[Hoofhearted]

Out of curiosity how did he determine that Ascot was in L.A. and not Gardena? I seem to remember when A.J. was advertising Ascot his ads would say Gardena not L.A. Was Aghajanian (sp?) wrong too?

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by Hoofhearted
Out of curiosity how did he determine that Ascot was in L.A. and not Gardena? I seem to remember when A.J. was advertising Ascot his ads would say Gardena not L.A. Was Aghajanian (sp?) wrong too?

I realized you were teasing, that's why I used the smilies ;)

How did I determine Ascot was in Los Angeles and not Gardena?...by looking at a map

Gardena's city limits ended just before or at Artesia Blvd. (roughly 174th St.). Ascot was at 183rd St., and as I mentioned, part of "The Shoestring" which came about by Los Angeles incorporating a small strip of land from it's southern boundary to San Pedro in order to gain a deep water port.

In the discussion above, we discussed why track operators and the media used locations other than where tracks exactly were. In reporters cases, it was the "dateline" which was where the nearest wire was (sometimes miles away). Promoters did it to give people a general idea. Rarely are race tracks actually in city limits. Usually they are on unincorporated land. If Aggie had used "Los Angeles", people would look all sorts of places. Often tracks names/datelines refer to the last larger city passed through. So, yes, Aggie was geographically incorrect...but it was done for advertising purposes. I'm sure Aggie was all too aware he paid monies to the city of Los Angeles

Another example - South Bay Speedway in San Diego. The track was always referred to as "Chula Vista" when the track was several miles East of Chula Vista and actually within San Diego city limits. The "South Bay area" of San Diego covers a wide area (obviously the area along the southern part of San Diego Bay ). Later, promoter Don Basile changed the track's name to Speedway 117 in hopes that a newly designated highway would help people locate it.

This is quite common and is the case with countless race tracks around the country. In some cases you go through two smaller towns to get to a track named after the larger city miles away.

Jim mentioned Los Angeles Speedway (the board track). Yes, that was it's actual name, though it often gets referrred to retroactively as "Beverly Hills Speedway".

When I was 11 years old and sitting in the stands at Riverside International Raceway and Ascot Park, I knew they were in Edgemont and Los Angeles...because I looked at maps

I'm anticipating yet another post on how Ontario Motor Speedway is underneath the Ontario Mills Mall That is the one of the most persistent of all track location fallacies.

[Hoofhearted]

Thank you for the education. I do know a number of people who, despite your facts, will insist that Ascot is in Gardena. I was away when Ontario came into being and returned to Riverside after its demise. Had I been asked its location I would have said Fontana but it also looks as if it could be Ontario. The boundaries have moved so much.
The RIR was always in Edgemont. Everyone who was in Riverside before its inception knew that. I remember as a child hearing a neighbor telling my Dad that when you fell on hard times you moved to West Riverside (now Rubidoux. The change of name hasn't improved things much) and when the bottom fell out of your world you moved to Sunnymead/Edgemont. I'm now wondering if Sunnymead/Edgemont had actual boundaries at the time the raceway was built? Or were the names a loose description of an area?

[JT2018]

The Ontario Mills Mall is beside the area of where the Ontario Motor Speedway used to be (or to place it better in plain english), Ontario Mills would have been across the street from OMS

[Hoofhearted]

I was in Cathederal city today and on the way back as I was going through Moreno Valley I thought of this thread. I got a surprise when I approached Day St. Right beside the The Day St. sign was a Riverside cith limit sign. I'm now wondering where the raceway is now located?

[Duc-Man]

I had a look into vanished race-tracks that hosted races of the can-am a while ago. It doesn't matter if we talk about Riverside, Bridgehampton, Edmonton, Ontario Motor Speedway or some place some of us never heard about. I allways wonder: when somebody buys a race-track and converts it into a residential area like Riverside or a golf-course like The Bridge, why can't they keep the track (as in: the strip of tarmac on which the racecars drive around) and build everything around that?
Every residential area needs streets and a race-track could give a general design for the mainstreets. Why not using it?

Frank

[Jim Thurman]

First, Jason, thanks on the OMS site. I knew that, but so many people insist it's where the Ontario Mills Mall is. Even one prominent and otherwise respectable racing writer.

Hoof, the RIR site has been within the Moreno Valley city limits since Edgemont, Moreno and Sunnymead voted to incorporate in late '84.

Oh, I realize all too well how many people will insist they were in Gardena when they sat in the stands at Ascot Park, but they are wrong.

I realize that on a few of my trips to Ascot, I did not pass through any of Gardena. And I think that's the deal with RIR too, people usually came through Riverside and never passed through Edgemont proper (by that, I mean the "business district"). Whereas, I came to RIR sometimes from the South, coming from San Diego or left the track and headed South before heading back towards the Los Angeles area, so I did.

I"d like to think that explains it and that it isn't the snobbery you mentioned, but I am aware of that perception. Despite that, the people that lived in Edgemont weren't toothless, inbred hill folk.

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by Duc-Man
I had a look into vanished race-tracks that hosted races of the can-am a while ago. It doesn't matter if we talk about Riverside, Bridgehampton, Edmonton, Ontario Motor Speedway or some place some of us never heard about. I allways wonder: when somebody buys a race-track and converts it into a residential area like Riverside or a golf-course like The Bridge, why can't they keep the track (as in: the strip of tarmac on which the racecars drive around) and build everything around that?
Every residential area needs streets and a race-track could give a general design for the mainstreets. Why not using it?

So little of RIR is residential (and the last part of the development to boot) and the layout was too meandering for that, but it has been done. The layout of the Lynndale Farms circuit in Wisconsin is still there as streets for the housing that was built on it.

When you have to add in a heavier base for general traffic, curbing/gutters, sidewalks...it makes more sense to rip up the thin ribbon of asphalt. As nice as it would be, it's kind of impractical.

[HistoricMustang]

Originally posted by Duc-Man
I had a look into vanished race-tracks that hosted races of the can-am a while ago. It doesn't matter if we talk about Riverside, Bridgehampton, Edmonton, Ontario Motor Speedway or some place some of us never heard about. I allways wonder: when somebody buys a race-track and converts it into a residential area like Riverside or a golf-course like The Bridge, why can't they keep the track (as in: the strip of tarmac on which the racecars drive around) and build everything around that?
Every residential area needs streets and a race-track could give a general design for the mainstreets. Why not using it?

Frank

This sometimes happens if the track/circuit falls into public hands.

The cirucit here in Augusta falls into that catagory.

Lets do this.................a thread to document tracks that have survived in mostly original form.

Henry

[fines]

Jim, I wonder if this is not splitting hairs once too often. I will not challenge your knowledge of LA geography, but every date line and every ad I have ever seen of Ascot Park located the track in Gardena. Perhaps it was poor research of the hacks, and the ads modified for convenience of finding the track, but who actually cares about which community got the tax revenue? I don't see why I should stop refering to "Ascot Park in Gardena (CA)", even Allan Brown does so.

[Hoofhearted]

Originally posted by fines
Jim, I wonder if this is not splitting hairs once too often. I will not challenge your knowledge of LA geography, but every date line and every ad I have ever seen of Ascot Park located the track in Gardena. Perhaps it was poor research of the hacks, and the ads modified for convenience of finding the track, but who actually cares about which community got the tax revenue? I don't see why I should stop refering to "Ascot Park in Gardena (CA)", even Allan Brown does so.

Gotta go with Fines on this one.

[JimInSoCalif]

Originally posted by Jim Thurman

So little of RIR is residential (and the last part of the development to boot) and the layout was too meandering for that, but it has been done. The layout of the Lynndale Farms circuit in Wisconsin is still there as streets for the housing that was built on it.

When you have to add in a heavier base for general traffic, curbing/gutters, sidewalks...it makes more sense to rip up the thin ribbon of asphalt. As nice as it would be, it's kind of impractical.

I am sure that you are right that the racetrack usually does not fit into the planned development. In addition, there are probably a number of people who do not share our interest and are happy to see a racetrack demolished.

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by fines
Jim, I wonder if this is not splitting hairs once too often. I will not challenge your knowledge of LA geography, but every date line and every ad I have ever seen of Ascot Park located the track in Gardena. Perhaps it was poor research of the hacks, and the ads modified for convenience of finding the track, but who actually cares about which community got the tax revenue? I don't see why I should stop refering to "Ascot Park in Gardena (CA)", even Allan Brown does so.

Michael, you?...you, of all people, talking about splitting hairs?

Again, you and Hoof are missing the point (don't feel bad, there's been a lot of that in this thread ) I'm not saying you have to stop referring to it as Gardena. It simply is not IN Gardena. If anyone in this thread wants to say Ascot Park was in Garden Grove, go ahead And anyone suggesting I am calling for a name change for Riverside International Raceway is being facetious.

I explained the date line situation. The same applies to Imperial/El Centro. It's always listed as El Centro, even though it is closer to Imperial. I always prefer to use Imperial, but I am not going to be too hard on anyone using El Centro. The same applies to Ascot Park.

Oh, and Allan Brown has it listed correctly, he has it listed - Los Angeles (Gardena). I'd have to check my old notes, but I might have been the one to get that listed that way (there's no icon for an evil grin)

I really need to check with Allan and see if he's met this level of resistance/insistance. I'm supposed to send him another update, if I can ever find the time.

Surely you have some sort of program that will "change all"

Seriously, I have no problem with you listing it as Gardena, though a positive to listing it as Los Angeles is it helps separate Ascot Park, Carrell and Gardena Stadium/Western Speedway (the latter of which was the only one actually "in" Gardena). Otherwise, you might have three different tracks as "Gardena". But, the fact will always be that Ascot Park was never in Gardena and was always in the part of Los Angeles known as "The Shoestring" (hence the original name: Los Angeles Speedway).

Sorry, Michael, I can't help...that's a crisis of conscience you'll have to deal with, I simply put the facts on the table

[JimInSoCalif]

Hi Jim.

Just to nit-pick a tad, but wasn't the track that was usually called El Centro in Imperial rather than close to Imperial. It was at the Imperial County Fairgrounds, but it might have also been within the Imperial city limits. I am not sure exactly where the city limits are as my recollection is that Imperial was only about 4 blocks long. Whereever it was, in the 1/2 mile configuration it was dry, slick, and dusty.

Cheers, Jim.

[fines]

Originally posted by Jim Thurman

Michael, you?...you, of all people, talking about splitting hairs?

That's why I said "once too often"!;)

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by fines
That's why I said "once too often"!;)

True ;) I would say no, but you are free to take whichever course you choose

I always try to make a point of listing Ascot Park as Los Angeles, and RIR as Edgemont, while Gardena Stadium/Western Speedway I list as Gardena. I'm not perfect, but generally the only concessions are to avoid situations like this

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by JimInSoCalif
Just to nit-pick a tad, but wasn't the track that was usually called El Centro in Imperial rather than close to Imperial. It was at the Imperial County Fairgrounds, but it might have also been within the Imperial city limits. I am not sure exactly where the city limits are as my recollection is that Imperial was only about 4 blocks long. Whereever it was, in the 1/2 mile configuration it was dry, slick, and dusty.

Not nit-picking at all Jim, you bring up a good point and made me re-examine this. I had no idea of the Imperial city limits, only passing by once 33 years ago. I had not even seen a good map of Imperial County showing the city limits, but you are correct...it is definitely within the city limits now, and likely was some time ago (at the very least the fairgrounds were immediately adjacent). Add in that the city of Imperial was incorporated a few years before El Centro, and you reminded me completely of why I have been so adamant in listing the track at Imperial instead of El Centro. The track being listed as El Centro was likely primarily because that's where reporters went to send their stories via wire. Add in the fact that El Centro was county seat and much larger. So, not nit-picking at all. Thanks for bringing it up again so I could do some re-checking.

The one time I passed through Imperial, I think I was looking down and missed the town I do remember looking over at the fairgrounds though.

[fines]

For what it's worth, I believe the track was mostly called "El Centro" before, and "Imperial" after WW2...

[JimInSoCalif]

@ Jim - If you were driving 25 MPH or more and looked at the Fairgrounds, it is no wonder that you missed the town of Imperial. Until I read this thread, I assumed that the county seat was Imperial, but, as you say, it is El Centro. It seems strange that there would be two towns so close together in a county that only has 6 or 7 towns. Holtville is not far away either. There were a few SCCA races held in Holtville a long time ago - probably at an airport. I think some baseball team had spring training there, but I don't know anything about baseball.

The Salton Sea is just a bit north of the area we are talking about and during WW ll there was a lot of military activity in the area, both aviation and I think Patton ran his tanks around that desert too.

Here is another bit of trivia: El Centro is on the edge of Interstate 8 which runs from San Diego, CA to Yuma, AZ and then farther east. During the 1920s and perhaps part of the 30's the portion of that road from El Centro to Yuma was a one lane board road that was placed on top of the sand and at intervals (I have no idea how far apart) there was a wider section where two cars could pass. I read about that in an old Auto Club magazine and Huel Hauser (sp) who has a long running TV show on the history of our state called California Gold did an story about that board road.

Travel back in the old days must have been an adventure sometimes. My Dad told me that once when he was driving a small bus to Bakersfield which is about 125 miles north of Los Angeles that he had seven flat tires. I am glad that I missed those primitive days.

@ Fines - I only know about the track called El Centro and was in Imperial because I went down there to see CRA Sprint Cars race in the 70's and 80's and CRA always called it El Centro in their schedule. That was usually the first CRA race of the season and was a two day show held in February with the main events being 20 laps instead of the normal 30 laps.

Part of that time it was a 1/2 mile track that was narrow, slick, and dusty and often the winner of the main came from the front row. For part of that time period CRA inverted the fastest 6 in the main and then they changed and inverted the fast 8.

For a year or two during the 70's/80's they ran Midgets during the Fair, but then reverted to CRA Sprint Cars.

Sometime during that period the track was changed to 3/8 mile and the racing was much better. I have read that racing started there in about 1937 and I believe in its original configuration that it was a one mile track. I expect that you know a lot more about the history of that track then I do.

The track did have a sign that said 'Welcome Big Cars'. I believe that term was used to differentiate from Midgets which came about in the early 30's. I don't know whether it was used for Dirt Champ Cars or Sprint Cars or both.

The one thing I am confused about is when did Sprint Cars come into being as seperate from Champ Cars. The only thing I know is that around the 50's or 60's that Champ Cars were limited to 270 CI and Sprint Cars to 220 CI accoding to USAC rules. Do you suppose there is a thread here that covers that topic?

Cheers, Jim. And Happy Holidays to everyone.

[fines]

Jim, I have seen countless articles on post-war races datelined "Imperial", actually I don't recall a single instance of a post-war race advertised as "El Centro"! I did browse through the Buzz Rose book, "California Hot Shoes (CRA Sprint Cars 1955-1970)", and again I couldn't find the words "El Centro" in the period articles. There's also the facsimile of a 1960 programme cover, it reads "California Mid-Winter Fair, IMPERIAL - Where The Sun Spends The Winter etc." - no mention of El Centro!! I still recall my surprise a few years ago when I found out that pre-war El Centro and post-war Imperial were one and the same location!

I believe Imperial/El Centro opened sometime in the teens, twenties the latest, as a one-mile track, and changed to the halfmile configuration after WW2. Apparently, it has always been a dustbowl, witness the infamous Ernie Triplett multiple crash in 1934. As for the term "Big Cars", to the best of my knowledge it was originally coined in the thirties to differentiate, as you say, the newfangled Midgets from the "real" cars. Indy Cars were still two-seaters then, but later the distinction between Champ Cars and Sprint Cars became a little blurred, and both were called Big Cars.

Eventually, in the fifties the term "Sprint Car" became established, and only the Champ and Indy Cars were still called Big Cars. Then, in the late sixties, when the rear-engined cars came to dominate the pavement races, the Big Car moniker finally disappeared. To say this was a complicated subject would be the understatement of the year! You may want to read this aptly named thread:

The origins of Sprint Car racing

[Frank S]

·
Some (O/T) HOLTVILLE material.
·

I'll get right to work repairing the busted links ...

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by JimInSoCalif
@ Jim - If you were driving 25 MPH or more and looked at the Fairgrounds, it is no wonder that you missed the town of Imperial. Until I read this thread, I assumed that the county seat was Imperial, but, as you say, it is El Centro. It seems strange that there would be two towns so close together in a county that only has 6 or 7 towns. Holtville is not far away either. There were a few SCCA races held in Holtville a long time ago - probably at an airport. I think some baseball team had spring training there, but I don't know anything about baseball.

Yes, there are several couunties in California where the city that shares the name of the county is NOT the county seat (i.e. Monterey), or situations like Yuba City being the Sutter County seat while Marysville is the Yuba County seat and Placerville not being in Placer County, but the El Dorado County seat.

Yes, Holtville Airport, home of the San Diego Region of the SCCA. Thanks for the great documentation Frank

The baseball team was the California Angels who had a complex at Holtville - Angeltown. They trained a couple of weeks, played an exhibition game or two and had their minor league camp there...until after a player made disparaging remarks on a Los Angeles TV station (apparently unaware that Los Angeles stations can be seen in the area) and the team was soundly booed and reportedly had carrots thrown at them. After all, Holtville billed itself as "The Carrot Capital of the World"

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by fines
Jim, I have seen countless articles on post-war races datelined "Imperial", actually I don't recall a single instance of a post-war race advertised as "El Centro"! I did browse through the Buzz Rose book, "California Hot Shoes (CRA Sprint Cars 1955-1970)", and again I couldn't find the words "El Centro" in the period articles. There's also the facsimile of a 1960 programme cover, it reads "California Mid-Winter Fair, IMPERIAL - Where The Sun Spends The Winter etc." - no mention of El Centro!! I still recall my surprise a few years ago when I found out that pre-war El Centro and post-war Imperial were one and the same location!

I believe Imperial/El Centro opened sometime in the teens, twenties the latest, as a one-mile track, and changed to the halfmile configuration after WW2.

Well, Buzz got it right. And, of course, the program is going to read Imperial...because whoever put it together knew better , but virtually every publication in the 70's had it as "El Centro". There were some that had Imperial, but it always seemed to be more an exception than rule.

As with virtually all fairgrounds, the track was likely built originally for horses. Unlike Galt, I have no idea what year it was built. When it was in it's 30's configuration, with the high banking, it clearly was not for horses ;)

And, yes, dust and rutting were often issues at Imperial.

The track is still in use during a Winter only season (due to the heat) for local Stock Cars. When I was growing up in San Diego, there were Imperial Valley drivers that would regularly compete at Cajon Speedway, especially since Imperial raced bi-weekly then. Ahh, Eddie Glen Reed, Rick Hilfiker, Sam Hickingbottom...

And to keep Michael from nodding off, there was one El Centro resident who was a regular in open wheel with the SDRA - Billy Enz. Know of him?

[fines]

Nope. To be honest, I don't think I've ever heard of SDRA either, must be rather recent stuff.

I was also surprised to hear Imperial had "high banking" in the thirties - you're not perchance confusing tracks here, are you?;)

[JimInSoCalif]

Originally posted by fines
I believe Imperial/El Centro opened sometime in the teens, twenties the latest, as a one-mile track, and changed to the halfmile configuration after WW2. Apparently, it has always been a dustbowl, witness the infamous Ernie Triplett multiple crash in 1934. As for the term "Big Cars", to the best of my knowledge it was originally coined in the thirties to differentiate, as you say, the newfangled Midgets from the "real" cars. Indy Cars were still two-seaters then, but later the distinction between Champ Cars and Sprint Cars became a little blurred, and both were called Big Cars.

Eventually, in the fifties the term "Sprint Car" became established, and only the Champ and Indy Cars were still called Big Cars. Then, in the late sixties, when the rear-engined cars came to dominate the pavement races, the Big Car moniker finally disappeared. To say this was a complicated subject would be the understatement of the year! You may want to read this aptly named thread:

The origins of Sprint Car racing

I had no idea that racing at Imperial/El Centro went back so far. I guess that makes a good argument for building race tracks on county fairgrounds - they seldom get plowed under to build housing or a shopping mall. I attended a lot of dirt track races in the 70s and 80s but not many were held in the day time. I remember on day race at Ascot in the late 60's and all of the others were at tracks that did not have lighting for night races and most of them were dustbowls, especially one that I saw at the Oklahoma City Fairgrounds which was worse than Imperial/El Centro.

As always, thanks for all of the interesting information. I thought maybe I was the only one confused about Big Cars/Champ Cars/Sprint Cars, but I see that it is indeed a complicated topic. Thanks for providing the link to thread - it is a very interesting one.

Another term that can be confusing is 'Super Modified'. That seems to be different at almost all tracks that run races for cars with that name - all the way from cut down 1930s coupes to those crazy offset cars raced at Oswego and there are, or at least were, similar offset cars but with wings raced in California's Central Valley.

Happy New Year. Jim.

[HistoricMustang]

Originally posted by Jim Thurman

Cajon Speedway,

Henry

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by fines
Nope. To be honest, I don't think I've ever heard of SDRA either, must be rather recent stuff.

I was also surprised to hear Imperial had "high banking" in the thirties - you're not perchance confusing tracks here, are you?;)

The SDRA ceased to be in 1973. For more, check out the South Bay Speedway thread.

As far as Imperial being banked in the 30's, the only photo I had seen labelled as Imperial showed a banked track. Considering how many mislabelled photos there have been though...

So, it wouldn't be me confusing it, but basing it on someone else who was confusing it ;)

[WGD706]

The "Legends of Riverside" has become a must do, exclusive event featuring racing films, documentaries, never before seen racing footage, fine food, race car displays and the opportunity to hear the tales of past races from the guys who drove in them.

From Formula 5000, the open wheel cars of the '60s and '70s, unlimited horsepower Can Am cars, Indy cars and Ferraris, Maseratis and the famed California built Scarabs, these guys drove them all and have they got tales to tell.

Plus the "Cannonball Run" competitors, with even more amazing stories of those flat out drives across the country; the stuff movies are made of; disguised as nuns or hospital patients; evading the police and dodging road hazards and traffic jams.

This year, the "Legends of Riverside" will be honoring the drivers of the "Times Grand Prix" of '58 and '59, including Dan Gurney, Bruce Kessler, Carroll Shelby, Bill Krause, Joe Playan, Scooter Patrick, John Fitch, Stirling Moss, Peter Brock, Bob Bondurant, Andy Porterfield, Augie Pabst, Tony Settember and the Seattle Team Empire group of George Keck, Tom Meehan, Ralph Ormsbee and Pete Lovely.

The Formula 5000 crowd includes 1968 Champ Tony Adamowicz and Eric Haga, Jerry Entin, Stuart Forbes Robinson, Davey Jordan and Skeeter McKitterick. And from the USRRC, Indy Car and Can Am ranks, you'll meet Jerry Grant, Bill Vukovich, Elliot Forbes Robinson, John Morton, Lothar Motschenbacher, Bob Bondurant and Oscar Koveleski, founder of the Polish Racing Drivers of America.

For you Corvette fans, Hall of Famers Dick Guldstrand and Doug Hooper will be there. Other invitees, as yet unconfirmed, include George Follmer, Parnelli Jones, Sam Posey and Jay Leno. Plus authors, artists and photographers like Wally Wyss, Allen Kuhn, Rick Rucker, Dave Friedman, Pete Lyons, Will Edgar and Peter Bryant will be on hand showing off their art and photos or autographing their books. Want to know more about these guys, visit www.legendsofriverside.com. Emcee for the event is such a big name that we can't announce it yet, but be assured you'll be impressed.

Films you'll see include Paul Newman's "Winning" with a special "Tribute to Paul Newman" from his racing friends; the Times Grand Prix broadcast with Phil Hill as commentator as part of "Phil Hill Remembered", Pete Lyons "Can Am Thunder", introduced by the legendary Can Am historian Pete Lyons himself, with a commentary by many of the drivers, "The Racing Scene", the James Garner documentary featuring Scooter Patrick and Davey Jordan and introduced by the writer, Will Edgar, "The Making of LeMans" from filmmaker Michael Keyser, "Gumball Rally", Hollywood's humorous depiction of the "Cannonball Run" and "Sound of Speed", the award winning Bruce Kessler documentary of a test session of Lance Reventlow's Formula One car. The complete schedule can be seen at www.legendsofriverside.com

We'll be presenting awards that include the "Lifetime Achievement Award For Contributions To Riverside Raceway", the "Lee Iacocca" award and, "Special Riverside Raceway Competitors Awards, all to those who raced or otherwise helped make Riverside Raceway happen.

Friday night's buffet dinner, Saturday luncheon, Saturday evening's "Memories of Riverside" dinner and Hall of Fame Inductions and Sunday brunch are all part of this exclusive happening, taking place inside the Riverside International Automotive Museum, surrounded by numerous exotic and unusual cars.

Most importantly, all proceeds from this inaugural event will go to charities including the Parkinson's Institute, the Lee Iacocca Foundation, "Hole In the Wall" Camps and the CHP 11-99 Foundation. Our silent auction features one of a kind memorabilia, much of autographed specially for this event.

March 27-29, 2009

[Frank S]

The latest Legends newsletter:
http://www.legendsof...newsletter2.htm

[Mikesatterfield]

I know it is an old post, but we ran across it and thought we would drop you a note. M&P has released a few new shirts in our lost race track series including three Riverside Shirts, Ontario Motor Speedway, and more. www.morgansandphillips.com

[oldtransamdriver]

Parnelli Jones will be the honoree at the next "Legends" March 2011. Will definitely try to get to that one.

Robert Barg

[JT2018]

I thought I would add what the property looks like now even though there is nothing left of the old track

RIR 2012

such a sad sight to see

[raceannouncer2003]

I thought I would add what the property looks like now even though there is nothing left of the old track

RIR 2012

such a sad sight to see

Just above where it says "Moreno Valley Mall - Riverside International Raceway", there is a Costco. To the right of that is, I believe, the hotel we stayed at for the 2010 Legends of Riverside. They said there that they thought the hotel was in the site of the esses. Martin Rudow walked south of there and thought he could see where the pits would have been.

Vince H.

[Jim Thurman]

I thought I would add what the property looks like now even though there is nothing left of the old track

RIR 2012

such a sad sight to see

Yes, it is...but no shock. Significant portions of it were still visible and unbuilt upon for many years after some reported the opposite, which also isn't unusual when it comes to raceways.

Edited by Jim Thurman, 09 February 2012 - 17:08.

[HistoricMustang]

Sad, very sad.

Henry

[Obster]

That's incredible...when I was there in the early 80's it was still out in the Boondocks...

[Obster]

http://home.roadrunn...s/riroverla.jpg

If you take a look at this drawing you can place a lot of the track details in the overhead view.
The only remaining undeveloped area seems to be right outside turn nine.
Amazing!

[JT2018]

I know it has been a while since a posting of RIR on here, I just found on Bing how much the track property has changed in 2012

 

Notice near the corner of Day and Eucalyptus, Robertson Cement is closed and demolished

 

I'm not sure if there are any other changes but take a look for yourself https://www.bing.com...V=1&form=S00027

[JT2018]

I found a great site where you can look at RIR and see the difference between then and now:

 

http://historicaeria...lon=-117.272556

 

At least where Joe Weatherly crashed in T6 is part of the parking lot

[E1pix]

I had a look into vanished race-tracks that hosted races of the can-am a while ago. It doesn't matter if we talk about Riverside, Bridgehampton, Edmonton, Ontario Motor Speedway or some place some of us never heard about. I allways wonder: when somebody buys a race-track and converts it into a residential area like Riverside or a golf-course like The Bridge, why can't they keep the track (as in: the strip of tarmac on which the racecars drive around) and build everything around that?
Every residential area needs streets and a race-track could give a general design for the mainstreets. Why not using it?

Frank

In the '60s, there was a road course named Lynndale Farms about 25 miles west of Milwaukee, Wisconsin. It also became a subdivision but grid starting markers and other features were left intact for decades. I haven't been there in a while but last I heard signs of a track closed nearly 50 years still existed.

Maybe an hour south in Lynndale, in northern Illinois, lie the mostly-intact remains of Meadowdale Raceway. It's now a park and on my hit list next time through there.

[JT2018]

Wow, it has been over 7 years since there was a post added to this thread, well here are some things going on:

 

There has been a Wikipedia page dedicated to RIR and I've helped out a lot on that section under username TVSRR: http://en.wikipedia....ational_Raceway

There has also been a Facebook page dedicated to Riverside: http://www.facebook....iversideraceway

 

2 items of sadness

1. The Robertson Concrete is no more, it has become a Unocal 76

2. Back on January 22 of this year, we lost Frank S, he will be missed by all and hope heaven has a version of Riverside for him do have some fun on weather its racing or flagging turn 7.

 

Jason