99 replies to this topic

[mindprobe]

Could you guys tell me the top speed of the following cars used in the 1937 season? i would like the speed in 1937.

ERA C
ERA B
Maserati 6CM
ALfa Monza 2.3L
Mercedes W125 normal version
Mercedes W125 streamliner
Mercedes W25K-DAB streamliner used in Avus
Auto Union C normal version
Auto Union C streamliner
Maserati 8CM
Maserati 6C-34
Alfa 12C-36 4.1L
Alfa 8C-35 3.8L
Mercedes SSK 7.1L
Bugatti T35B 2.3L
Miller-Offy used in the vanderbilt cup
Alfa 12C-37 4.5L
Delahaye 135
Maserati 4CM
MG K3 Magnette

And another thing, in the mercedes and auto union the diferences between the streamliners and the normal cars was just bodywork or also engine power?

Thanks!

[Gary Davies]

OK, here's a start. Setright in "The Grand Prix" claimed the W125 (normal bodywork) was timed at 193mph during the 1937 Belgian Grand Prix at Spa.

He said that driving it at that speed "demanded the utmost discretion" which I thought was nicely put.

Vanwall.

[mindprobe]

Thanks Vanwall!

No one else want's to help me?

[dbw]

a t35b[single cam/supercharged] would reach 125 mph in the early thirties....by '37 with better fuels and tuning[changing blower drive ratio,final drive etc] it might nudge 130.....but by then they were hopelessly outdated......a twincam t51 was a better bet for the keen privateer...even a t59 was at best a stopgap...barely 140 mph in the late '30s.

[Hans Etzrodt]

The Mercedes 'Streamliners' reached 240 mph on the Avus straights and overtaking had therefore become a dlicate matter.

[ry6]

The cars of the titans in the 1930's are my favourites of all time - the Mercs, the Auto Unions and the Bimotore Alfas for instance.
Their brave drivers are my heroes.

I read somewhere that not until the time of the turbo F1 cars (1980's ?) was their top speed bettered.

I am however a little sceptical. Only a little but the nagging doubt exists.

On the early cine footages I have seen these huge cars appeared to accelerate rather slowly, or should I say slower than expected, so if their claimed top speeds are true maybe they needed long long straights to achieve these claimed speeds.

Were the stopwatches of the day a little "supercharged"?

I like to believe that the 190 mph speeds were true but were they?

Sometimes I have divided race distances by race times, for instance a high speed track like Tripoli, to see if the average speeds were right AND they were.

How did early tyres and brakes cope with these high speeds?

Any takers?

Well I have seen photos of the Auto Union tyres shredding and from press reports this appeared to be a regular occurance.

[MichaelJP]

The 30's cars did accelerate slowly from low speeds by today's standards, mainly because wheelspin was such a problem. With circuits like Tripoli, Avus and Spa the straights were so long that the high speeds could still be reached. The drivers must have had nerves of steel though. No helmets, no seat belts, no protection, and such speeds along narrow, tree-lined roads. It is amazing that fatalities were comparatively rare in that era.

From what I've read, tyres were a constant problem, and would quite often require changing during a race.

- MichaelJP

[fines]

Adriano Cimarosti has detailed top speeds for various cars in his books, but I'm afraid these are probably not very accurate (claimed by the manufacturers?

1937 Mercedes-Benz W125: 320 kph
1937 Alfa Romeo 12C: 310 kph
1936 Mercedes-Benz W25E: 315 kph
1936 Bugatti 50B: 260 kph
1936 Auto Union C: 300 kph
1936 Alfa Romeo 12C: 290 kph
1935 Trossi Monaco: 295 kph
1935 Mercedes-Benz W25C: 315 kph
1935 Maserati V8-R1: 270 kph
1935 Alfa Romeo 8C: 275 kph
1935 Alfa Romeo Tipo B: 275 kph
1934 SEFAC: 240 kph
1934 Mercedes-Benz W25B: 310 kph
1934 Mercedes-Benz W25AB: 295 kph
1934 Mercedes-Benz W25A: 280 kph
1934 Maserati 6C-34: 250 kph
1934 Bugatti 59: 245 kph
1934 Auto Union B: 290 kph
1934 Auto Union A: 270 kph
1934 Alfa Romeo Tipo B: 262 kph

[Chris Bloom]

I'm not sure about the top speed but I know the power outputs of the Mercedes and Auto Unions in the thirties were somewhere over 500bhp and were not bettered by a Grand Prix car till the turbo era in the eighties.

As a matter of interest, correct me if I'm wrong, it was also the last time untill 2000 that two German manufacturers raced each other in Grand Prix.

Chris:drunk:

[italia]

Two German manufacturers? You mean engine suppliers, a bit different! The racing teams are still English (McLaren, Williams).
In the eighties BMW and Porsche supplied engines to Brabham, ATS, McLaren and others.

Italia

[Leif Snellman]

The top speeds were of course dependent of the ratios but also on the tyre sizes:
See http://www.kolumbus....ellman/ritt.htm

Take also a look at http://www.kolumbus....ellman/reco.htm for speed records as often modified GP equipment was used. In fact in 1937 as propaganda, the engine of Rosemeyers' winning car at the 1937 Eifelrennen was removed and sealed and then used without service for the speed record attempts.

[karlcars]

My book 'Classic Grand Prix Cars' has spec tables for all the leading cars from 1903 to 1960 with top speeds given for all.

[Mark Beckman]

Interesting that the game I am building says a lot different than reports from the time.

My 1938 cars lapping in real time (2.40's) at Reims suggest about 170 mph.

Also lapping in real time (2.11's) I get 161 mph at the end of Starkey at Donington which is what a driver reported he was getting as in difference to wild claims of 200 mph.

I will have Avus running soon and I expect that reports from there are highly exaggerated as well, I think Leifs website says 176 average for the 1937 slipstreamers and with only 1 stop at the South turn, a fast banking for the North and 2 x 9km straights I would have to say that 240 mph claims are rubbish, more likely 190 something to get that average.

[skinnylizard]

anyone know what weight the 1937 formule plied? the type C Auto Union powered at 520BHP @ 5000 RPM. i think that kinda power at a sufficienly long distance would surely yield 200mph+ speeds. i think back in the day they had real long straights too
the weight should give an idea of the level of acceleration though tyres and fuel would play a big part.
i saw a documentary once on old gp machines and there was on episode bout the 1930's.. by the time they were done my hair was standing on its end...and i was in love. there was this clip where i dont recall the driver but he came in and the tyres were like non-existent. they hammered them out and u could see that only lunatics would drive on them tires for so long and so hard. there was like no rubber it was more like hard sludge.....
240mph on a straight in a tin can damn ive been born 70 years too late then.
xxx
www.pi-media.com
www.eranstudio.com

PS. Hey atleast we had Austria '02 what they have?

[Bladrian]

Originally posted by Mark Beckman
Interesting that the game I am building says a lot different than reports from the time.

My 1938 cars lapping in real time (2.40's) at Reims suggest about 170 mph.

Also lapping in real time (2.11's) I get 161 mph at the end of Starkey at Donington which is what a driver reported he was getting as in difference to wild claims of 200 mph.

I will have Avus running soon and I expect that reports from there are highly exaggerated as well, I think Leifs website says 176 average for the 1937 slipstreamers and with only 1 stop at the South turn, a fast banking for the North and 2 x 9km straights I would have to say that 240 mph claims are rubbish, more likely 190 something to get that average.

The laws of physics as appertaining to racing cars have often often been broken - but usually only in the minds of the muttering rotters ..... Newton still holds sway. Mark is replicating the experience of driving the 1938 cars, and those mothers can only accelerate so fast in a given distance; they can only slow down so much in a given distance; and they can only generate so much force in a corner. Add in the state of the track surfaces at the time, I would be sceptical indeed of any speeds during the era which claimed to regularly approach 200 mph. There would obviously be exceptions, but as a rule one would, given the physics involved, expect to see around 170 - 180 mph as flat-out maxima, and that only on the very big, well-surfaced circuits.

But that's just my hap'orth.

[Barry Lake]

Mark

Can you tell me more about your "game"? Is it like GP legends, or developed from that?

I am inclined to believe that your method has more chance of coming up with accurate top speeds for these cars than a lot of published material. "Theoretical" top speeds, based on rpm and gearing are just so much rubbish. I also am suspicious of claims made by drivers, teams, PR people, motoring journalists etc.

However, the possible flaw I see in your method (knowing almost nothing about it, admittedly) is that if you overestimate the braking, cornering speeds, or the acceleration (or all of those), then you are seriously underestimating the top speeds to get the right lap times.

How do you confirm that your braking, cornering, and acceleration speeds are accurate?

I imagine watching old movie footage and timing the cars through known corners might be a start, but how accurate are the speeds of old movies?

Tell me more, please, I am intrigued.

I believe that what you are doing sounds like it can be historically important. But only if it is done accurately, and I am not sure sufficient information exists to do this. I hope I am wrong.

It might also be worth talking to some F1 engineers, who now can make very accurate lap speed estimates of any new GP circuit before they even get there. They have far more information to hand, though, on all the relevant performance factors, notably grip of the tyres.

[Mark Beckman]

Barry I have feilded this question more than once actually! Heres a copy from another forum...

"Its hard to explain but it goes kinda like this;

First you must know lap times at a couple of tracks that are dependent on handling (Donington) and another that is totally reliant on horsepower (Reims or Avus). You also watch lots of film to see where they start to brake, or many pictures as well to see where they are braking as well as dark braking marks on the road. Then you take known car specs, punch in these basics and start testing and balance out many areas such as power and torque, drag CD, and a host of tyre and suspension variations until they make sense in the direction they are going. We had perfect times at Donington for instance which told me that slow speed accleration and grip were in the ballpark, but some 20 seconds too fast at Reims which is totally reliant on top end power and aerodynamics, so I pulled some power off the top end of the motor (still within 38 specs) and added some drag CD. Now cars are closer to real lap times for both tracks. This is a simplistic explaination and its much more involved than this because every change in the physics you make has an effect on 2 or 3 other things.

I just note that some stories of how fast these cars were seems to be mythical because time and distance dont lie and we are talking 170 mph rather than the 200 mph often claimed for cars of this period. The 550hp 37 full bodied "slipstreamer" cars only just got 200 mph. Reims is only 3 dead stops and 3 long straights and is easy to guage power/drag combinations by lap times there. As I said, "Time over Distance" doesnt lie, but people do !

However 170 mph with no brakes is rather exciting I assure you !!! At the end of Reims and Donington back straights you could have a cup of tea while braking and then you get to the corner and try to turn in because you think your almost at a stop to find you just go straight off understeering when you turn in :-)

Braking duels will be the most fun online I have no doubts.

I will try to get an incar movie arranged, its no use doing a replay to use with a normal 67 car, I have tried and you just dont get the effect without sitting next to the back wheels.

How do the cars feel, well obviously something that no one has driven is always subjective but many many hours of film, correct technical physics, correct lap times etc. and experienced real race drivers will come up with a combination that will be a beleivable alternate to what they in fact might have been".


Barry note that it is using the Grand Prix Legends physics engine.

I also note that 1938 GP cars with the same HP as a 1967 car but with twice the weight and frontal area are reputed to have gone faster ? C'mon

[Mark Beckman]

I think I better get an in car movie made next week.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by Bladrian
.....but as a rule one would, given the physics involved, expect to see around 170 - 180 mph as flat-out maxima, and that only on the very big, well-surfaced circuits.....

Coppa Acerbo 1934: Extract from my files:
..... Stuck's car was also the same as raced at the German GP, but both cars received the high axle ratio used at the Avus, plus improved brakes and better venting. Daimler-Benz had three W25 cars for Caracciola, Fagioli and Henne in place of von Brauchitsch, who had broken his arm a month previously when he crashed during practice for the German GP. Hanns Geier, one of the two reserve drivers, had driven at the Nürburgring, but at Pescara it was Ernst Henne's turn. This was to be his first Grand Prix start, nevertheless, during practice, he set the fastest speed through the timed kilometer at 300 km/h or 186 mph......

Avusrennen 1937: Extract from my files:
.....Rosemeyer practiced only Friday and Saturday and his qualifying lap out of a total 20 practice laps was 4m09.2s. Friday he threw two rear tire threads until he had to stop practice with a compressor problem. On Saturday however he established a new Avus record at a staggering 176,67 mph with a lap of 4m04.2s and in turn threw rear threads again, one after doing only one lap. The tall Continental tires were sorely stressed by the incredible pace and by the difficulty of cooling them in a fully enclosed body. Rear tire air circulation was improved on the Auto Union streamliners. On each of the fender bulges an air intake was installed at the front of the inspection windows. Von Brauchitsch was third fastest in the V-12 streamliner with a 4m12.4s lap time. Next was Rudolf Caracciola who did not show any fireworks with a time of 4m15.2s. Hermann Lang who had never driven above 190 mph before had no problem adapting to speeds close to 240 mph and got fifth starting place with a 4m19.1s lap.
The 28 year old Lang had a truly frightening experience when he suddenly lost vision of the road going flat out at 240 mph. At about the middle of the straight leading to the North Turn, after passing through a gully, the car became airborne when the front wheels lost road contact. Quick-witted Lang made sure not to move the steering wheel to assure a safe landing and very carefully backed off the throttle. His car had been equipped with wheel covers hiding the front wheels and at this high speed the air was getting trapped inside the front wheel arches and lifting the car off the ground.....

Spa-Francorchamps1937: Extract from my files:
.....While trying to put some distance between himself and the Auto Unions, Lang pulverized the lap record on lap 18 at 109 mph. On a 1/2 km long stretch of the Masta straight Lang's Mercedes was timed at 193 mph, while Stuck's Auto Union was doing 175 mph. When Stuck's Auto Union had to make one more tire stop, Hasse inherited second place from his team mate.....

[Mark Beckman]

1938 Hans, but when I got Avus up and running I'll keep topping the top speed up till I get a 4.04 and see what it peaks at, should be interesting.

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by Mark Beckman
...Reims is only 3 dead stops and 3 long straights and is easy to guage power/drag combinations by lap times there.

Mark - I'm not surprised that your virtual GP cars lapped a version of Reims 20 secs faster than reality if that version depicted the course as you describe. In fact the back leg from Gueux through Calvaire and out to the pre-war junction with the Soissons road comprised a series of high-speed curves connected by relatively short 'straights' in which the cars spent a high proportion of their lap time generating whatever passed for 'lateral G' at that time...I would guess 'G-forces' which modern drivers would scarcely register, but affecting the car's forward speed even so.

I see Hans has quoted speed-trap figures recorded at the time. In the past I have seen original printed conversion tapes from such contemporary speed trap figures and I know that pretty strait-laced official timekeepers such as Roland King-Farlow and Stanley Sedgwick considered them to be reliable "in most cases".

Concerning contemporary film speed and acceleration - with the generally clockwork-powered newsreel movie cameras of the era frames per second depended to some extent on how much the gubbins had wound-down, or how recently it had been wound-up - though constant-speed was built in, the level of wind left in the spring sometimes still had a noticeable effect. This is correctable, of course, upon projection/conversion to video (whatever) but then the correction level is in the eye of the beholder/operator.... Essentially - despite their promoters' contemporary hype - these cars were still quite genuinely quick enough to take the crease permanently out of your trousers....

DCN

[Barry Lake]

Getting back to the GP Legends game and this variation thereof...

I had always resisted buying, or even looking at, the GP Legends computer game. I feared it might do even more damage to my livelihood than The Nostalgia Forum has.

When I did decide that I should buy a copy and at least see what it was all about, I was told it no longer is made and sold.

So how does one go about getting hold of a copy now? And, considering people like Mark are writing all these programs for new circuits, cars etc, isn't it possible for the same people to create a new, improved version from scratch? And then, of course have 1950s circuits and cars, 1930s, maybe even 1920s some day, and so on.

Please don't point me to a GP Legends forum, I just don't have the time. But I would like to see what it's all about, some day - if it's not going to cost me a lot of money.

[Bladrian]

Originally posted by Barry Lake
Getting back to the GP Legends game and this variation thereof...

I had always resisted buying, or even looking at, the GP Legends computer game. I feared it might do even more damage to my livelihood than The Nostalgia Forum has.

When I did decide that I should buy a copy and at least see what it was all about, I was told it no longer is made and sold.

So how does one go about getting hold of a copy now? And, considering people like Mark are writing all these programs for new circuits, cars etc, isn't it possible for the same people to create a new, improved version from scratch? And then, of course have 1950s circuits and cars, 1930s, maybe even 1920s some day, and so on.

Please don't point me to a GP Legends forum, I just don't have the time. But I would like to see what it's all about, some day - if it's not going to cost me a lot of money.

It'll cost you a fiver, Barry. There are a number of places that still have original copies of this most excellent simulation of the 1967 F1 season, and new copies are starting to appear on the shelves - released by the people that make licensed copies of older, but still popular, software. As a standalone package, Grand Prix Legends is incredible value for money, and as valuable in your library as the reference works of Doug Nye, or Karl Ludvigsen. Except that, as entertaining and informative as a good historical reference work can be, it cannot duplicate, with eerie realism, the sensation of driving a T-81 or BT-24 through Casino corner, or Eau Rouge, or Crowthorne .....

But much more value has been added by the thousands of enthusiasts GPL has generated. Many, many historically accurate race tracks, beautiful graphic representations of the cars, brilliantly accurate engine notes - and now, thanks to people like Mark Beckham, physically accurate models of the 1.5 litre era cars, the '50s cars, and now the 1938 GP cars.

You can't lose.

[dretceterini]

I would think 210 would be closer to what was possible at Avus with the tyres of the day and the related braking and acceleration problems.

A report I read years ago (but don't remember where) said the Bimotore Alfas went through something like 20 tyres each at Tripoli in 1935 (of course the sand didn't help tyre wear).

[Holger Merten]

Originally posted by dretceterini
I would think 210 would be closer to what was possible at Avus with the tyres of the day and the related braking and acceleration problems.

A report I read years ago (but don't remember where) said the Bimotore Alfas went through something like 20 tyres each at Tripoli in 1935 (of course the sand didn't help tyre wear).

210 what? And with which car?

[dretceterini]

210 mph with either the streamlined Auto Union or streamlined Mercedes at Avus

[Marcor]

originally posted by Hans Etzrodt

Spa-Francorchamps1937: Extract from my files:
.....While trying to put some distance between himself and the Auto Unions, Lang pulverized the lap record on lap 18 at 109 mph. On a 1/2 km long stretch of the Masta straight Lang's Mercedes was timed at 193 mph, while Stuck's Auto Union was doing 175 mph. When Stuck's Auto Union had to make one more tire stop, Hasse inherited second place from his team mate.....

just to add that The Masta straight was a downhill.

Stuck did 281.250 km/h, lap 1
Lang did 310.340 km/h, lap 11

Average speed of the lap record (Lang): 175.300 kph, 5' 05" 62/100.

[oldtimer]

Skinnylizard: The 1937 formula stipulated a dry minimum weight of 750Kg. Pomeroy (The Grand Prix Car, 1906-1939) gives the 1936 C-type Auto-union as having a dry weight of 825Kg.

Pomeroy writes that a W125 was timed at 193mph at Spa, and gives the speed at 5,800rpm in top gear, with 22inch tyres on the rear wheels, as 188mph.

He also gives a top speed for the 1936 C-type as 175mph. The W125, of course, had considerably more oomph, as in oomph .

[Mark Beckman]

Originally posted by Doug Nye


Mark - I'm not surprised that your virtual GP cars lapped a version of Reims 20 secs faster than reality if that version depicted the course as you describe. In fact the back leg from Gueux through Calvaire and out to the pre-war junction with the Soissons road comprised a series of high-speed curves connected by relatively short 'straights' in which the cars spent a high proportion of their lap time generating whatever passed for 'lateral G' at that time...I would guess 'G-forces' which modern drivers would scarcely register, but affecting the car's forward speed even so.

I see Hans has quoted speed-trap figures recorded at the time. In the past I have seen original printed conversion tapes from such contemporary speed trap figures and I know that pretty strait-laced official timekeepers such as Roland King-Farlow and Stanley Sedgwick considered them to be reliable "in most cases".

Concerning contemporary film speed and acceleration - with the generally clockwork-powered newsreel movie cameras of the era frames per second depended to some extent on how much the gubbins had wound-down, or how recently it had been wound-up - though constant-speed was built in, the level of wind left in the spring sometimes still had a noticeable effect. This is correctable, of course, upon projection/conversion to video (whatever) but then the correction level is in the eye of the beholder/operator.... Essentially - despite their promoters' contemporary hype - these cars were still quite genuinely quick enough to take the crease permanently out of your trousers....

DCN

Do you think we are playing games Doug ? (that was a pun and a joke).

Tracks are recreated using every detail that can be gotten. My Reims is based on work by 2 brothers who went to the track itself taking pictures, radius of corners and not to mention the local authority maps they got to veiw with all geo information.

I have all that information including all the pictures both of old and todays remnents.

I was a bit loose in my description, sorry, but then again so are you.

From Thillois to Gueux township is flat out thru the long RH sweeper, thru the left hander then brake for the dead stop RH in the town.

Up a slight hill, thru a small LH kink to the RH called Hovette (I beleive), very fast corner then up the hill to the very fast LH which, yes, they would have had to loose some speed but not a great amount and then to a dead stop at the crossroads (Garenne ?).

Turn right and flat out to the almost dead stop at Thillois, which was much tighter in radius pre 1952 and cobblestone surface.

And thats a lap of Reims.

Also I note that for other good reasons, my track is scaled to overall to 8000 meters (we can do that after the exact layout is finalised) rather than 7816 which makes top speeds even slower.

(And for those wondering, 1 mile at 60 MPH in the game takes exactly 60 seconds).

Barry e mail me anytime and I will steer you in the right direction, but beleive me that unless you have a steering wheel and pedals you are wasting your time (about $200), this is simulation not Playstation.

[MichaelJP]

Originally posted by Barry Lake
And, considering people like Mark are writing all these programs for new circuits, cars etc, isn't it possible for the same people to create a new, improved version from scratch? And then, of course have 1950s circuits and cars, 1930s, maybe even 1920s some day, and so on.

A nice thought, Barry, but simulations like this will take a team of 20-ish people at least 2 years to write, and cost several million $.

What Mark and people like him do is take the core of a PC simulation game like GPL, then replace the cars, tracks, artwork, sounds, to create a new era. Even just doing this is a major endeavour and all these volunteers do it without being paid and in their own time. A real labour of love!

I think this whole sphere of activity is a bit like the long established world of classic car restoration and racing, but updated for the digital age:)

- MichaelJP

[Mark Beckman]

Originally posted by MichaelJP



What Mark and people like him do is take the core of a PC simulation game like GPL, then replace the cars, tracks, artwork, sounds, to create a new era.

- MichaelJP

Just an important addition Michael, the physics are changed too which is the most important of all !

Thanks for your kind note.

[Buford]

GPL is really, really, really hard Barry. I totally suck at it. Everybody in the world can do it better than me. I have the best stuff money can buy and I still suck at it. The cars have no grip, even at 35MPH. It is not right at all. But those who can master it, say it is a pleasure of orgasmic proportions. I wouldn't know. I have had fleeting moments, mere seconds, of pleasure in the three years or whenever it came out, and all the rest of the time has been total frustration. I can't even drive well on tracks I raced on in real life.

So I would say if you don't have time to read GPL forums, you won't have time to master even the original courses, let alone the hundred more that have been made by gamers. GPL is like a red headed wife. There are moments of true pleasure surrounded by all hell breaking loose most of the time.

[MichaelJP]

Mark: of course, the physics are v. important:)

Buford: You're right, GPL *is* hard, but a lot of that is down to the difficulty that any simulation has of conveying g-force to the driver. Without that you have to rely totally on visual and audible clues to sense speed and traction.

I think as someone with racing experience, you're almost at a disadvantage compared to those of us who haven't, because you're so used to relying on those "seat-of-the-pants" sensations to help you drive.

Keep at it though, because GPL is very rewarding when you get it right. For the historical fan, it's interesting even to just tour round some of the long-lost circuits slowly taking in the scenery!

- MichaelJP

[Buford]

Yeah, if you can restrain yourself to like 2nd gear and just toodle around looking at the circuits, it is an incredible travelogue of the past. But I manage to crash even doing that. Yeah, the problem is I can't drive race cars with my eyes. That requires thinking about it and when I did it in real life, I never really understood how it worked. It didn't seem to be me driving the car. It kind of happened on its own and sometimes I was kind of a spectator and as amazed (good or bad) as everybody else. When I have to think about it rather than just do it, I am always behind the car. To drive race cars well, you have to be ahead of the car. You have to do stuff to keep it from doing what you know it is going to do, but hasn't actually started yet. I can't do that if I don't know what the car is going to do until I see it happening.

[Barry Lake]

Originally posted by MichaelJP


A nice thought, Barry, but simulations like this will take a team of 20-ish people at least 2 years to write, and cost several million $.

- MichaelJP

I wasn't suggesting it would be easy. Far from it. I am astonished at the work people put into creating new circuits and cars, and the detail that goes into it.

But with my extrememly limited knowledge of the workings of it all, I thought that probably already was a large part of the job completed. Apparently not.

Still, with the number of people hovering around here working on it, if you all got together and got organised, why not?

But getting together and getting organised is always the hard part, isn't it?

I'm a bit like Buford. I've never been much good at computer driving games. The lack of feel totally throws me.

The first time I came across anything like this was in Japan, in the ten-pin bowling alley at Gotemba, a little town not far from Fuji. It was 1988 and I was helping out at Team Schuppan, who had lost their team manager (again). We (the team) went there every night for dinner and a bit of bowling.

They had those machines where you sit in the seat and have a steering wheel, accelerator and all, and another machine next to you that you could race against. They hadn't appeared in Australia at that time, nor most other countries, I believe, because we had team members from all over the world and none had seen them anywhere else.

One of the English mechanics absolutely loved it, wouldn't touch a bowling ball, just sat at this computer all night every night. After about three nights there, one of the team drivers, Maurizio Sandro-Sala came along with us. The mechanic challenged him to a race, telling him a good mechanic can beat a good driver any day. We knew "Morris" was in for a flogging, because no-one could get anywhere near this bloke. He would lap anyone in a few laps.

And he lapped Morris as well. But the Brazilian driver sat and thought about it for a while, asked for a re-match. Within a couple of races, he was winning. Everyone told him he was bull-******* about never having seen the game before. We all knew it was a matter of "who practises most, wins". Morris swore he'd never seen the game before, eventually told us that, after the first race, he realised the track was Suzuka. "I test there every week," he said, "Once I knew what it was, I knew what side of the road to be on approaching corners. From then on it just kept getting easier."

At the time, I was astonished that they could replicate the track so well that someone who raced there could actually recognise it. Now, to people who play these things all the time, that program would probably be utterly primitive. But it was unbelievably good at the time.

So Sandro-Sala was able to adapt to the lack of feel, but maybe his other experience offset his lack of experience at computer games.

When these games finally came to Australia, Shell had a competition with them at a restaurant within the Bathurst track. No-one there had any experience so I thought I had half a chance. The track was the Adelaide GP street circuit. I knew the real track well so, on my practice runs I was looking good; my son being the closest challenger.

In the actual competition (it must have been two laps) I was setting an even better time, then just clipped the kerb into the first chicane and spun off into the wall. I was really cheesed off, because I was certain I'd done it exactly the same as every other lap and believed I hadn't clipped it enough to throw the car so violently. I was sure it couldn't have happened that way in a real car. My son also made a mistake on his run. Someone else won the weekend away, all expenses paid...

Since then, I've never really been temped by the games, because it's obvious to me it's all about how much time you are prepared to spend practising. I just don't have that sort of time available.

But GP Legends keeps beckoning me.

I had a thought. Why don't one of you computer literate people put together some of the great circuits and cars, and then set it up so it just replays perfect laps done by someone else? Then, Buford and I could sit there and look at the scenery and enjoy the old circuits that way.

We could be Nuvolari at the Nurburgring in 1935, Stirling Moss at Monaco in 1961, Fangio at Nurburgring 1957...

I still like the real thing better. All this talk of Nurburgring reminds me of one time I was there with a Ford Scorpio all-wheel drive - overweight and underpowered. I had promised the young lady with me that we would do 200 km/h on the Autobahn in Germany. Even downhill with a tail-wind I could only get 187 indicated. She never stopped reminding me I had broken my promise.

Around the 'Ring it was slow. It had more grip than it could use, so you couldn't even have a bit of opposite-lock fun. The least exciting car I'd ever driven there. A rich Wally in a yellow Porsche Turbo with his blonde "trophy girl" alongside him passed us like we were standing still. Then it started to rain! Bucketed down. Suddenly, our "slug" of a car came into its own. Lack of torque and all-wheel drive now were a big advantage, made me look like a hero. We caught the Porsche, dived past on the inside of him as he was having a big slide out wide on a left-hander, ashen faced. He disappeared in the rear view mirror from a car to a distant dot, to nothing. I had a free pass for as many laps as I wanted from the circuit manager. We stayed out there as long as the rain kept bucketing down, passing everything in sight. Much more fun than a computer game...

Air fares to Germany...accommodation...meals...loss of income... Nah, can't do it again now, had a magazine paying for it back then. How much does GP Legends cost, did you say?

[Bladrian]

Buford, you're definitely not alone in your (current) inability to go fast in GPL. Here's a quote from one of the best 'helper' sites around GPL (http://website.lineone.net/~richardn/)

"GPL, as great as it is, is an extremely difficult game that literally sucks the life out of you. Why learning to be competitive takes so long I’m not sure. I’m of the opinion that although the cars physics model is very realistic, there is still a basic problem that you are sitting at a desk deprived of G-forces, wind, bumps, peripheral vision, and feedback in the wheel. These sensory losses must be overcome with your eyes and ears and like a blind person learns to "see" with his ears, you too learn to "drive" these legendarily difficult cars. That it can be done at all is amazing enough. How much free time you have to commit to this apprenticeship will be the key to your enjoyment. In almost every way, buying GPL is like buying a violin."

That last sentence sums it up for me. BUT - once you've learned to "see" GPL, the rewards are equally great. If there's anything I can do to help you "see" GPL, please just ask. I'd be happy to help.

[MichaelJP]

Originally posted by Barry Lake
I had a thought. Why don't one of you computer literate people put together some of the great circuits and cars, and then set it up so it just replays perfect laps done by someone else? Then, Buford and I could sit there and look at the scenery and enjoy the old circuits that way.

We could be Nuvolari at the Nurburgring in 1935, Stirling Moss at Monaco in 1961, Fangio at Nurburgring 1957...

Well, you'll be pleased to hear that you can do that already. The game has a full "replay" feature which allows you to view an entire race if you want to, from the trackside or within any car's cockpit. There are many laps built in to the game, but the great thing is that you can download replays from anywhere you can download GPL tracks.

I still like the real thing better.

Well don't we all, but you can't drive a Lotus 49 round Solitude or Bremgarten last time I checked:) In fact, you couldn't even in 1967!

- MichaelJP

[fines]

Originally posted by Barry Lake
Air fares to Germany...accommodation...meals...loss of income... Nah, can't do it again now, had a magazine paying for it back then. How much does GP Legends cost, did you say?

Accommodation wouldn't be a problem, Barry - you'd be most welcome to stay at my place (barely 30 miles from the 'ring)!

[Barry Lake]

Be careful how brave you get with the offers, Michael. I do have a lot of frequent flyer points in hand...

[Holger Merten]

210 mph with either the streamlined Auto Union or streamlined Mercedes at Avus

Didn't had Rosemeyer one of the fastest laps ever, with his 1937 AU streamliner on the AVUS? He was travelling arround most the time arround 350k m/h (220 mph) which means he was sometimes faster. As I know the maximum highspeed was near to 380 km/h.

[dretceterini]

Yes, that is what reports say, but I find them difficult to believe because of how much the cars would have to slow at the sharp turn (small radius) at one end of the Avus course.

I think the land speed record was only just over 300MPH in 1937..

[ray b]

GPL DEMO is still free, only one track the glen in usa version,
but there is a english one with silverstone ,
and a italian one with monza too out there someplace

http://www.papy.com/...load.index.html
get the demo plus the speed fix if your over 1.4gig cpu speed
and the 1.2 upgrade
and the vidio patch for your card type voodoo or gfx
it is all on the same page just look for them

btw some deals on wheels are out there now
I have seen MS FF wheels at 1/2 price about $50 us
localy

[Holger Merten]

Yes, that is what reports say, but I find them difficult to believe because of how much the cars would have to slow at the sharp turn (small radius) at one end of the Avus course.

I think the land speed record was only just over 300MPH in 1937..

Yes nearby the top-speed of Rosemeyer, cause it was more or less the same car.

[Doug Nye]

I enjoyed Barry Lake's description of Sandro-Sala working out how to tackle GPL upon first acquaintance. A pal of mine involved in the Falklands operation in 1982 recalled how the Harrier pilots on their way south spent all their time on the 'taken up from trade' merchant ship carrying them, racking-up astronomical scores on Space-Invaders arcade machines that THEY had never seen before.

If you're an operator...you're an operator...

DCN

[Exar Kun]

Originally posted by Mark Beckman
Interesting that the game I am building says a lot different than reports from the time.

My 1938 cars lapping in real time (2.40's) at Reims suggest about 170 mph.

Also lapping in real time (2.11's) I get 161 mph at the end of Starkey at Donington which is what a driver reported he was getting as in difference to wild claims of 200 mph.

I will have Avus running soon and I expect that reports from there are highly exaggerated as well, I think Leifs website says 176 average for the 1937 slipstreamers and with only 1 stop at the South turn, a fast banking for the North and 2 x 9km straights I would have to say that 240 mph claims are rubbish, more likely 190 something to get that average.

Damn - i just can't wait Mark!!

[Mark Beckman]

Barry, the 67 season in GPL is very hard to master, if at all.

The handling in the game is incorrect and the subject well covered now and verified by experienced racers and I could never master it unable to change real driving habits chisseled in over many years and I note a high proportion of experts in GPL have never raced real cars.

Soon there is a 1965, 1955 and 1938 mods coming and I assure you that the pyhsics in these mods have been corrected and the cars are fantastic to drive and very rewarding and a real challenge for an experienced real racer.

My excuse for this "real life" alternative is very simple, working class man with wife and 3 Teenage Daughters, some will understand that completely.

[Holger Merten]

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, that is what reports say, but I find them difficult to believe because of how much the cars would have to slow at the sharp turn (small radius) at one end of the Avus course.

I think the land speed record was only just over 300MPH in 1937..
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yes nearby the top-speed of Rosemeyer, cause it was more or less the same car.[QUOTE]


Read the whole story under this link.

"However Rosemeyer did one significant thing that day. During the fight with Caracciola in the heat he did his last lap in 4:11.2. With an average 276.39 km/h (171.78 mph) that was the fastest racing lap of the pre-war era. As a matter of fact, no Formula 1 race has ever reached that lap speed so it remains the fastest lap ever done in Grand Prix racing. It was not until the early 70s such speeds were seen in the Indy 500. "

The article about the AVUS race in 1937 from leif Snellman.

[MichaelJP]

Mark, I'd be interested to hear what kind of G-forces the cars are generating, both lateral and braking/acceleration?

It certainly doesn't look that much in the old films, with the driver sitting in a chair without belts or much lateral support.

Thanks,
- MichaelJP

[Buford]

Originally posted by Mark Beckman
Soon there is a 1965, 1955 and 1938 mods coming and I assure you that the pyhsics in these mods have been corrected and the cars are fantastic to drive and very rewarding and a real challenge for an experienced real racer.

Oh my God. You guys fixed the physics? All it needs in my opinion is 3 times more grip at all speeds up to the very limit on fast corners, and maybe double the current grip there. If you guys gave it more grip, in any fractions, it would be much much closer to real life. It has everything else. If you guys fixed it, that would be incredible. We will be playing this for the next 50 years if you got it anywhere near right. Of course the current expert aliens will not like it if you make it so us hoi polli who actually drove real race cars can have some fun too!

[Mark Beckman]

Buford, lack of grip isnt the problem, the lateral G's are there, it's the way lateral grip is simulated in the 67 cars that is the main handling fault.

Simply explained, in a real car your radius of turn reduces comparitive to speed reduction, in GPL 67 it (frustratingly) does not.

I was imediately competitive in my first run in the corrected '65 cars online against Guys who blew me away in 67 cars the week before because I could drive realisticly and draw on real driving experience.

MichaelJP I guess you will have to wait and throw it into GPLRA to check the lateral forces out.