8 replies to this topic

[Gwynston]

I'm intrigued to learn more about the Cosworth DFV engine. How could it dominate F1 for such an incredible number of years while other engine manufacturers were introducing new designs? Was it really the same motor after all those years, or did it evolve over time such that it was a significantly different design later on?

Was the "Double Four Valve" just a class of engine, or was it really basically the same for such a long time?

[Darren Galpin]

You might like to see the meagre effort of mine at http://www.8w.forix.com/dfv.html on the history of the Cosworth DFV.

[desmo]

Love the brief history of the DFV, Darren. I'm still not clear on couple of details about the DFV, particularly the Mg block variant(s). Is it true that the Cossie 4WD car had a Mg block?

[Gwynston]

Great - thanks for the interesting info guys.
It's amazing that essentially the same design of engine could be used for so long - it's unheard of these days with manufacturers introducing brand new designs every couple of years or so.

What were all the other engine builders doing during the 70s and early 80s that meant the DFV could remain competitive for so long?

[BRG]

Originally posted by Gwynston
What were all the other engine builders doing during the 70s and early 80s that meant the DFV could remain competitive for so long?

There weren't many other engine builders in the late 60s and for most of the 70s. Ferrari built engines that were usually as good or better than the DFV in power terms, but were often in chassis that weren't as good as the "kit-car" teams'. BRM were competitive early on but the team ran out of funds and collapsed for various reasons. Matra had the V12 that was quite good (and also lasted a long time, surfacing again in the Talbot-Ligier much later on. BUt the Matra motor was not regularly developed. Also none of these were readily available to other teams in the way that the DFV was. This gave Cosworth a good commercial advantage, plus the stimulus of many customers all seeking more performance.

Other engines used in the period included the Alfa V8 and the Tecno flat12 - neither were competitive.

It wasn't until Renault started the turbo era that other manufacturers began to be interested in building engines for F1 again

[ray b]

anyone know about the cosworth's that bolt up to my street car ??
the DB 16v dohc head for the super duty pontiac
the EB v-6 GM motor 3.4 L is this a street or race motor?? dtc???
are they still made??
still sell parts???
how much power??
compression ratio, street/drag use??
what do they cost?? new/used??
i would love to have a cosworth in my
mid-eng fiero!!!!

[H. Eckener]

BRG,

Although, Cosworth certainly deserves a lot of credit in F1 and has a long history. But, I would have to say that the title for the longest history of ultra high performance race engines would have to go to the American Miller-Offenhauser company. The company was started in the early 1920's and their basic engine for the next 60 years was built around a refined verison of a DOHC Peugeot Grand Prix engine. The engine essentially dominated all types of racing here in the USA on up to Indy. In the 1950's Lance Reventlow of the Scarab F1 Team temporarily used an Offy while his custom desmodromic engine was being developed. I don't think it generated nearly as much HP as the desmo engine, but it was certainly more reliable. It is ashame Offenhauser didn't branch off more into F1.
But, what they did do in Indy was amazing. When Henry Ford II wanted to win so badly he threw the entire company after that goal, with involvement from Cosworth, Lotus, legendary drivers, millions of dollars on R&D, and even managing to hire off a few of Offenhausers engineers, they just barely managed that goal. And although we only think of the turbo era in terms of F1, Offenhauser seeing the rules noticed the allowance of unlimited boost in Indy. And once again Ford, the giant, was losing. For example in 1967 the new turbo Offenhauser was making over 1200 HP on 159 cubic inches and unlimited boost. Compare this to the powerful BMW F1 engine of the 1980's which was estimated to be making around 1500 HP.
Ford poured more money into the program and helped with Cosworth to develop the modern day high reving race engine. The Offenhauser had an extremely un-racing like bore to stroke ratio and consquently an extremely low redline. But, with unlimited boost and fuel regulation, the old Offy was still invincible. It wasn't until Ford and others started pressing for rule changes in terms of boost and fuel, was the Offy handed its death blow. Even then the last time an Offy appeared at Indy was in 1981.
Its a shame there isn't more info out there.
And although Renault should be credited for turbo F1 innovation, the Renault engineers did come here orginally to talk to US turbo manufacturers about turbocharged engines. And I really think Offenhauser should be given the credit for the overall development for the modern day turbo engine. Perhaps with some more research also the inspiration for Renault.

[MacFan]

Originally posted by desmo
Is it true that the Cossie 4WD car had a Mg block?

Are you talking about the Sierra / Escort Cosworth? IIRC, the block for those cars' 2.0 turbo Cosworth engine was the old (Cortina era) Pinto unit, made of iron, with an alloy head.

[Halfwitt]

Cosworth made a Cosworth 4WD Grand Prix car (many moons ago), which I assume is the subject of the Mg block question.