46 replies to this topic

[Rene]

Source: http://www.grandprix...ns/ns04802.html
There was a discussion about whether the cars should still carry numbers and it was agreed that it was pointless as they cannot be seen by spectators. In future the cars will carry a number of the nose of the cars but identification will be do with color-coded camera mountings which are instantly recognizable by teams and spectators alike.

What do you all think of that?

[KinetiK]

I like the numbers, but with the exception of the #1 car...who really cares eh?

[MortenF1]

I want the numbers! They can become legendary, remember ferraris no. 27!

[No27]

They can't be serious! They can't be seen on TV because they are so small. And besides you can see them in print if you can find them. And it's regulation that allows them to be hidden.
It's motorsport culture to have numbers. I think they should make them larger and place them in a white circle.

[King Sputum]

What numbers you are talking about? Phone numbers? Is it possible to call to the car during the race?

[ebe]

There are two ways:

--either bring back the white circle with the black number in it,
so that everybody can read it easily

--forget about numbers, make a clear coloring scheme somewhere
on the car

[MortenF1]

What the h*** is the matter with you Sputum?! The numbers showing who was WC last season, and showing the teams place in the CC.

[KinetiK]

Originally posted by King Sputum
What numbers you are talking about? Phone numbers? Is it possible to call to the car during the race?

Michael's phone number: 555-iwin

Ralf's: 55w-hine

[philhitchings]

Originally posted by KinetiK
I like the numbers, but with the exception of the #1 car...who really cares eh?

Kinetik every driver in F1 wants to have the number one on his car It is a mark of success that rivals anyone else

Think Mika equal with david Michael equal with rubens cmon be serious

[DEVO]

The teams (or F1) really do need to do a better job of distinguishing team cars.

[King Sputum]

Originally posted by race addicted
What the h*** is the matter with you Sputum?! The numbers showing who was WC last season, and showing the teams place in the CC.

Ok, now I understand. So anymore I don't waste my time trying to call to the drivers...

Actually, that was my desperate try to be funny.

[MortenF1]

No it wasn't.

[AcidIce]

In future the cars will carry a number of the nose of the cars but identification will be do with color-coded camera mountings which are instantly recognizable by teams and spectators alike.

According to this cars will still have a number on the nose of the cars, so what's the problem now?

BTW, if each driver can choose his own colour for the camera mountings... would Ralf choose pink? or rainbow?

I think they'd choose something related to their own countries.

[KinetiK]

Originally posted by philhitchings


Kinetik every driver in F1 wants to have the number one on his car It is a mark of success that rivals anyone else

Think Mika equal with david Michael equal with rubens cmon be serious

I take it my response wasn't entirely clear. I totally agree with you Mr Hitchings! With the exception of the #1 the other numbers are essentially meaningless. As Mika Hakkinen said, and I paraphrase because I don't remember the actual quote, "Coming in 2nd is being the first loser."

[John B]

I don't get it. I guess you could ask this question for all sports? Don't the numbers reflect the WDC/WCC, which is more purpose than they serve in other sports?

There is some merit to NASCAR's way of assigning permanent numbers (though I would reserve #1 for the champ), and the sort-of permanent way F1 used to do it. Ferrari #27 and 28 were famous, Ligier #25/26 had some history, Mansell's red #5, etc. Drivers are identified with their numbers - look at how Earnhardt was so connected to #3, how his son told his grandfathers #8, the Petty #43, etc.

[mhferrari]

Why get rid of it? I still look at the number if I don't see the helmet clearly.

[nick stone]

I agree, the numbers are pointless. The world champ needs to be recognised, so why can't his car be the only one on the grid with gold wheels. Or perhaps allow him to have a gold helmet.
Whatever, it's about time cars were able to be distinguised easily.
What about allowing cars in the same team to have different sponsors and different colours. It would help teams down the far end gather extra money.
And we could tell who is who.

[andy_bee]

The white background and a specific size would be the best. F3000 had this up until last year (most cars still run it now, Nordic dont), but not so sure about the camera.

How many people noticed that the two-seater Minardi race cars all had different camera mounts, not many I suspect.

[Jaybee]

Leave the numbers alone! If you need help in differentiating between drivers and can't tell by the helmets, then you can have the car tails (or something) colour-coded if necessary but the history of numbers is a part of F1 and shouldn't be messed with.

[Ickster]

My guess is that putting legible numbers on the car means you lose a spot to place a legible sponsor logo. We all know that you can't have that...

[RJL]

Ickster, exactly right.

[tinman]

Originally posted by KinetiK


Michael's phone number: 555-iwin

Ralf's: 55w-hine

Do you mean to say that Rubens and Ralf share one phone???

[Nasty McBastard]

does it matter? who out there recognises a driver by the number? even if you can see it?

noone does, you go by the helmet colour. to be perfectly honest, i couldnt tell you the #'s of half the drivers out there, but id pick them in a heartbeat by their helmet..

obviously its insane to get rid numbers all together. i mean how do timing sheets etc work?

"pink quickest, red second quickets, blue 3rd..." its bollox.

you NEED numbers, but you dont NEED to see them.

[King Sputum]

This phone theory might be correct because before the race the drivers are putting an earpiece. However, at least in FIAs homepage they do not mention that the f1 fans can call to them.

[KinetiK]

Originally posted by tinman


Do you mean to say that Rubens and Ralf share one phone???

Rubens was forced to give up the number to Ralf by Michael on pain of being forced to wear a 2b hat! Rubens' number is actually unlisted but rumours indicate it's likely to be 555-bawl .

[Beej]

Originally posted by nick stone
I agree, the numbers are pointless. The world champ needs to be recognised, so why can't his car be the only one on the grid with gold wheels. Or perhaps allow him to have a gold helmet.
Whatever, it's about time cars were able to be distinguised easily.
What about allowing cars in the same team to have different sponsors and different colours. It would help teams down the far end gather extra money.
And we could tell who is who.

Just like BAR did Lucky Strike/ 555

[Jaybee]

Can you imagine the fight between the sponsors who want to have their logo on Michael's Ferrari, not Ruben's!

[selena]

Leave the numbers alone.

Personally, I do not bother with them as I identify the drivers by their helmets. However, the spectators at the track may want to look at the numbers and the numbers on the car can identify the times during the qualifying session on Saturday.

[KinetiK]

Originally posted by Jaybee
Can you imagine the fight between the sponsors who want to have their logo on Michael's Ferrari, not Ruben's!

haha, yeah. Rubens would get a hell of a lot of sponsorship from the cheese companies!

[selena]

Cheese companies for Rubens?
Why so?

[Dironey]

I just found this old thread because I was curious why so many teams ran without visible car numbers in Melbourne - even Sauber, who fought hard to get #7 and #8, ran without them on the sides of the cars. I hadn't heard about this decision before and I can't say I'm surprised, but I still think it's a bad one. F3000 is showing that it is perfectly possible to have clearly visible numbers on single-seaters, all that is needed is to mandate a minimum size.

I think of it as a service to the fans - a lot of helmets look alike from a distance, and the cockpit sides are so high nowadays that you can only see the top of the helmets anyway (that is mainly the sponsor band, which of course is the same for both drivers). And where can people find out about these "colour codes" on the camera mounts? The car numbers are on every F1 web page, other markers aren't. Even the entry list on FIA's own page have the numbers, nothing else.

Of course I know that the reason for this is that the numbers would occupy a potential sponsorship decal spot on the car, and that the FIA will never allow anything to take priority over commercial interests. How long before personal helmet designs disappear completely, to make way for generic helmets painted entirely in the sponsor's colours?

[tifosi]

There is some merit to NASCAR's way of assigning permanent numbers (though I would reserve #1 for the champ), and the sort-of permanent way F1 used to do it. Ferrari #27 and 28 were famous, Ligier #25/26 had some history, Mansell's red #5, etc. Drivers are identified with their numbers - look at how Earnhardt was so connected to #3, how his son told his grandfathers #8, the Petty #43, etc.

There were never permanent numbers in Formula One. What happened is after one season, I forget which, the numbers were assigned by finishing order in the WCC. after that the only number that changed were the champions with whoever then had one and two. Ferrari got knocked down to #27 and #28, then didnt win another championship, so they had those numbers awhile. A few years ago the FIA begin renumbering everyone after every season. I believe that they are now going back to the old way of only changing only the champion with the previous champion (and his teammate). Remember how Tyrell was laways 3 &4, they finished second in the WCC then never won, so they had those numbers forever.

Anyway as for the topics, yes cars should keep numbers, but I've never had a problem telling the teammates apart. For example in Australia if you saw a McClaren and it was battling for position it was Raikkonen, if it was in the grass it was Coulthard, simple really. No seriously I look at helmets and having some commen sense about track position and who they are ahead of and behind usually helps me nail it.

[Dironey]

I've never had a problem telling the teammates apart.

Still, roughly half the drivers who are currently in F1 has a helmet design with a blue top. That, and the sponsor band, is usually all you can see because of the high cockpit sides. I agree that in most cases it's no problem telling them apart if you follow F1 closely, but I can think of plenty of examples when it wasn't easy at all. For instance, Schumi / Rubens (before Schumi changed his design), Panis / Trulli, Alesi / Trulli, Rubens / Magnussen etc. This year I imagine Trulli / Button and Fisichella / Sato won't be very easy to tell apart, and there are a few others I'm not so sure about.

Besides, clearly visible car numbers is a convenient way for commentators to tell viewers who's who. Compare:

"That's Webber in the 23 car and Yoong in the 22 car."

"That's Webber in the black car and a blue helmet with red and white stripes, a yellow top with greenish stripes on it, and Yoong in the black car and a red and white striped helmet, except it's yellow on the lower part, and has a blue area with sort of a yellow star-shaped thingy on top."

[Pioneer]

I could be talking out of my buttocks, but I seem to recall that the #1 driver in a team has to have his on board camera (the wingy looking thing on the very top of the airbox) be one of the colors in the livery of the car. Meanwhile, the #2 driver has to have a black camera.

And to all you yahoos who think teams don't have a #1 driver and #2 driver. They do. They have to. The regs specify that you can change your #1 driver once per season, but you can change your #2 driver up to 3 times per season (not counting changes due to injury). Therefore, all teams must specify a #1 and #2 driver each year.

[Dironey]

I could be talking out of my buttocks, but I seem to recall that the #1 driver in a team has to have his on board camera (the wingy looking thing on the very top of the airbox) be one of the colors in the livery of the car. Meanwhile, the #2 driver has to have a black camera.

I checked a few Melbourne photos and you are right. Most of the #1 drivers' cameras are still black though, only with a thin stripe or two in a different colour, and unless it's a close-up it's not very easy to spot. I imagine it would be extremely hard to see the difference on TV. Look at these pictures for instance and compare the cameras on the Renaults, the Toyotas and the Jaguars:

http://www.dailyf1.c...day/pic34.shtml
http://www.dailyf1.c...day/pic33.shtml

[TheSaltire]

Personally, I usually go by the helmets...I know the USGP had a guide out last year but I can't find it now....

[LMG]

I think it is a brilliant idea to colour code the cameras. Of course the numbers will still be needed for the result etc. I think it was Benetton that used to colour code the tips of the nose cones and mirrors. It really helped identifying the drivers in some instances.

[maxim]

On F1 cars I can recognize no clear number except for an unusual Ferrari's #0.
Or am I getting it mixed up with the Vodafone logo?

[Max Torque]

Having numbers on the cars and numbers that change every year according to the previous WCC is one of the things I love about F1. If they were to do away with the numbers or make them permanent it would suck serious ass.

I create a photo archive of each season after it is completed and I love going back and see how the designs, liveries and numbers have changed for each team. The numbers especially give you an immediate idea of the teams' progress throughout the years. For example: Jaguar started out with 7 and 8 on their first year, but after that fell to low numbers such as 18 and 19 and then 16 and 17. Sauber was carrying 16 and 17 for two years and then skyrocketed to 7 and 8.
Numbers tell tales better than any caption can on photographs.

For me, that's what the numbers are for. They serve a purpose in pictures and archives. Who cares if they are visible in the race? If one is so clueless as to need to see the number to figure out which one is the driver then they don't deserve to be called an F1 fan. An F1 fan is aware of the drivers' position during the race and also is familiar with drivers' helmets, which for me, make all the difference you need to distinquish between teammates.

-Leave the numbers on the cars as they are..

-Keep them changing after every season according to performance.

[Brian O Flaherty]

Originally posted by race addicted
I want the numbers! They can become legendary, remember ferraris no. 27!

Nope, can't say I do.

[Dironey]

If one is so clueless as to need to see the number to figure out which one is the driver then they don't deserve to be called an F1 fan.

But if you need to see the number to figure out how well the team did the previous year then it's OK?

I happen to know the drivers' helmet designs rather well thank you, but I still claim that it can often be hard to tell them apart from a distance, especially on TV. In any case, why make F1 less accessible to the people who, according to you, are not yet worthy of being called F1 fans? Did you know every single helmet design the first time you watched an F1 race?

[FordFan]

I think they should let everyone have the #1 on their cars. That way, no one has to feel left out.

[Estwald]

Weren't they going to back to the old system of keeping the teams with the same numbers and just swap out the constructor champion numbers with the previous WCC. Since Ferrari won again there was going to no change this year but Sauber complained that they wanted a single digit numbers on there cars because they worked hard for 4th place.

[FlagMan]

Should make the Observers job of writing incident reports quite interesting...

I guess they could always use the style of a well known UK marshal who once reported an incident at a club meeting with the phrase - "The red ****** hit the yellow ****** and ****** off"

(Apologies to any who find the ****** words offensive)

[Breadmaster]

all these numbering systems are all well and good but i don't care one way nor t'other as ferrari will never get 27 & 28 back as there ain't enough cars

[Oho]

Originally posted by Max Torque

..... which [helmets] for me, make all the difference you need to distinquish between teammates.
[/B]

Ave !!!

Just entertain the idea that Mika does come back to partner Kimi at McLaren....

"....ah it was Kimi driving the McLaren but why did he borrow one of Mikas helmets?"


- Oho -

[maxim]

Originally posted by Breadmaster
all these numbering systems are all well and good but i don't care one way nor t'other as ferrari will never get 27 & 28 back as there ain't enough cars

....and enough BETTER cars, forcing Ferrari to take back such high numbers.