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Clisby V6


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#51 David Shaw

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Posted 04 February 2007 - 07:26

A beautiful piece of engineering kaydee. :)

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#52 kaydee

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Posted 04 February 2007 - 08:53

David,

Yes, Harold Clisby was a very innovative and talented engineer.
He also had an artistic knack of making his designs look "just right".

kaydee

#53 Ray Bell

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Posted 04 February 2007 - 13:51

Oh, I thought the hillclimb car looked a bit skimpy...

But the Zephyr Special that was spawned from that idea certainly looked right, even if Clisby had no part in its building.

#54 kaydee

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Posted 04 February 2007 - 22:18

Ray,

If you’re referring to Harold’s Douglas powered Hill-climb Special then I’m afraid I can’t comment as I never actually saw this car.

Although Harold and Eldred Norman were good friends I’m not too sure that the idea of the 'Norhofordor' was spawned from Harold’s hill climb car as Eldred was also a very innovative engineer in his own right - witness the Double V8 racing car that he built, the Maserati 6C that he twin stage supercharged, the superchargers that he designed and built, the water cooled brakes on the Zephyr special etc, etc – Also, after Eldred retired from motor racing he took up astronomy and designed and built what was then the largest telescope in South Australia. This, I think had a 12 inch mirror which he ground and polished on a machine which he designed and built himself whilst the telescope was mounted on a truck diff housing concreted into the ground and gear driven to compensate for the rotation of the earth.

I can also remember seeing the initial laying out of the 'Norhofordor' on Eldred’s workshop floor when it was just a heap of components from the wrecking yards supported on house bricks so that Eldred could get the wheelbase and seating position right.

However, getting back to Harold Clisby and his engineering projects you need to take my comments in context based over the sheer number of projects he designed. To give you some idea, the following is a list of just a few that I can remember (or was involved with in the 10 years that I worked with him at Clisby Industries) –

Wiles – Thompson car - I never saw this
Clisby Douglas Hill climb special – also never saw
Clisby Bantam Hill climb specials – BSA Bantam engined fore runners of a Go-Kart
Clisby twin cylinder 2 stroke marine engines
Clisby Honda hill climb car – raced at Collingrove
Clisby Micro Bus - never completed
Hovercraft – first in Australia - two different versions
Man Powered Helicopter – didn’t work
2 stroke, multi cylinder, modular racing engine – fitted to a motorcycle but never fitted to a car
Various Clisby Air compressors – Single, V-Twin, I-Twin, V4 and Radial 7 cylinder
Various factory production equipment at Clisby Industries too numerous to mention
Various model steam locomotives
Solar powered steam car – never ran
Miniature Clisby Hobby lathes - still being made and sold


If anyone is interested in photos of any of these projects I will post if I have one

Rgds, kaydee

#55 Ray Bell

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 07:13

What a wealth of goodies there!

Yes, the basics of the Douglas-powered car certainly had to be the inspiration for the Norholfordor. Just as a car that Eldred bought with two Essex engines joined end to end were the inspiration for the Double 8.

Eldred was, I have to conclude, a fairly brave sort of an engineer. But I don't think he was above using other people's ideas.

I don't think I've ever heard of anyone else using a machine gun to tamp the earth back into a posthole, however. I gather there's a lot of lead around the fenceposts at Collingrove Hillclimb.

You didn't mention the spider trap for his observatory...

#56 David Shaw

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 07:17

I just received my copy of RACING CAR NEWS , December, 1966 today which I purchased through Ebay, and there was an interesting article on page 15:

JUST IN CASE anyone doesn't know
about this one. Harold Clisby is
rumoured to be building another new
engine. We didn't get all the facts, but
it is said to be more than a V8 - possibly
a 12 or 16. You don't suppose that's
the engine for the F1 Elfins?


#57 kaydee

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 08:12

Ray,

I won't debate who's idea was used for Eldred's Zephyr as I simply don't know.
However, both Harold and Eldred were certainly lateral thinkers.
Harold always meticulously drew up his new projects in detail whereas I think Eldred basically developed his ideas as he went along.

I did see Eldred's Observatory but was never shown the Spider Trap............


David,

The engine referred to in your RCN article was undoubtedly Harold's 24cylinder, 2 stroke, modular racing engine.
It was never fully completed and I don't think any details of this engine were ever published.
I'll see if I can dig up some photos and post later this evening.

Rgds,
kaydee

#58 kaydee

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 11:18

The Clisby 24 cylinder “Formula 1” engine

With the impending change of F1 to 3 litres in 1966 it was obvious that the 1.5 litre Clisby V6 would never compete in F1 so Harold Clisby decided to build an all new racing engine.

This was to be a water-cooled, 2 stroke engine of modular construction so that the engine size could be varied if the capacity limit was changed. (Harold was unaware that 2 strokes were not allowed in F1 and when he found out, he still went ahead any way!)

The theory was to build a single cylinder, 125 cc engine and develop it to produce around 18 to 20 bhp.
Posted Image

Four of these 125 cc engines, each with a bevel gear on the output shaft, were to be attached to a common housing which contained a larger bevel geared output shaft that mated to each of the engine. This produced a 500 cc module and two modules could be stacked together to produce an 8 cylinder 1 litre engine or three modules to produce a 1500 cc engine etc. In the case of the 3 litre engine there would be six 500 cc modules or 24 cylinders.

Posted Image Posted Image
The 4 cylinder, 500 cc module
Posted Image
General arrangement drawing of 24 cylinder, 3 litre engine

The single cylinder engine ran successfully and was raced in a go-kart. Harold designed a small electric dyno which I built but it never worked very well and I don’t know what hp we achieved.
I built one 4 cylinder module but this was never fired up as by that time I was busy with developing cylinder heads castings for the Repco-Brabham project.

The 4 engines were later mounted in a Norton motorcycle in a two by two arrangement but I don’t think it ever raced.

#59 David Shaw

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 11:25

It's absolutely amazing as to what can be designed and achieved when the shackles of conventional thinking are discarded. Thank you very much kaydee for sharing this. :clap:

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#60 m9a3r5i7o2n

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 00:37

Kaydee:
# 1. The detail is very good and the placement of the ignition parts is good as it must be some form of a distributor rather then a series of magnetos.

# 2. I wonder if the internals are Webber on the carburetors.

# 3. Isn’t that a generator in the center of the Vee bank?

# 4. I wonder, since the water pumps are high in the block if the
cooling isn’t reversed, that is from the head area down to the block or is the pressure discharge point just low in the block?

# 5. The Sparkplugs are so close together that it is possible that there just wasn’t a lot of room for the sparkplugs to be angled.

# 6. Deleted
#7. One of the beauties of the V-6 is the firing of the cylinders alternately on each side. # 1 fires and then #5 then # 3, all 240 degrees apart and on the same side of the engine. A very easy engine to tune the exhaust and intake.
Its no wonder that no one really talks about it being difficult on a V-12 either.

#8. On the sketch notice that the firing pattern is the same but the firing order changes due to the different numbering system.

https://home.comcast.../CLISBY_V-6.JPG


14.84 to 1Combustion chamber.
https://home.comcast...ERCLISBYV62.JPG

10.5 to 1 Combustion chamber.
https://home.comcast...CLISBY_V6_7.JPG

7.0 TO 1 Combustion chamber
https://home.comcast...OMBCHAMBV63.JPG

I made several other sketches but they are not as significant as these four and all are about the angle of the valves.

M.L. Anderson :clap:

#61 kaydee

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 04:33

Hi Marion,

The Clisby V6 was coil ignition - with dual ignition circuits. There were four distributors - one master distributor and one slave distributor for each of the two ignition circuits. This allowed the spark requirements to spread accross 4 coils - see photos below.

Posted Image Posted Image

We made the triple choke carburettor bodies (left and right hand) especially for the project and used all Weber components for the internals.

You are correct, a generator was mounted at the front of the engine vee and the starter motor at the rear.

The spark plugs were 14 mm and space precluded angular mounting.

Below is a cross section drawing of the original cylinder head design and also the revised combustion chamber for the Mk11 version.
Posted Image Posted Image

I hope that these help with your sketches.

Regards,
kaydee

#62 Ray Bell

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 11:32

Originally posted by kaydee
.....I did see Eldred's Observatory but was never shown the Spider Trap.....


Perhaps it was disabled and therefore not worth showing?

It was a ring of steel around the base, designed so that a spider had to step on it to get inside. But that single step would introduce the spider to a very dramatic jolt of high voltage.

An aside only. Lateral thinkers, both. And I'd forgotten that multi-cylinder project, thanks for rekindling it.

#63 m9a3r5i7o2n

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Posted 10 February 2007 - 15:05

Kaydee;
I’ve been drawing and redrawing the combustion chamber on the right of the Mark 11 engine. I am missing many callouts on it just due to a size limitation. Is it possible for you to expand the sketch to an 11” by 8.5”? You can send it to me at my address m9a3r5i7o2n@ comcast.net or put in Nostalgia.

The drawing with this writing or at least as much of it as I can put together using only the 1.565 radius and the bore and stroke. This makes the compression ratio at 6.94 to 1. This is without any allowance for various valve, sparkplug, gaskets and other assorted items.
The formula I am using is one from, “Machinery’s Handbook” under Spherical Segment. This requires the “h” dimension, the radius, plus the bore and stroke.

https://home.comcast...COMBCHAM63C.JPG

M. L. Anderson :)

#64 mmciau

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 10:16

Originally posted by Brian Lear


David,

Yes it is the same car. It was sold in 1967 and in the ensuing 26 years passed through 9 more owners. Rainsford re-aquired it in 1993.

Regards
Brian Lear
Elfin Register


Brian,

May I ask please?

Any idea who may be the owner of 6313 now?

Regards

Mike McInerney
Marion, South Australia.

#65 Brian Lear

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 12:59

Mike

AFAIK Dean Rainsford still has it.

Brian Lear
Elfin Register

#66 john medley

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 21:24

Ray
Going back a way, what was your source for Eldred Norman owning the twin Essex Four engined car? I assume this was the Bryant Special which Peter Hawker from Clare had driven in the mid 1930s?


Kaydee and others
I was led to believe that Harold Clisby tried a set of Webers on the engine, was not satisfied with them, and so made his own. I was not aware that the Clisby carbs had some Weber components in them
I bought a Ford 116E race engine from South Australia years later, with a Howard downdraught head and twin 40DCM2 Webers which MAY have been in the batch that Clisby looked at. Those carbs, that engine , and that head are now in my Elfin Catalina chassis 626. In the late 60s, Stan Starcevich in WA raced an exSouth Australian Elfin Catalina chassis 627 with Howard head and(almost certainly) 40DCM2s which probably came from the same batch

#67 kaydee

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Posted 27 April 2007 - 06:42

Originally posted by John Medley

Kaydee and others
I was led to believe that Harold Clisby tried a set of Webers on the engine, was not satisfied with them, and so made his own. I was not aware that the Clisby carbs had some Weber components in them
I bought a Ford 116E race engine from South Australia years later, with a Howard downdraught head and twin 40DCM2 Webers which MAY have been in the batch that Clisby looked at. Those carbs, that engine , and that head are now in my Elfin Catalina chassis 626. In the late 60s, Stan Starcevich in WA raced an exSouth Australian Elfin Catalina chassis 627 with Howard head and(almost certainly) 40DCM2s which probably came from the same batch

No John, we never at any stage fitted any genuine Weber carbs to the Clisby V6.
When we neared the stage of needing carburetors I was concerned that Harold would want to build his own carburetors from scratch and having already gone through the pains of manufacturing our own con rods, pistons, distributors, oil pumps, etc, etc, plus building our own manufacturing equipment such as sand foundry, electric melting furnace, sand mixer, crankshaft grinder, camshaft grinder, nitriding furnace etc. I didn’t want / need the pain of building and developing our own carburetors!!!

I therefore wrote to Weber asking if we could purchase a pair of their triple choke carburetors as were currently being used on the F1 Ferrari V6. They replied saying that they had developed them exclusively for Ferrari's use and were therefore unable to supply us. They did however offer us three, twin choke downdraft carbs which we eventually bought (unfortunately I don’t remember the model designation – but 40DCM2 does ring a bell)

These were totally unsuitable for the wide angle V6 layout and it was therefore decided that we would have to build our own carburetor bodies after all and that we would use all of the standard Weber chokes, aux venturis, jets etc. from the twin choke units that we had purchased. Harold drew up the triple choke carburetor body and had a set of patterns made. We joked that we should have left and right hand carburetors to make the fitting symmetrical. A few days later, Alec Bailey who was working on the engine building with me, came in to work with a set of left hand carburetor patterns which he had made at home in the evenings! So we did eventually finish up with a pair of L&R hand, triple choke carburetors after all!!!

I do remember the three cannibalized twin choke Weber carbs being sold to someone but I don’t remember who.

It was also interesting that some few months after I had contacted Weber that we received a letter from Ferrari’s lawyers saying that they (Ferrari) owned the copyright to the 120 degree, V6 engine layout and that we should cease building our engine forthwith and certainly not attempt to market it!

Posted Image
The Clisby - Weber triple choke carburettor.

#68 Ray Bell

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Posted 27 April 2007 - 07:09

Originally posted by john medley
Ray
Going back a way, what was your source for Eldred Norman owning the twin Essex Four engined car? I assume this was the Bryant Special which Peter Hawker from Clare had driven in the mid 1930s?


John, I believe I got that information from one of the following:

Nancy Cato
Bronnie Norman
Steve Tillett

Sorry I can't be more exact. But it was a good enough source to consider it factual. How's Wagga?

#69 clisbymm

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Posted 23 May 2007 - 03:52

Actually, yes Clisby Miniature Machines is owned by me, Andrena Clisby, daughter of the late Harold Clisby. I currently have posession of the engine to be displayed in the Harold Clisby Museum on my property in South Australia.

#70 Ray Bell

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Posted 23 May 2007 - 04:55

Welcome to the forum, Andrena... your father is greatly respected among members here and, just in case you don't know, was just mentioned this morning.

Did you see the photo of him posted by Kevin the other week?

#71 clisbymm

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 02:03

Hello Ray,
Thank you, glad to be involved. I would love to see the photo! I am collecting any photos, mags, books etc for the museum and would appreciate any if available.

#72 Ray Bell

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 02:15

Generally, Andrena, I don't let people off that easily...

But I'll treat you as a special case. I'm sure you'd know Bronnie Norman, wouldn't you? She probably has a couple of her father's snaps that might be of interest to you.

Anyway, to save you searching, here's Kevin's post:

http://forums.autosp...643#post2698643

#73 m9a3r5i7o2n

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Posted 17 June 2007 - 16:38

I have been making the sketches of the combustion chamber shown at post #61 and the sketches sent me by Jeff and for the life of me I haven't been able to understand why he (Clisby) used a pocket below the Spherical Segment and then turned around and used a fairly high domed piston.

Other spherical segments (Or at least some.) usually start with a flat piston and then add domed or dished pistons to correct the compression ratio. Of course it has been done every which way especially in early engines. Some Millers even put the sparkplug in between the valves instead of on each side, resulting in cracks at that point. All in all he didn't seem to have enough time or money to hire enough enginers to hammer out the problems!

M.L. Anderson

#74 john medley

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 01:40

On the way home from Phillip Island Historics yesterday David Reid and I called through Benalla to show David's "Driver of the Meeting" Faux Pas to Barry Stilo -- he being the original Winton lap record holder in this car

Barry confirmed that he had the Elfin Mono which had housed the Clisby V6, and that he tried to get the V6 back into the Mono, unsuccessfully, for reasons made clear in this thread. He has already had some nibbles to buy the mono...

#75 mmciau

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 03:44

It may be interesting to see what is flushed out about the V6 Mono associated with the Clisby V6 and the Elfin Catalina No 6313 at the Elfin 50th Anniversary meeting at Wayville Showgrounds Sunday 16 August 2009.

After 44 years, a good friend of mine has been able to provide some images of the Record Attempts at WRE in October 1964 for Elfin no 6313.



Mike McInerney

Edited by mmciau, 15 August 2009 - 03:45.


#76 2Bob

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Posted 16 August 2009 - 07:00

The engine was on display at today's Elfin 50 year aniversary exhibition.

Posted Image



Posted Image

#77 Pullman99

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 19:39

It may be interesting to see what is flushed out about the V6 Mono associated with the Clisby V6 and the Elfin Catalina No 6313 at the Elfin 50th Anniversary meeting at Wayville Showgrounds Sunday 16 August 2009. After 44 years, a good friend of mine has been able to provide some images of the Record Attempts at WRE in October 1964 for Elfin no 6313.Mike McInerney


Elfin Catalina chassis 6313 was the car used by Andrew Mustard at Lake Eyre in 1963 and 1964 to test the track that he was responsible for preparing - as Dunlop's representative - for Donald Campbell's eventually successful LSR with Bluebird CN7 which was achieved on 17th July 1964. The car, presumably built in 1963, was constructed to the Australian National 1.5 ltre formula. At Lake Eyre it was fitted with wheels and tyres which looked like smaller versions of those fitted to CN7. Later, Mustard used this car to attack various Australian national records.

Have any pics surfaced since the above post? Also. does Mt D Rainsford of Adelaide still own this car? It would be interesting to know if the wheels and tyres used in 1964 are still around somewhere too. I think the Elfin Heritage Centre websire has a pic of the Elfin with Bluebird.

#78 Pullman99

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 10:07

Mike AFAIK Dean Rainsford still has it. Brian Lear Elfin Register


Hi Brian.

I am carrying out some research on Donald Campbell's World Land Speed Record attempt . with Bluebird CN7 at Lake Eyre during 1963 and 1964 (ultimately successful at 403.1 mph on 17th July that year).

Elfin FJ / Cataline chassis number 6313 was the car used by Andrew Mustard of Dunlop (although later acting as an independent consultant to the project) for track testing. I understand that Dean Rainsford purchased the car from Mr Mustard following the LSR and Andrew's own successful Australian national records with the car. At Lake Eyre, the car was fitted with (I think) 1/2 scale versions of CN7's wheels and tyres to evaluate the condition of the salt. Do you know if Andrew Mustard is still living in Australia? I would be interested to know if these still survive and woukld appreciate being put in touch with Mr Rainsford.

I have also posted this query under a separate post "Elfin FJ / Catalina Ch. No. 6313" and John Medley has responded on that thread suggestion that I contact yourself and also a Mr Tom Stevens who, I understand, was at Lake Eyre at that time.

I have tried sending you a PM but am experiencing internet access problems at the moment although please feel free to send me a PM. Any further suggestions or commenrts would be greatly appreciated.

Edited by Pullman99, 25 July 2010 - 10:10.


#79 lotcor

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 06:14

Hi All,
Did Clisby make a single valve rotary port head that fitted a kent 4 cyl engine?? I know of one that they believe is an Irving head but
talking to an old expert (now 92) he rekons Irving never made anything that fitted a Ford and said it was probably a Clisby??
Tim

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#80 kaydee

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Posted 20 July 2015 - 04:08

Can anyone help identify the generator mounting straps as used on the Clisby V6.

The adjusting bolts are 5/16 BSF which would indicate that they came from a British vehicle.

They would also have to have been used on a vehicle prior to 1962

 

CIMG6262.jpgCIMG6266.jpgCIMG6269.jpg



#81 Catalina Park

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Posted 21 July 2015 - 09:29

I think they might be off a motorcycle.

 



#82 kaydee

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Posted 22 July 2015 - 02:29

Thanks, I think you are right!

I've Googled "Motorcycle generator straps" and there are quite a few examples of similar items.

Just need to find which motorcycle.



#83 SJ Lambert

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Posted 22 July 2015 - 04:43

Ex Elfin Works employee, Charlie Tuckey's a motorcycle fiend, he might recognise them off the cuff........ 



#84 bradbury west

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 14:24

Bump, for more Clisby info in view of the Elfin mono, Clisby V6 thread
Roger Lund

Edit
Tim Murray posted a link in the main TNF body whilst I was re reading this same link, hence the duplicate.
Better twice than not at all

Edited by bradbury west, 03 May 2017 - 14:29.


#85 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 18:20

In the early 1970s I was commissioned to write a story on this project and put in a lot of research, including through engineers who were involved.

Unfortunately, I did the story for a local editor, who apparently was on-selling it to a publication somewhere overseas. I was paid for the story but as far as I know it never appeared in print.

I had just one copy of the typed story and never saw it again, despite extensive chasing. I made carbon copies of everything I did ever after, but too late to save the Clisby story...

A couple of things I do remember:

The statement "a slavish copy of the Ferrari V6" is totally untrue. The Clisby design was finished long before the Ferrari V6 ever appeared or even was rumoured. That they were similar, and the Ferrari was so successful, only confirms that Clisby's engineers were on the right track.

From memory, Clisby had a prototype engine finished before the existence of the Ferrari 1.5 litre V6 became common knowledge.

The project failed not through poor design or development but because no one in Australia at that time had the required expertise for casting the necessary intricate aluminium components. Porosity of heads and blocks was an ongoing problem that took years to sort out. By the time they were on top of it, the Ferrari engine had appeared.

It was a very patriotic project, which precluded having the parts made overseas. It also meant they wished to run it in an Australian car, at that point the Ausper, which also did not survive.

All the ingredients were there, but the time and the finances to make it work were not.

The expertise gained did not go astray and there are direct links to a major alloy wheels manufacture and export industry in South Australia that thrives to this day.

The Clisby engine ran (raced?) in an Elfin car a few times in Australia but the project faded, from memory due to the unreliability created by the porous castings.

I seem to remember some sort of a link to the Elfin car that was tied in with Donald Campbell's Bluebird Land Speed Record runs in Australia in 1964, but will have to think about it for a while (or find the time to look it up) to remember what it was. Same car with a different engine? Same owner? It isn't coming back to me. Sorry.

Perhaps David McKinney knows more.

Sixteen years later and unfortunatly wheel manufacture in South oz has just about finished.Just about all wheels sold here now are manufactured overseas. ROH are the only one left and when Toyota finish here October 17 ROH  will cease local manufacture. About 47 years for alloy wheels and 60 plus for steel. Very sad but manufacture here in Oz has just become too expensive with wage costs, property value and ever ending Govt red tape.

I have no idea what happened to the original  Magnum [Sampson] Aunger, factories. Manufacturing {they absorbed all the brands and inc Globe  wheels] went to CSA/ Mullins then overseas. Performance Wheels factory closed and now makes BBQs. And stores printing paper!! Closed and sold in late 2015. I sell them from the new Australian supplier. Plus the ROH and CSA range as well.That is why know the demise of the industry..

The Performance wheels are still made but again in Asia.Though with an expanded range.

Like all the others. OEM Holden and Ford wheels have been made in China for a decade plus.Toyota kept content up with Oz made rims.



#86 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 18:25

I just remembered another important fact connected with the Clisby engine.

Some of the engineers involved with the Clisby and the sorting of the casting problems later were also largely responsible for components used in the Repco V8 engines that won the world drivers' championships in 1966 and 1967 for Jack Brabham and Denny Hulme.

So it was hardly a wasted effort.

Which started  as a alloy Buick V8 of 215 ci  .Bought by the Poms and used as the Rover V8 for near 50 years.

Though Repco modified the thing away from any real resemblance to the original engine..

So yes the Clisby effort was not totally in vane.



#87 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 18:28

Hi All,
Did Clisby make a single valve rotary port head that fitted a kent 4 cyl engine?? I know of one that they believe is an Irving head but
talking to an old expert (now 92) he rekons Irving never made anything that fitted a Ford and said it was probably a Clisby??
Tim

To my knowledge as well Irving never did anything rotary valve for anything.

Kaydee should know if eithor or Clisby or Irving ever did one for a pushrod Ford.



#88 MarkBisset

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Posted 20 October 2018 - 21:51

Guys,

An article on the Clisby Douglas Special and short piece on the GP 1.5 V6- pending a more comprehensive attempt. Draws together some of KD's insights. Nothing you lot don't already know but FYI

https://primotipo.co...1-1-5-litre-v6/

Mark