83 replies to this topic

[MichaelJP]

I wonder if the knowledgeable members here could settle a dispute.

I often read on forums and Usenet that Senna was killed by a suspension arm penetrating through his helmet and into his head.

However, from what I've read in books by Richard Williams, David Tremayne and Sid Watkins, he was killed by the wheel itself striking him with severe force on the helmet.

I know that this makes little difference to the final consequences, but it annoys me when people try to make things worse than they already are by embellishing a story to make it more gory.

- Michael

[unrepentant lurker]

There is a picture of Senna's helmet with a puncture in the visor on the right side. I think you could find it on the S-Files. There was also a great deal of blood loss, remember the helo shots.

What precisely actually killed him, I don't know. I guess you would have to read a coroner's report. Seems like Sid Watkins is as best an opinion as you are likely to get anywhere.

For what its worth, in modern day motorsport blunt force trauma is the most common fatal injury.

[FEV]

I know that what I am about to write is unrealistic and stupid but I want you all to know that I've been told this by a brazilian guy I met a few years ago. There seems to be a theory in Brazil that says that the poor Ayrton was... shot. Some fans can't believe the official version of the accident and found other reasons for Senna's death. This guy told me a lot of reasons for people wanting Senna's death (I can't remember all of them) and this theory could fit with the TV images we have of the accident : Senna not seeming to try and turn the steering wheel, the in-board camera showing his left hand off the steering-wheel. Also the guy could not believe that a suspension arm had caused the hole in the helmet. It also seems that all the secrets surrounding the official investigation led to numerous unofficial versions most of them I guess created by the sadness of his fans.

[Vitesse2]

Oh come on FEV! Please! In any sudden violent death there are always crazy conspiracy theories - look at all the idiots who are convinced Princess Diana was killed by any or all of Prince Philip, MI5, MI6 etc etc. Senna is well on the way to "sainthood" in Brazil, just as Diana is around the world. Get real ...

BTW, there is a motor racing parallel for this: when Rudi Caracciola crashed in qualifying for Indianapolis in 1946 a rumour went round that he'd been shot. No evidence, AFAIK. More likely a bird strike in that case.

[YOSSARION]

I was under the impression that it was a carbon-fibre upright that had puntured his helmet, and it annoys me that the one fatal factor of the accident wasn't addressed.
We've had corners slowed, chicanes added but the fact is, but for the carbon upright Senna would have survived the accident.
I still believe that carbon should be banned from the suspension units, as it is also a major contributary factor in the number of wheels parting company with the cars. Metal parts absorb some of the impact by deforming under impact, carbon shears.

Anyway, that's my rant over and done with.

[Peterson]

As always, when there is a thread about Sennas death, i recommend you all to read the book "As time goes by" by Christopher Hilton. Read it twice

He has interwievs with a lot of people regarding Sennas life and death. One of them is the people at "Seneca" (an italian company(?) that made the technical investigation for the trial).

Seneca had/has some info on their website, but i cant find it now.

Fredrik

[FEV]

Vitesse,
I should have add that I do not believe this so-called theory. I just wanted to tell you guys that some people think this is the truth. I am not part of them at all !!!! And I am not a Senna fanatic or a complete paranoid either !!! It is just to illustrate the fact that Senna is probably the only driver in motorsport history who has gained this sainthood status you are speaking of.

[Vitesse2]

FEV: sorry! Re-reading my post it comes over like a flame .. it wasn't intended as such, but crap like that tends to annoy me. Like you, I'm neither Senna fan nor paranoid, just one who seeks the truth ....

[pRy]

"The findings of the autopsy on Senna's death were read out in court. The report confirmed Senna's injuries were compatible with a massive blow above the right eyebrow. Pathologist Carrado Cipolla, said that Senna died not from the impact itself, but from a "blow to the head from a blunt object," indicating a photograph apparently showing a section of the front suspension."

[pRy]

The theory mentioned above regarding shooting is quite silly, there are many reasons why it is not true.

[FEV]

No problemo Vitesse !!

[MichaelJP]

Originally posted by pRy
"The findings of the autopsy on Senna's death were read out in court. The report confirmed Senna's injuries were compatible with a massive blow above the right eyebrow. Pathologist Carrado Cipolla, said that Senna died not from the impact itself, but from a "blow to the head from a blunt object," indicating a photograph apparently showing a section of the front suspension."

Do you have a transcript of this - it seems to confirm the view that it was the tyre that struck Senna's helmet and killed him. After all, you would not describe the result of a suspension arm penetrating the helmet as a "blow to the head from a blunt object".

- Michael

[MONTOYASPEED]

Originally posted by FEV
There seems to be a theory in Brazil that says that the poor Ayrton was... shot. Some fans can't believe the official version of the accident and found other reasons for Senna's death. This guy told me a lot of reasons for people wanting Senna's death (I can't remember all of them) and this theory could fit with the TV images we have of the accident : Senna not seeming to try and turn the steering wheel, the in-board camera showing his left hand off the steering-wheel. Also the guy could not believe that a suspension arm had caused the hole in the helmet. It also seems that all the secrets surrounding the official investigation led to numerous unofficial versions most of them I guess created by the sadness of his fans.

That's the most stupid thing I've ever read.
for the guy who invented this (not you FEV)

[Barry Lake]

Since I was very young I always have found it very annoying when people try to avoid explaining the exact details of a fatal/major injury crash.

As a racing driver I became even more angry that these people were denying me the right/possibility to use such evidence to try to protect myself. This was particularly so as I was racing when the "roll bars - yes or no" and "seat belts - yes or no", as well as flame proof driving suits were all being debated.

The biggest argument against releasing details is to protect the family of the deceased/injured, but surely it is better to spell it out then put it to rest, rather than to live with years, even decades of speculation. Often the theories are more horrific than the reality.

Those who seek the truth, which I believe includes most people on TNF, surely would like to know the true story.

The helicopter shots of the aftermath of Senna's crash, mentioned in an earlier post, clearly showed massive loss of blood. If the cause of death was a blow to the head from a blunt object, how was there so much blood? I have for a long time believed the suspension through the helmet theory - only I didn't realise it was only a theory.

On a similar vein, regarding Alex Zanardi's dreadful crash at Lausitzring: he is said to have lost approximately 70 per cent of his body's blood "at the scene". If so (and I am not disputing the fact), where did it go?

Photos I have seen of the medical team working on him after the crash (and it seemed like quite a while before they arrived) there is no sign of blood at all. Has it been doctored out of the pictures?

Many people who have commented to me on the video and photos of the crash have theorised that his lower legs must have been torn off in the impact. Stories I have read have never mentioned this possibility, stating only "major artery damage" to both legs.

Many cases of severe leg damage have been repaired by Dr Trammell in the past. I believe in Nelson Piquet's case, he had nothing left at all of the bone from the ankle area of one leg, that it was all rebuilt from grafts. So what was different here? I am assuming it was the "major artery damage" - that bone can be replaced as long as there are arteries to supply nutrients, but that the loss of this blood supply is, at this stage, insurmountable.

I imagine there must be medical journals or papers somewhere, sometime that explain these things, but why not offer an explanation to other interested parties. Then, the months and years of "theorising" can be laid to rest.

And what about the Dale Earnhardt story in which, when I gave up trying to unravel the mystery, there were opposing statements about whether or not his seat belt actually broke. I am inclined to believe it did, and it was because he had it mounted in a way other than that recommended. But how could there ever have been two statements - one that says it did break, another that says it didn't?

How would you feel if you were racing a similar car somewhere in the world with the same belt mounted in the same way, but you were denied any evidence as to whether this was or was not a dangerous practice?

[bobdar]

We all wish the answers were made available, especially those of us who actively race in one form or another. My personal conclusion is that the facts are concealed so as to deter litigation. It is, apparently, more important to protect the sanctioning bodies than the racers' bodies. It is clear that we'll never know all the facts. NASCAR has been particularly arrogant in this regard, but the fans keep watching.

[unrepentant lurker]

Barry, excellent post.

Senna-I don't think it is in question as to whether something penetrated his helmet, but as to what was the fatal element. Head injuries are notorious for major blood loss, even superficial ones. As we saw from Zanardi, lots of blood loss is possible if treated. Sid Watkins and the med examiner apparently say the blunt force trauma killed him (being struck with something on the head). Someone commented that at the trial the coroner's report was presented. I presume that in Italy the transcript of the trial would be public record, so I guess you should be able to get it.

Zanardi-Don't know but would like to find out. The picture taken just after the crash before the crew gets there shows the car in profile and it just doesn't look geometrically possible for his legs to be there. I don't know. Also, in these kinds of accidents the body goes into major shock, partly to protect against loss of blood - might explain the lack of blood at the scene.

Earnhart-Nobody official including Simpson and Simpson Products are contesting the conclusion that the seatbelt failed. However, NASCAR's own report concludes that this may not have killed him - or that if it hadn't separated he would be alive.

[Catalina Park]

Originally posted by Barry Lake
On a similar vein, regarding Alex Zanardi's dreadful crash at Lausitzring: he is said to have lost approximately 70 per cent of his body's blood "at the scene". If so (and I am not disputing the fact), where did it go?

Barry on the cover of last weeks Auto Action (an Australian fortnightly motorsport fiction magazine) On one of the crew working on Zanardi you can see that the bottom of his shoes are red.

[Rick Baumhauer]

On the subject of the actual cause of Senna's death, I think the confusion has arisen from an assumed conflict between "he was hit in the head by a tire" and "his helmet was penetrated by a piece of suspension", when no such conflict exists.

His helmet was pierced by a piece of suspension that was still attached to the upright/wheel/tire assembly, and thus had all that weight and force behind it when it hit him. Whether he would have died from the impact of the wheel without the helmet penetration, I don't know, but I've certainly seen reports that his skull was crushed above the right eyebrow.

As for Zanardi's accident, his legs were amputated by the impact. Dr. Trammel has stated that he was effectively dealing with a military evac, as Alex was in a condition similar to someone who had stepped on a land mine, and there were no significant pieces of his legs intact to be re-attached. A blood substitute was administered on the scene to try to replace some of what was lost, in addition to a turniquet on one leg and a pressure dressing on the other. The emergency room doctors have been quoted as saying that, had it taken another 10-15 minutes to get Alex to the hospital, they probably wouldn't have been able to save him.

Thankfully, Alex seems to be handling his situation extraordinarily well. Mo Nunn, in trying to figure out how such a horrible thing could happen to such a good person, says that he believes Alex may be the only person strong enough to show the rest of us how it's possible to deal with such an event.

[leegle]

It is amazing what the human body can recover from. I remember once reading of a doctor saying that it was the first time he had cut into human skin and not seen bleeding from the patient. The blood count was really low but he patient would not have a transfusion. Apparently he used plasma expanders and the patient survived.

[Barry Lake]

Rick

Thanks for the informative post. Now we know.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
…..when Rudi Caracciola crashed in qualifying for Indianapolis in 1946 a rumour went round that he'd been shot. No evidence, AFAIK. More likely a bird strike in that case…..

Alice Caracciola wrote 1968 in Automobile Quarterly, Vol. 7, No.1:
"He drove the car and liked it, but then the day he went out to qualify, for some mysterious reason still unexplained, he crashed on the right back corner of the course. I was standing at the rail in the stands, when it happened..... .....Louis Meyer drove me to the hospital. Rudi had broken no limbs, but he remained unconscious for ten days, then for a while was delirious..... .....but it would take several years before Rudi would completely recover from the effects of his concussion."

And here Rudi himself, 1955 in CARACCIOLA Mercedes Grand Prix Ace:
“I did my qualifying laps and on the last one, the accident happened. There are many versions that have been made public but, whatever it was, something hit me on the temple at very high speed. It may have been a bird – at any rate it knocked me unconscious at the wheel. Strangely enough, had I not had the height of the Plexiglas aero screen reduced so as to suffer less from the heat, this accident would never have happened. The car careered on with me unconscious in it and collided with the safety fence at the beginning of the bend. The impact threw me out and I hit my head on the brick track. Fortunately, I was wearing a British tank driver’s helmet, given to me by Lord Harrington, otherwise the accident would undoubtedly have been fatal.”

Here Rudi again, 1961 in A Racing Car Driver's World:
"The road was free. I drove out of the pits, turned a few laps to warm up the motor and roughen the tires. Two, three more laps, I thought, and then I raised my hand. The car flew across the course - and that's the last thing I knew. I didn't know anything for a long, long time. Actually I learned what had happened after several weeks, from what Baby told me later…..

".....Something had hit me on the temple and the guard of that part of the course had said that Caracciola's hands had suddenly dropped from the steering wheel and Caracciola himself had suddenly collapsed. The driverless car had then shot at top speed into the wooden barrier that enclosed the course on the back straightaway. The driver had been thrown out in a great arc and had hit the pavement with the back of his head. The car had turned over several times and had stopped just before the inert body of the driver.

"Actually this accident, like most accidents, has never really been explained satisfactorily. The dead don't speak. And to those who are severely injured, nature mercifully robs the memory of the instant of terror. I don't think I know anybody who survived a near-fatal accident who was able to describe the seconds before or after."

[Barry Lake]

I am sure there must be someone out there who remembers this and has ready access to it, but this reminds me of something I once read about Bruce McLaren. I seem to remember it was DSJ writing in Motor Sport.

McLaren had been saying for years that he didn't believe drivers when they said they could remember nothing of a crash. He thought it was simply a convenient way for them not to admit to making a mistake.

Then it happened to him. No serious injuries, but a hit on the head and a situation that could have been fatal. I seem to remember it was the old Nurburgring.

Afterwards, McLaren could remember nothing of the lap on which he crashed. He was amazed to learn that he had been wrong all along.

It is strange however, and I have had this happen to me twice, that if it turns out to be simply an "almost" crash, you remember everything in infinite detail, and in ultra-slow motion. And there is no fear at all, just a realisation that "this is it; I've done it this time".

It is the most peaceful and stress-free experience I ever have had. And at the time you are sure you are going to die or be seriously injured.

And yet, if it DOES happen, the brain then erases all of that. Very strange indeed. (This has not happened to me, incidentally).

My guess is that McLaren had experienced the latter feeling, which is why he didn't believe the former - until it happened to him.

[Vitesse2]

Thank you Hans - informative as ever!

[MichaelJP]

Originally posted by Rick Baumhauer
On the subject of the actual cause of Senna's death, I think the confusion has arisen from an assumed conflict between "he was hit in the head by a tire" and "his helmet was penetrated by a piece of suspension", when no such conflict exists.

His helmet was pierced by a piece of suspension that was still attached to the upright/wheel/tire assembly, and thus had all that weight and force behind it when it hit him. Whether he would have died from the impact of the wheel without the helmet penetration, I don't know, but I've certainly seen reports that his skull was crushed above the right eyebrow.

Thanks for that, Rick - that clears up a lot of the confusion. It always amazes me how much of the writing about these sort of accidents is unclear, inconsistent with the facts, or shows other evidence of muddy thinking. It really does no one any good.

- Michael

[fines]

Barry, I have had two crashes in my life in road cars ( well, I was young and living life to the fullest...), and while I don't reckon any of them to have been life-threatening, both were quite severe! The first time, I crashed into a guardrail at a very sharp angle, ripping off a front-wheel, and couldn't remember a thing for about five seconds prior to the accident, apparently even without hitting my head. The second time I overturned the car, but could clearly remember every second of the crash. Retrospective amnesia is a strange thing, and I don't know if you can explain everything that happens in your brain...

[gold333]

nt

Edited by gold333, 22 February 2010 - 11:12.

[Lee Nicolle]

Has anyone ever seen this picture? If so do you know who took it and if there are more like it?

Looks like a still from the TV footage of the accident.
I turned the TV on that night to watch the race a few minutes late and the accident happened within 30 sec of me turning on. I thought he was dead as soon as it happened, which is seeems was the case.
Senna being killed in a race car was always possible but not with a car failure. I would have expected banging wheels in another desperate overtaking manouvre. But it happened ofcourse to most peoples disbelief.

[rallen]

I saw it happen live. I knew he was alive because his head moved and wondered if he would be ok for Monaco. I remember the 4 updates on his grave head injury through the TV teletext service. Followed by the BBC announcement on the evening news that he was dead.

As for the image: There was no camera positioned at the track covering this angle. Also it is too high resolution to be a PAL SECAM video image used in 94. Also the sparks don't show any diffuse blurring indicating it is not a still but an extremely high shutter speed photograph.

I remember watching it live and being pissed off that it would now make the race boring since he was out, never for a moment thought it was serious, I had seen so many big accidents (it wasn't that spectacular) and everyone was OK.

What do you make of the front wheels of that pic? a lot of people go on about how the steering broke and the wheels point in the wrong direction. Don't buy it myself.

Though I am always suspicious when you post a pic after your poor photoshop effort! what was that for anyway?

[Glengavel]

I personally thought, in watching the event live, that he was beyond saving when I saw the marshalls stop in their tracks and step away to wait for Dr. Watkins and his crew to arrive. That is not in their nature to turn their backs on a driver in need - unless they knew Senna's needs were beyond their immediate assistance. B²

Someone, in an interview, said that he knew from the way Senna's head was moving that he was dying. I remember Murray Walker's commentary; near the end of the race he said how he just wanted it to be over; I've never heard him so downbeat.

[D-Type]

The sparks are interesting suggesting that the car was grounding as many have suggested.

This is of course assuming this isn't another photoshop joke!

Edited by D-Type, 04 January 2010 - 19:45.

[rallen]

This is of course assuming this isn't another photoshop joke!

Yes its a bit 'boy crys wolf' isn't it! It is a bit of an arse coming to a forum and not being sure if your being set up

[rallen]

Has anyone ever seen this picture? If so do you know who took it and if there are more like it?

There has to be a full set, when you see the cameramen and the gear they use, they don't just take one pic, they take hundreds in a sequence, he must have carried on once he was the car going on, why would he stop?

[DaleMinton]

There has to be a full set, when you see the cameramen and the gear they use, they don't just take one pic, they take hundreds in a sequence, he must have carried on once he was the car going on, why would he stop?

Because his head moved after the car stopped many did think that the poor guy had survived, but there were those who knew it was ominous. He may well have survived had it not been the case that part of the front suspension had pierced his helmet. As soon as his helmet was removed and Sid Watkins saw his eyes and the extent of the injury, he new at that point Ayrton was beyond help. He had sustained an enormous impact injury to the right side of his forehead and brain matter was also evident at his nostrils. Ayrton died at the scene, not later. If he was (technically) alive he was kept alive artificially - if it had been disclosed he had died at the scene, then by law, the race would have been suspended with millions in revenue lost - I assume many of you know this anyhow.
The real cause of the accident has been and will be debated for years. There are some real oddities surrounding it. That it left the track at that trajectory without seemingly any effort to brake prior to impact (evidently there was no sign of any wheels being locked up) or a change in direction is real strange. The steering column could well have snapped where it had been modified, that would account for the way the car left the track (we'll never know though) and it seems more than speculation that Ayrton used to hold his breath for periods whilst qualifying and racing as on release the mild hypoxia used to give him 'an edge' could he have been doing this at that time and blacked out? given what we've seen of the accident both are possible - we'll never know.

Edited by DaleMinton, 04 January 2010 - 22:12.

[rallen]

The real cause of the accident has been and will be debated for years. There are some real oddities surrounding it. That it left the track at that trajectory without seemingly any effort to brake prior to impact (evidently there was no sign of any wheels being locked up) or a change in direction is real strange. The steering colomn could well have snapped where it had been modified that would account for the way the car left the track (we'll never know though) and it seems more than speculation that Ayrton used to hold his breath for periods whilst qualifying and racing as on release the mild hypoxia used to give him 'an edge' could he have blacked out? given what we've seen of the accident both are possible - we'll never know.

Are you sure, I thought Senna managed to break an amazing amount and really reduced his speed before he hit the wall. Interesting about the blacking out comment though, not really heard that before but would that have only happend after 161 GP's and qualifying laps? curious and curiouser!

[DaleMinton]

Are you sure, I thought Senna managed to break an amazing amount and really reduced his speed before he hit the wall. Interesting about the blacking out comment though, not really heard that before but would that have only happend after 161 GP's and qualifying laps? curious and curiouser!

I don't believe there was any evidence of that, but I could be proved wrong. I can understand your point regarding Ayrton's breath holding and the years he'd been racing - its only got to happen once though!

Edited by DaleMinton, 04 January 2010 - 23:35.

[ensign14]

Because his head moved after the car stopped many did think that the poor guy had survived, but there were those who knew it was ominous.

It was a very similar move to that of Ratzenberger the previous day, from what I remember.

About the blacking-out; I think it was in Lauda's "To Hell And Back" where there was a comment that you could get a mini-blackout if your heartbeat went above 210, and there was a hypothesis that it might explain otherwise inexplicable incidents. Not saying that happened here, of course, but it is there as a possibility.

[ebeneezer2]

It was a very similar move to that of Ratzenberger the previous day, from what I remember.

About the blacking-out; I think it was in Lauda's "To Hell And Back" where there was a comment that you could get a mini-blackout if your heartbeat went above 210, and there was a hypothesis that it might explain otherwise inexplicable incidents. Not saying that happened here, of course, but it is there as a possibility.

There was telemetry published after the accident showing him trying to break as he headed to the wall, he did not black out. I also find these 'I sensed straight away he was dead' comments strange, the accident really didn't look that bad...it certainly looked a lot less serious than either Berger's or Piquet's at the same corner and they both survived without major injuries...as far as I know he only suffered bruises, apart from the head injury caused by the suspension part.

[JB Miltonian]

A MUCH clearer print of this same photo appears on page 34 on the 27 April 1995 issue of Autosport, with picture credit given to Martyn Elford. But was this picture taken at Tamburello on Senna's last lap?

Edit: I should mention that the picture in Autosport is divided onto two pages, with the split occuring right in the middle of the right front tire. Bad layout job. It IS the same picture, everything including the sparks is in exactly the same position.

Edited by JB Miltonian, 05 January 2010 - 04:24.

[Der Pate]

There was telemetry published after the accident showing him trying to break as he headed to the wall, he did not black out. I also find these 'I sensed straight away he was dead' comments strange, the accident really didn't look that bad...it certainly looked a lot less serious than either Berger's or Piquet's at the same corner and they both survived without major injuries...as far as I know he only suffered bruises, apart from the head injury caused by the suspension part.

I watched the start of the race in a train-station just minutes before my train departed...

I would have never thought of a fatal accident...having seen the Berger-crash 5 years before, I thought, that Senna would jump out of the car immediately and walk away...it didn´t look so severe to me...my first thought was: "Oh no, this damn German will win again!"...

In the train I heard it on the radio, that Senna wasn´t that good...and when I arrived at home, I almost start to cry, when I read the headline in the TV-news: "Senna dead!"...

[Tony Matthews]

There has to be a full set, when you see the cameramen and the gear they use, they don't just take one pic, they take hundreds in a sequence, he must have carried on once he was the car going on, why would he stop?

This was pre digital, you only had 36 frames or less, it might have been the last shot before changing film, and Martyn might have thought the scene didn't warrent more than one shot. It is a significant photo only because it might have been taken just before impact. You don't always use a camera like a machine gun.

[john t]

As i photographer and teacher of the subject i spend a lot of my time 'photoshopping'. Having played around with the posted image I don't believe that this picture is fake in any way. But i also don't think that this is the part of the Tamburello where Senna lost control. The Williams is pointing at a blank wall. The video footage from both his and Schumacher's car show him heading towards a wall covered in advertisements. The Williams struck a part advertising Agip.
As to the cause of the crash well this has been discussed elsewhere but both Hill and Schumacher's comments from the time point to Senna taking a huge risk by going over the bump on the inside line. Ayrton had told Damon not to venture over that particular bump but to leave a few feet of margin. Schumacher was quoted at the time thus: "On the first lap (after the restart and at that point in the corner) he nearly lost it. On the next lap he did lose it". I don't think that speculation to the cause of the accident will ever go away (it never does with the deaths of top drivers) but for those of us interested then i suggest Richard Williams' excellent book 'The Death Of Ayrton Senna' as presenting the facts in an unsensational and objective way. I bought it at the time of publication (1996, i think) and couldn't put it down.

[JB Miltonian]

The clearer version of this photo appears to show that the grass verge on the outside of corner runs from the edge of the track all the way to the base of the wall, with no concrete runoff area between the grass and the wall. I'm not an expert on the Imola track, but I don't think this picture shows Senna about to spear off the track on his last lap.

[john t]

The clearer version of this photo appears to show that the grass verge on the outside of corner runs from the edge of the track all the way to the base of the wall, with no concrete runoff area between the grass and the wall. I'm not an expert on the Imola track, but I don't think this picture shows Senna about to spear off the track on his last lap.

Yes, i'd forgotten that Senna ran over a small grass strip and then a concrete run-off area prior to the wall. Your point and the lack of advertising makes me think that this photo shows the entry to Tamburello perhaps the area of Bergers 1989 accident which finished amongst the area of the Senna, Alboreto and Piquet accidents.

[ebeneezer2]

I based mine on the way that my fellow workers & I reacted as corner marshalls for the CART Indy Car series for over a decade and watched the reaction of those who approached Senna. Nothing more, nothing less. I called my brother, who was also watching live, immediately and stated that I thought Senna was gone. Unfortunately, my immediate reaction proved true. I don't know how else to explain. B²

Fair enough, if it was the way people reacted rather than the crash itself. As for other quotes like Fangio's (assuming that is an accurate quote), I have to say I'm a bit sceptical. It's the sort of prediction that people only tell you about if it turns out to be correct.

[Chezrome]

Fair enough, if it was the way people reacted rather than the crash itself. As for other quotes like Fangio's (assuming that is an accurate quote), I have to say I'm a bit sceptical. It's the sort of prediction that people only tell you about if it turns out to be correct.

Or... I remember seeing several accidents 'live' of which I thought: 'Oh-oh. He could be dead.' Bergers fireball at Imola (1989), Verstappens fireball at Hockenheim, Verstappens crash at Spa (1996), and Kubica's accident in Montreal, and Senna's crash at Imola. I wasn't wrong. All drivers could have been killed in the impact. Only Senna was...

[rallen]

I've done some analysis and you are right it is not Tamburello.

It is actually on the straight between Variante Alta and the bridge before Rivazza.

Looks like it was a telephoto shot.

]

That doesn't look like the same place at all, the trees are too far back from the track compated to the picture at the top of the thread. I think that pic could well be Tamburello, its just so dark becasue the trees are so close to the edge you can't see the advertisements, plus if you look at the angle of the car, it is pointing away from the end of the line, if it was not taken just before the impact then it may well have been the lap before when he 'nearly lost it' very interesting pic though

[john t]

That doesn't look like the same place at all, the trees are too far back from the track compated to the picture at the top of the thread. I think that pic could well be Tamburello, its just so dark becasue the trees are so close to the edge you can't see the advertisements, plus if you look at the angle of the car, it is pointing away from the end of the line, if it was not taken just before the impact then it may well have been the lap before when he 'nearly lost it' very interesting pic though

As i said, there are NO ADVERTISEMENTS ahead of the driver, therefore it is NOT 'Senna heading to the wall...' I'm certain that this photo has nothing at all to do with the death of the ex champ.

[Tony Matthews]

The trees appear so far because it is a telephoto shot. (Also the reason why it is such a dark and washed out photograph)

A telephoto lens does not 'darken and wash-out' a photograph. Just about evey photograph you ever see of motor racing is taken with a longer-than-standard lens. They are neither darker nor washed out unless the exposure is wrong, or the lighting is impossible to control.

[rallen]

As i said, there are NO ADVERTISEMENTS ahead of the driver, therefore it is NOT 'Senna heading to the wall...' I'm certain that this photo has nothing at all to do with the death of the ex champ.

No, you just can't see the advertisements because of the shaddows, it doesn't mean they are not there.

[rallen]

How strange, I went on to youtube to look at the onboard footage to clarify the above picture and this new footage had been posted of a different angel, it doesn't show anything new but it is different. the crash happens about the 1.50 mark
Senna new angle