43 replies to this topic

[dmj]

Why there are no New Zealenders in F1 anymore? I remember that long time ago I calculated a World cup table of nations in F1, season by season, simply adding the points of every driver to sum of his (or hers, once) nationality. Predictably, British, Italian, French and Brasilian national teams scored regularly, but New Zealand was the best nation overall in 1967, if I remember well, with a few more podium finishes... It was achievement similar to... let's say if Croatia wins World soccer cup next year... (and I hope it will)
How such a legacy was turned into oblivion so quickly? After a great generation of drivers I can remember only a young lad with unwritable surname that made not much impact in 80's... But in last few decades I can't remember any Kiwi racer really made it in any form of motorsport (speedway excepted). What went wrong in NZ?

[William Hunt]

Well they have Scott Dixon in CART, I wouldn't be surprised to see him moving to F1 one day, he's very good.

[dmj]

Damn, I just felt I forgot someone...

[Vitesse2]

Not in F1 - yet - but there's a young Kiwi called Scott Dixon doing pretty well in the States.

Looking at it from the other side of the world, I suspect that a lot of the problem is the lack of a really top-line single-seater formula in the Antipodes. After all, Australia hasn't had an F1 driver since Alan Jones either. The demise of F5000 and the Tasman Series seems to have produced a fairly introspective view "down under", concentrating on minor formulae and tin-tops. Plus, the money doesn't seem to be there either: whatever happened to the Driver to Europe scheme?

[Rob G]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Australia hasn't had an F1 driver since Alan Jones either.

Don't forget about David and Gary Brabham in the '90s. And Mark Webber has that testing contract with Benetton.

[Rob G]

Originally posted by dmj
After a great generation of drivers I can remember only a young lad with unwritable surname that made not much impact in 80's

Who is that and why was his surname unwritable?

[dmj]

Mike Thackwell - two vowells in nine letters - almost as if he was Polish... or Welsh, but it is maybe correct (never thought about it before)

[Rob G]

Boy, if this isn't a lesson in language & culture, I don't know what is! For those of us who speak English as our primary language, "Thackwell" is a very simple, straightforward name. It's the Czech, Polish, and other eastern European names (including Croatian) that we find difficult. I guess it's just the opposite for you.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Rob G


Don't forget about David and Gary Brabham in the '90s. And Mark Webber has that testing contract with Benetton.

Well yes, but I don't think either of Jack's lads can be particularly proud of their F1 "careers"; David had 6 DNQs and 7 RETs in 14 races for Brabham (poor sod!) and Gary took the very sensible decision to walk out on Life after 2 DNPQs.

Webber is still a bit of an unknown quantity and I'd like to see him succeed in F1, but again I think money might be doing the talking. Of course if Foster's were to get behind him ....

And DMJ: does that make my surname (Armstrong) Polish?

[Richard Jenkins]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Looking at it from the other side of the world, I suspect that a lot of the problem is the lack of a really top-line single-seater formula in the Antipodes. The demise of F5000 and the Tasman Series seems to have produced a fairly introspective view "down under", concentrating on minor formulae and tin-tops. Plus, the money doesn't seem to be there either: whatever happened to the Driver to Europe scheme?

I echo this, as I also think this is the basic reason for lack of success. But also, the lack of a Grand prix or even a suitable international circuit doesn't help & no real role-model for New Zealanders to follow for Grand Prix at the moment - all their race winners are dead & Dixon is in lights.
Australia also has Ryan Briscoe, signed under a long-term Toyota testing deal in the future plus a host in lower formulae - I would imagine an influx if Webber & briscoe were racing continously in F1

[Vitesse2]

Richie: I'm confused by your comment about Scott Dixon. If by "lights" you mean Indy Lights, he graduated from there last year as champion and has already won his first CART race!!

I think you're right about lack of role models though. Now if only Amon had won just one GP ....

[Richard Jenkins]

Sorry, about the Dixon lights comment - my mind was completely taken OT by my cigarette!

[Keir]

Sadly, these things come in waves.
NZ used to be a hub for international racing during the 50's and 60's. Now, there isn't the time for the f1 boys to venture South for the winter. Too bad really, they had some great races in the Tasman series.

CART tends to make it's drivers crave for the easy paydays. I can still see the vapor trail Michael Andretti left on his way out of F1.
Scott Dixon, take note, you haven't reached the top until you've been to the Grand Prix mountaintop!!!

[Barry Boor]

I agree 100% with Keir.

But I suspect the main reason for lack of any Antipodean success in european racing (save Webber - and he has had a bad attack of 'chuck-it-at-the-wall' syndrome lately) is the simple one of ££££££'s, or rather the lack of them.

There seem to be so many well-backed Brazilians popping up in Europe every year that the under-financed Australasians cannot look at it.

There never HAS been any subsitute for cash (well, maybe talent, but that was long ago) and that is even more the case now.

[Zawed]

Money or lack thereof has to be the main reason these days for Australasians not making it to F1. That and the absence of a top line single seat formula in the region.

[leegle]

There is a top line single seater class in Australia and New Zealanders like Scott Dixon have shown its value in recent years. Formula Holden is a very useful formula the problem is it doesn't get funding because all the available money goes on the V8 Supercars and Super Tourers. Even Formula Ford gets more money than Formula Holden.

[HSV]

Hi fellow Kiwis!

I agree with you all. Scotty Dixon is our best chance but I worry for his safety in CART. Too bloody dangerous for my liking!

The main problem is sponsorship of course. Our most successful Kiwi trio (Bruce, Denny and Chris) were racing in the days where talent was all you needed. Sadly, those days are over now.

We still have a lot of talent and I wonder how Greg Murphy and Paul Radisich would have done in F1. Paul was supposed to get a test drive with Sauber-Ford after he won the WTCC. But he never did...

I'm sure Greg would have done well in the single seat category but V8 Supercars are easier to get a drive for.

The guy who really could do well in Europe though is Simon Wills. He dominates the Formula Holden races and wins everything he competes in except the recent Bathurst race where he made 2 silly mistakes.

James Cressey has just won the Bruce McLaren scholarship and has visited the McLaren factory in Woking but I fear that's the closest he'll get to F1.

Our country's best chance to get an F1 driver is to build a world class circuit like Malaysia did. I mean can you imagine F1 at Pukekohe??

So I hope the rumours that we are gonna build a track near our international airport in Auckland are true. Or maybe we could build a street race ala Monte Carlo down on the Auckland central city waterfront... maybe not.;)

Anyway everyone keep rooting for Dixon and who knows he may end up with a drive for Toyota in 2003.

[dmj]

A stupid question: why do Brazilians have financial backing, and Antipodeans don't? According to strength of local economies it should be opposite! But if it would be the only criteria we will have much more Japanese drivers...
BTW, Rob G, I agree that Thackwell is very simple name to pronounce, but not so to write

[Joe Fan]

Originally posted by Keir
CART tends to make it's drivers crave for the easy paydays. I can still see the vapor trail Michael Andretti left on his way out of F1. Scott Dixon, take note, you haven't reached the top until you've been to the Grand Prix mountaintop!!!

I wouldn't be so quick to poo-pooh the merits of CART racing. Juan Montoya recently said that he thinks CART is less forgiving than Formula One and that he thinks it is harder to find the limit in a Champcar. Read about it here at: http://www.autosport...=16603&series=5

Really, Formula One is demonstration ground for manufacturers. The lopsidedness of makes, along with all the technology and drivers aids, make it a unique form of motorsport. Other than the pay, I wouldn't say that it is a pinnacle driver's series. This is why a lot of talented drivers don't bother with F1. The money may be great but not every one wants to drive a full scale slot car.

BTW, I think very highly of the talents of Scott Dixon. The series really needed another young star driving talent after Greg Moore was killed and since Montoya left.

[Vitesse2]

Leegle: I must admit I knew little of Formula Holden until I checked out their website. And therein lies the problem, I think... there is no international recognition of the formula and it is somewhat introspective. From what I can gather it appears to rely on old F3000 chassis (I saw Reynard 94D and 95D mentioned) with stock-block Holden engines - very much the problem Antipodean racing has had since the 50s, in that the top-line formula was always a bit behind or completely divorced from main-stream European racing. There was only the short F5000 Tasman Formula when the two co-incided and by that time the top European drivers had stopped coming. So NZ and Aussie drivers essentially have to re-learn their craft when they leave their homelands and because there is virtually no foreign input in terms of drivers or technology it is very difficult to compare the top drivers against their peers abroad.

What you need is a top-line series around the Pacific rim and in South and South-East Asia (probably F3000), with (say) sixteen races - three each in Japan, Australia and New Zealand and the rest divided among (maybe) India, Indonesia, Philippines, Malaysia, China and Macau. This could be a feeder series into either Japanese FNippon, European F3000 or whatever replaces Indy Lights, with guaranteed drives for the winners.

I too am a fan of Dixon, and hope he does well in CART while staying safe - I'd also like to see him in F1....

[Zawed]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
What you need is a top-line series around the Pacific rim and in South and South-East Asia (probably F3000), with (say) sixteen races - three each in Japan, Australia and New Zealand....

I honestly don't think that NZ can support 3 such races at the moment, I think the only decent track with the appropriate safety requirements, and probably the closest we have to an "international" track (and that's being generous), is Pukekohe. I'm not sure about Manfield. Another option is to do an "Adelaide" and find a street circuit somewhere...remember the old Wellington Street race for Touring Cars?

[Vitesse2]

I figured that, from earlier posts - I was being generous to NZ (and this is supposed to be about Kiwi drivers!). Okay - how about two races each for those three, plus a double-points final race rotating between Japan, Australia and New Zealand, which could be at a circuit that's already held an event?

And after all, the circuits don't have to be up to F1 standards - F3000 raced for years at places like Enna, Donington, Brands Hatch, Vallelunga and Nogaro.

[FEV]

Your idea is great Vitesse2. There have been attempts to "unite" championships in the Pacific region, but strangely that never really seemed to work. The late Asia-Oceania Touring Car Championship and the poorly supported Rally Championship never really worked. I've always wonder why ?
There indeed should be a top single-seater series covering Oceania and Asia. Tracks are here : if you add all the ones in Japan, Australia, NZ, Indonesia, Malaysia and the street races in Macao, Korea and China we have a great potential calendar in our hands. But maybe something of the F3000 level is a bit optimistic. Maybe something like F3 or Formula Atlantic would be more realistic in terms of $$. The CART Indy Lights championship will not be organised after 2001... that makes a lot of cars available. Can't we imagine japanese, australian, NZ etc.. federations buying them together and leasing them to teams of their countries ? Yes that doesn't sound to realistic but we can dream, no ?

[David McKinney]

Around 1980, the Pacific rim countries, after much lobbying, got the FIA to sanction an international Formula Pacific (ie Atlantic) championship with rounds in - form memory - NZ, Australia, Japan and Malaysia. With a couple of exceptions, qualifying rounds were contested only by residents of the host countries. There was insufficient incentive in terms of glory or money to entice individuals to take part.
It would only work today for FH or F3000 or anything else you care to name with the sort of money that is simply not available.

[Rob29]

it was suposed to be called Formula Mundial,I seem to remember.Unfortunately Bernie got involved,so it crumbled to dust.

[fines]

Originally posted by HSV
The guy who really could do well in Europe though is Simon Wills. He dominates the Formula Holden races and wins everything he competes in except the recent Bathurst race where he made 2 silly mistakes.

Simon Wills ran in Europe in 1996/7, in the British F3 Championship. His best results from 32 races were one 7th and one 8th. Hmm...

Craig Baird and Greg Murphy were certainly talented, but stepped off the single-seater career too early. Paul Radisich really belongs to a different era, along with Brett Riley, Rob Wilson and Mike Thackwell. They all could have made it, but for...

One fact that Kiwi drivers don't make it today is probably that they get regularly beaten by the likes of Ken Smith in FFord. Not that I wouldn't think highly of Ken, but how old is he? 70? 80?

As for FMondial, that was just a common name for FAtlantic and FPacific in 1983. It was touted as early as late 1980, with a view to a possible World Series, but nothing came of it. A North American Formula Mondial Cup was run by the FIA in 1983, and won by Michael Andretti iirc, but soon the FIA lost interest and it took a couple of years to rekindle interest from SCCA and CASC. Don't really know how things went in the Pacific region? Before that, they always managed to attract some European drivers in our winter, and I distinctly remember Keke Rosberg going there (1979 ?), racing against Radisich, Dave McMillen et al...

[Vitesse2]

Rosberg was New Zealand International Champion in 1977 and 1978 (FPacific). Teo Fabi won the title in 1979, Roberto Moreno in 1982.

[clickhappy]

Formula Pacific was rad.

Steve Cameron was a great Atlantic driver, the french-canadians screwed him out of a win at Trois Riviers. Weak.

[Keir]

Joe fan
Juan Montoya sounds alot like Jacques Villeneuve after his first season in F1. "Jack" sings quite a different tune nowadays!
When and if Scott Dixon tires of the crash and bang CART series and decides to follow in Bruce, Denny and Chris' footsteps, only then will he reach his full potential as a race driver.

Some things, like F1 being the top of the heap, never change.
But.......................don't take my word for it.
Ask Mario, Jacques, Juan..........I think you get the idea!

[leegle]

The lack of money for Australian and New Zealander drivers seams more to be a lack of population base to draw money from. While the Australian economy might be strong it is still only a small economy compared to Brazil.
Ken Smith? I think he has yet to reach 60 but it certainly won't be long!
Vitesse: There are moves at the moment to get Formula 3 to a popular level using cars a couple of years old and it seams to be gathering momentum.

[Takahashi]

Although this thread was originally about Kiwis, it seems to have spread across the Tasman enough for me to concentrate on Aussies ...

All those of you who have suggested that money is the big problem facing drivers from 'down under' are absolutely correct. And it's not so much the fact that Australia and NZ don't have strong single-seater categories (Formula Holden is pitiful at the moment), it's just that V8 Supercars are too dominant, and too entrenched. Just as single seaters are the culture in South America and Europe, V8s are the culture in Australia especially.

A look down the list of drivers at Bathurst reveals a host of talent who have tried and failed to make it in open wheelers overseas.

Russell Ingall won the 1993 British FFord championship, and came 2nd in the 1991 British FF1600 championship.

After dominating Formula Holden, Mark Skaife was given two Formula 3000 races where he failed to impress.

Memorably, Craig Lowndes signed a ten-year contract with TWR in 1996 that should have guaranteed him an F1 drive within 7 years. He joined the championship-winning Marko F3000 team in 1997, where the major backer on the side of his car was, nonetheless, 'Holden'. Unable to adjust he got kicked by his team-mate Montoya, and returned to Australia to concentrate on V8s. He did of course have an IndyLights test (or was it a full-blown Champ Car test?) with Team Kool Green, but that was never going to go anywhere.

Mark Larkham was very successful in Formula Fords, and if I remember correctly, aroused interest in Europe.

David Besnard spent time in France (French F3???) before returning to Australia to race V8s, having run out of cash.

Marcos Ambrose, who took pole at Bathurst, diced at the front in the same Formula Ford Festival as James Courtney and, wait for it, Kimi Raikkonen. He too had an Indy Lights test with Dorricott Racing before ending up in V8s this year.

Jason Bright did a full season of Indy Lights and had one fantastic Champ Car outing last year, but this year ended up in V8s full time as well.

See a pattern? It's a shame how V8 dominates the Australian psyche so much that it almost serves as a 'retirement home' for drivers who haven't had the funds to make it overseas. The problem with any other category, or any attempts to unite Asia-Pacific categories, is the question of sponsorship and media coverage.

Webber, Courtney and Briscoe have all gotten as far as they have because they have been picked up by Briatore, Jaguar and Toyota. But after his recent F3000 disappointments, one wonders how long Flav will stick with Webber, and now that Rahal's left Jag I don't know how much time Niki Lauda has for Courtney.

[fines]

Welcome Kunimitsu! [Or is that you, Masami, with a new username? ]

Anyway, I think you're right about the "culture" thing, we had a similar phenomenon here in Germany in the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s. Every promising driver ended up with a sports car seat, and that was that! Hardly anyone cared to take the hard way through the single-seaters. It takes a lot of single-mindedness to go for a distant dream when a comfortable living can be made by basically staying at home! The opposite thing happened in near Austria, where there's no local racing scene of any note, so that for many years this small country produced many good Grand Prix drivers, while there were hardly any from the noted car-manufacturing neighbour to the north.

[dmj]

...And probably youngsters in Oz watch Bathurst races and grow dreaming of winning 24 hrs there... And they should - since I purchased Toca WTC Playstation game, Bathurst became my favorite circuit...Much, much better than current Australian GP track.

[Takahashi]

Thanks for the welcome, 'fines' ... don't worry, I'm not Masami, I'm just Masami's partner-in-crime at F1 Rejects ...

And dmj, Bathurst IS a terrific circuit, no doubt ... apart from the old Nurburgring and Spa, it's probably the only road racing track left in the world with any real character ...

But going back to the original topic of Kiwi drivers, it's interesting that NZ has produced 8 F1 drivers, and Australia 15, even though AUS has 6 times the population. Apart from Amon, Hulme, Ganley and McLaren, the other 4 Kiwis were Shelly, McRae, Nicholson and Thackwell. The last three in particular are interesting stories ...

Small world: if I'm not wrong, Thackwell is David Brabham's brother-in-law , and of course Hulme died of a heart attack whilst racing at Bathurst.

[fines]

Thanx for clearing that up, Kunimitsu-san!

Maybe you are able to answer another question I've been having for ages: Are Kunimitsu and Kenji Takahashi in any form related to each other? I know that Peter Higham, for one, clearly says "not", but they were teammates for many years and shared a common sponsor (ADVAN) almost throughout their (long) careers. Any ideas?

[Takahashi]

I could be wrong, but my guess is they're not. I'm not Japanese myself (and I don't really know why Kuwashima and I have both looked to Japanese drivers for nicknames - we're not picking on Japanese drivers!!! ), but I think 'Takahashi' is a pretty common surname in Japan.

[FEV]

I've always considered them as brothers. As you said Fines they often drove together under Advan sponsorship so that was enough for me... Same question about Kazuyoshi and Kaoru Hoshino. They did'nt race so often together, but Hoshino seems like a less common name than Takahashi or Nakano in Japan. Anyone knows ?

[fines]

You're right, Kunimitsu, Takahashi is a very common name in Japan. I have found at least half a dozen Takahashis during my Japan project, and that's only single-seater races. Probably comes immediately behind Kato, Sato, Ito and Suzuki.

About Kaoru Hoshino, don't know. I never even heard the name, he certainly raced no single-seaters!!!?

[Barry Boor]

I bet Kuwashima and Takahashi are not as common as Yamanaka!

[FEV]

Fines,
You are right about Kaoru Hoshino I don't think he did much single-seater (if any). He did a lot of Endurance in Japan : JSPC & Fuji Long Distance Series and also some JTCC. Martin's search engine could provide us a full race by race recap. I remember he was involved with Toyota, often being a Tom's driver (even at le Mans at the end of the 80s).

[Wolf]

Well, seeing the initial question and reading the following posts (I do have some catching up to do, seeing I was on a dog-sitting trip since Monday), one thing occured to me. We still can blame it on Bernie...;) Apparently TV stations get 30% discount for F1 coverage if they sign they will not cover live any other form of automobile racing. And they're supposed to further motor racing-not destroy it.

[William Hunt]

Shelly, McRae, Nicholson and Thackwell. The last three in particular are interesting stories ... (qoute)

Why are the last 3 of such interest ?

[Andrew Kitson]

The highly rated Kiwi Brendon Hartley could be the next New Zealander to reach the dizzy heights of Formula 1.
At 18 he is in a long term contract with Red Bull, providing backing to the Carlin team in British F3.
I hear he has been testing with the F1 Toro Rosso team in Italy this week..

[Huw Jadvantich]

There is a book with pen potraits and pictures on fifty plus NZ international drivers including Brendon Hartley, Dixon, McRae, McLaren etc published by Harper Collins New Zealand called 'the drivers' .
its only sold in NZ but can be shipped from
www.classiccar.co.nz/shopping/media-and-software/books/shopping_detail?pid=the-drivers-a-celebration-of-nz-motorsports-greatest-by-tim-nevinson