22 replies to this topic

[Mr. Salty]

I don't necessarily believe they were deliberately cheating with the front wing, but since everyone jumps on Ferrari at every turn for breaking rules, I thought it only fair McLaren should get the same treatment. Face it, if it was Ferrari appealing this ruling the board would be full of "those damn cheaters, I knew it!" Or "They cheated, but the FIA will let them off because they are biased toward Ferrari."

Here we have a MAC in trouble, and not a peep. Even the Ferrari fans are saying they hope he wins the appeal and gets back his points. Strange...

[BuzzingHornet]

Hardly the same thing... Ferrari romping to a 1-2 and then being DQ'd and a damaged McLaren limping in 2nd and then being DQ'd. Especially as Ferrari had been hiding those barge boards under tea-cosies all weekend and then suddenly they are illegal... having said that, McLaren had a small tent over the front wins on the grid at Interlagos, so...

[Mr. Salty]

Not the same thing Buzz, but similar. And my point is that if Ferrari had the EXACT SAME PROBLEM that DC's car had, this board would be a happy hunting ground for Ferrari bashers.

(I'm not counting Frans as he lives in another dimension.);)

[Jhope]

Uhmm, ALL teams cover their wings on the grid. It prevents the others teams from making last minute adjustment while looking at rival cars.

Look, I want David to be re-instated as well. I also wish the FIA would lax down on the rules, and not go into every race looking for someone to DQ. I swear to god, this is just a PR stunt by the FIA stewards. They just want their name out there incase they do not have a job anymore. Anyone can see that they just want to show their authority, and lay down the law because they can. To me, they seem like a bunch of over protective parents that want to set their kids in the right place. Makes me sick that the sport I've followed since 1978 has turned into such a FIAsco. I bet these Stewards go into the race wanting to do something controversial. Last year in Montreal, i was siting right in front of the scrutineering garage. Let me tell you, the Jordan and MaClaren team were ALWAYS being held at that bay longer then all the teams. EJ got into an agument with one of the Stewards, who I believe was Charlie Whiting. They must have yelled at each other for a good five minutes. Same goes for Ron Dennis. Meanwhile, Ferrari and Williams, just did a stop and go through the scruteneering bay.

It's got to stop!

Jason

[Peter]

Jason, perhaps some cars were held longer because they were closer to the limits?

If you are not willing to believe that many teams are willing to cheat, then ask yourself why they are all so keen to hide everything with covers?

(Oh, maybe it was the covers that were too heavy and bent the McLaren front wings down!)

[Mr. Salty]

Not sure if you meant to do it Jhope, but I noticed you managed to get a jab in at Ferrari in that post.

[MrAerodynamicist]

Let us not forget that it was the Brazilian stewards that went against Charlie Whitting and banned McLarens driver-controled brake steer thingy.

------------------
MrA
Ferrari Fans are just lost sheep following the pack
BREADnet

[Ellen UK]

BH, other than Ron Dennis' words, what other evidence do you have that McLaren was damaged?

Why talk in absence of facts? or you could actually see on your TV screen that the wings were in fact damaged and not mounted lower?

PS. Ferrari run the boards all weekend because Ron Dennis waited until he was defeated to talk to his friends and have them DSQed.....

[Jhope]

Actually, i'm a mojor williams fan, and in this case, i also took a jab at them. In reality i did not take a jab at them. I was just pointing out that the other top teams were sent of without anything. Anyeays, I know Charlie Whiting does not have the final say, but it seemed to be an interesting argument.

I know some cars are closer to the limits then most, but it seemed that the argument was on directed towards the type of rear wing elements Jordan were using, and for the Mac's, the shape and length of the diffuser. Wanna know something, I love the sport, and I don't hate any team. I like competition to be on track instead of off the track.

Jason

[DEVO]

Does F1 not pre-inspect all cars before they take the grid? I mean if something is deemed illegal... shouldn't they point it out right there and have the team fix it.

[Lamont]

DEVO, the cars get scrutinized all weekend long. I think what happened in this case is that the car was fine when it was looked at earlier in the weekend, but after the race the piece in question was no longer compliant.

Quite frankly it sounds like all the cars took a hell of a beating during the race...apparently 5 out of the top 6 cars wooden planks were non-compliant after the race. I couldn't believe the way MS's car was jumping around while he was passing Mika.

I definitely think this one should be overturned...that track was ridiculous in some sections.....

[BuzzingHornet]

Yeah fair enough Mr Salty, I can see how if Ferrari had had the same problem then some people would have been shouting for them to be kicked out of the race

Ellen, i've got absolutely no evidence at all

[freq019]

did anyone notice all the scuff marks on the track near the starting grid and before the pit exit, it was ridiculus, you could see that schumi started to take that turn wider to avoid the crazy bumpiness in that area. I agree with the poster who said they did a crappy job resurfacing this track, and all these problems seem related to the surface condition of the track. Anyway that's my $0.02

[Mr. Salty]

Yep, that's what I meant Buzz.

Maybe I'm a simp, but this seems real easy to me. Inspect the cars THOROUGLY before qualifying. Inspect the cars THOROUGLY after the race. If the cars are outside of the specs, they are illegal and should be DQ'd UNLESS something happened during the race to cause the descrepency, and the cause can be PROVEN. Thus we have the appeals process.

Does that make any sense?

[This message has been edited by Mr. Salty (edited 03-27-2000).]

[BuzzingHornet]

There should also be a time limit by which time a final decision is made, for better or worse. I don't like this idea of everyone swanning off to Paris a couple of weeks after the fact to decide the outcome of a race over a nice lunch or something

Otherwise, one of these days its going to get crazy, like... the final race of the championship has been run, but the results of the World Championship won't be known until McLaren's appeal from Monza goes through... even if they win that appeal, Ferrari might win a differnt appeal and get their points back from Indianapois, and win after all

[Damop]

BH - the big difference is that Ferrari did not point out the problem, did not snitch as RD did in Sepang. RD waited until Ferrari actually had dominated in Sepang before snitching - he could have done so after Europe but did not because he gained nothing from it. RD's own statements have come back to bite him in the ass - hope he enjoys the feast.

[John B]

Anyone think that the FIA is sending a not-so-subtle message to Ron Dennis? I find it interesting that DC's was the car that got disqualified, especially after reading here and elsewhere about Dennis' ongoing complaints with rule enforcement.

[Mr. Salty]

I'm trying to think of the best anecdotal saying for Ron when I e-mail him.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

"People living in glass houses..."

"Judge not, lest ye be judged."

hmmmmmm....

[AD]

DC's reason is nothing like the one for the others. MS, HHF, JT, and RS all had excessive plank wear. But DC's front wing broke the rules by 7mm, but in reality it was by 2mm as a 5mm tolerence is allowed. If this is the case then this means that MH was illegal, or was it McLaren favourtism again towards MH that they make doubly sure that his car is legal, and they just send DC out and hope for the best!

[Ellen UK]

BH, I see we agree finally. DC was DSQed because of the wings. The hearing will establish if it was a damage (in which case points have to be returned) or it was mounted lower on purpose (Ron spoke of a part broken and inverted, therefore it should be easy to show it was broken. If not, then points need to be taken away). Other than that, we cannot intelligently speak about this because we have no facts, only Ron's opinion. And he is the defendant in the case.

I agree, Ron's tactics from last year are biting back. I am enjoying that a lot, although I hope Dc's car will be found damaged. I would hate for the driver, who raced very well considering the gearbox problems, to be stripped of his work.

[John]

It is possible that McLaren can be fined for a "minor" transgression if it is determined that the "error" did not result in a performance gain. The points may still be awarded to DC, but the constructor pays for the mistake. This has been done before.

Mika Salo's car was very far out of tolerance in Australia (was it 10mm + the 5mm allowed), and the Mclaren's were 2mm outside that tolerance (+ the 5mm allowed). Any performance gain? Not likely.

They will likely prove that and get the points back.

[Ellen UK]

I agree with you John, I think McLaren will be able to prove something was wrong or broken with the part. DC had major problems with his gearbox, he certainly didn't get any substantial advantage from the lower wings. I hope that can be demonstrated and the points returned, so that we don't have any BS lingering over the WC

[John]

I hope McLaren don't rely on the lame excuse that "the gearbox was broken, so we couldn't gain any advantage" because that would be missing the point, but I agree with you Ellen that there was no way DC could have made any advantage out of his situation.

I think Ron Dennis will take one on the chin for the constructors, but DC will be reinstated somehow.

I would like to point out that it is not too early for this to affect the championships. Every point counts.