82 replies to this topic

[Gert]

Hi,

I've been browsing some CART results lately. While now everybody uses Reynards or Lolas (Marches and Eagles too, some years ago), when the series started (1979 IIRC) they used their own weird-named cars like Rattlesnake, Wildcat, Lightning, Longhorn etc...

However, I also found some names connected to Formula 1 (Theodore, Spirit, even Ligier), and Sportscar Racing (Argo)
Does anybody know if there's any connection to the ones we knew in F1, or just a coincidence?

To help you out, some data I found:

Theodore:
1979: Theodore Racing entered an Eagle-Ford for Mike Mosley (no 36)
1980: idem, no 48
1983: "Master Mechanic /Caesar's" (sponsor name?? Theodore-Ford for Kevin Cogan (no 6) @ Mid Ohio Sept 11 & Elkhart Lake July 31
1984: "United Breweries": Theodore 83 - Ford for Jim Crawford (no 78) @ Long Beach 3/31, Meadowlands 7/1, Indy 5/27
1984: Theodore Racing: Theodore 83 - Ford for Bruno Giacomelli (no 44) @ Phoenix 4/14, Long Beach 3/31
1984: Theodore Racing: Theodore 84 - Ford for Giacomelli (no 52) @ Indy 5/27
1985: Ensign Racing: Theodore Ford for Chico Serra (no 15) @ Portland 6/16

Spirit:
1983: Spirit83-Chevy for Gary Bettenhausen @ Milwaukee 6/12

Ligier:
1984: "Dubonnet-Ligier": Ligier LC02-Ford for Kevin Cogan (no 98) @ Long Beach 3/31, later driven by Michael Chandler (no 98) @ Phoenix 4/14 for "Ligier-Curb Racing", they also used the Eagle 84SB for Cogan and the "entrant" was called "Dubonnet-Curb" then...

Argo:
1983: Argo 83-Ford for Bill Alsup (no 11) @ Indy 5/29
1984: Bill Alsup (no 27) drove following cars: Argo JM15-Ford @ Cleveland 7/8, Argo JM15B-Ford @ Michigan 7/22, Pocono 8/19 and Argo JM15C-Ford at Sanair 9/9.

In case of Theodore, the entrant could well have been the same as in F1, but what about the cars named Theodore. Note that the cars are carrying the name "83" in 1984. Would this mean they have anything to do with the car that appeared in F1 the year before?
Especially 1985 is interesting as in 1983 Theodore was racing a disguised Ensign in F1, this seems the other way around...
Should I assume Mo Nunn was involve with all post-1983 activities?

The "Spirit" seems to be used only once, on an oval. Makes it hard to believe it has anything to do with the F1-team or car.
On the other hand, the year 1983 seems correct...

The Argo is using the right initials ...
But what about Ligier???

Anybody??

[fines]

In short: Teddy Yip and his "Theodore Racing" logo were sponsors and entrants as well. In 1979/80 Yip sponsored the Eagle works team, thus the entrant is "All American Racers", later Yip was his own entrant and built his own cars for CART, I don't think Nunn was involved. Theodore Racing was already co-entrant for the second works Ensign in 1977, driven by Patrick Tambay.

About the Spirit, I draw a blank at the moment...

The Ligier was built by "Automobiles Ligier Sports", the same company that built the F1 cars.

The Argo was built by "Anglia Cars", the same company that built the F3 and sports car Argos. It was probably an upgraded Formula Atlantic chassis, since I'm not aware of a fully blown Indy project.

OT: Can you enlighten me on the "Rattlesnake"?

[Luís Sampaio]

Rattlesnake:
It wasn't a car but a team name, I supose...

[Gert]

Can't tell you much about the Rattlesnake, sorry.
Rattlesnake was indeed listed as an entrant, but later a car with the same name appeared (not 100% sure it was a real car rather than something "rebadged")

Some data I found on "Rattlesnake"
1981: "Rattlesnake Racing": Watson-Offy no 42: Billy Vukovich (@ Indy 5/24 DNQ, Riverside 8/30 DNQ, Pocono 6/14
1982: "Rattlesnake Racing": March 81 - Ford no 42: Jim Hickman (@ Cleveland 7/4)
1982: "Rattlesnake Racing": Rattlesnake 82 - Ford no 11: Dick Ferguson (Michigan 9/26)
1983: "Hubler Chevrolet": Rattlesnake 82 - Ford no 81: Herm Johnson (Indy 5/29 DNQ)
1983: "Agajanian/Curb/Rattlesnake": Rattlesnake - Ford no 29: Michael Chandler (Indy 5/29)
1983: "Agajanian/Curb": Rattlesnake - Ford no 19: Michael Chandler (Michigan 7/17)
1983: "Rattlesnake Racing": March 81 - Ford no 19: Dick Ferguson (Pocono 8/14)
1984: Rattlesnake 81-Ford no 81: Larry Cannon (Indy 5/27 DNQ)

Most of the info I have on this subject comes from Philip Harms via motorsport.com or SwissTiming/Omegatiming.

Unfortunatly, instead of the team as an entrant, they often refer to the name of the car (e.g. Mackenzie Special) so sometimes it's hard to find out which is the team and which is the sponsor...


Currently, I'm sorting out the data I have on my PC and on paper (several copies of unknown origin ) and I'm getting interested in all those cars with strange names - some of which hardly turned a wheel. It would be interesting to find what they were, where they came from, if they were built for/by just one team or widely available etc, ... or just something that was rebadged.

Only of the most recent cars (Truesports, RH, Galmer) I have some idea, but what about the Phoenix, DSR-1 (Doug Shierson Racing?), VDS (PC10, probably a Penske), IAM (Machinists?), King, Gerhardt, Orbiter, Manta, Spyder, Carl, DC (Coyne), Primus, MP10 (Arciero), Longhorn, Lightning, Vollstedt, Wildcat?

Unfortunatly my interest is greater than my knowmledge, once again...

[fines]

Just a bit of info:

- the "Phoenix" was, I believe, a Penske copy by the Pat Patrick team, but why it wasn't called "Wildcat", I don't know. Maybe I'm completely wrong here...

- "VDS" stands for van der Straaten, a Dutch Count who had a CanAm team in the seventies and eighties, usually racing Lolas.

- "King" or "Kingfish" was the name of cars built by Grant King during the sixties, seventies and eighties.

- "Gerhardt" was the name of cars built by Fred Gerhardt in the same time frame.

- the "Orbiter" was built by March Engineering for Sherman Armstrong.

- the "Manta" was possibly built by Frank Weiss of Canada, at least that's what I always thought, but now I think it was probably built much earlier and then sold to Weiss.

- the "Primus" was built by (?) and/or for driver Chris Kneifel; it was, iirc, also a Penske copy, with a larger monocoque to accomodate the "oversized" Kneifel.

- the "Longhorn" was a Williams FW07 copy, built by Bobby Hillin. I think there were at least two models, but both based upon the Williams.

- "Lightning" is the name for Indycars built by Lindsey Hopkins Racing.

- "Vollstedt" cars were built by Rolla Vollstedt.

- "Wildcat" is the name for Indycars built by Pat Patrick Racing in the seventies and eighties.

[Gert]

Thanks for this information Fines!
It's very useful for me...

[Gerr]

Re: Primus...The 1983 cars were the Longhorn LR03s. Chris Kneifel and his stepfather bought the Hillen operation and lengthened the cars for 6'6" Chris to drive. The 1984 cars had chassis prefixes "PR04" and were supposed to be new chassis but still looked very much like the earlier cars.

Re: Longhorn...Based on the FW07, designed by Frank Durney for Bobby Hillen, Built by Ed Zink.

Re: Rattlesnake...The 1983 car was a Roman Slobodinsky design, built by Harry Schwartz and John Martin at Rattlesnake Racing for Bill Freeman, sponsored by Agajanian/Curb, driven by Chandler.

Re: Argo...Alsup had been successful in Argo Super Vees and had Jo Marquart design and build an Argo champ car, the JM15. The car did not get to Indy until late April '83, too many bugs, not enough time.

Re: Theodore...Yip and Nunn had merged F1 teams for '83. Nigel Bennett had designed a champ car for them and they sold the deal to Bignotti-Cotter. Sneva lost confidence in the car when it shed
it's sidepods at speed, switched to a March, won the 500. Yip/Nunn entered two Theodores for the 500 in '84 but the driver (Bruno Giacomelli) did not pass the ROP.

Depending mostly on memory for this Gert, hope it is all correct.

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by fines
Just a bit of info:

- "VDS" stands for van der Straaten, a Dutch Count who had a CanAm team in the seventies and eighties, usually racing Lolas.

- the "Manta" was possibly built by Frank Weiss of Canada, at least that's what I always thought, but now I think it was probably built much earlier and then sold to Weiss.

fines did a very good job here, I can only add a bit on one and a lot of detail on another...

Rudi van der Straaten is correct, he fielded Champ Cars for a while after his stint in Can-Am.

The Manta...where to begin? We need a separate thread for the Manta saga. A dismal failure. The Manta has to rank as one of the most colossal flops in Champ Car racing. The car was originally known as the Antares Manta, built by Antares Engineering for the 1972 season. Lindsey Hopkins and Pat Patrick commissioned the cars and Michner also got in on the deal. Antares was a company that I believe had only designed boats.

Interestingly, this is the first reference I find to telemetry in Champ Car racing. It was so foreign, the reports didn't use the word "telemetry".

They triumphantly announced that their computer simulation showed the car would run 17 mph faster at Indianapolis than any car had at the time.

Turns out they were right in their estimates, but they must have had data from Gurney's Eagle instead

Initial tests with Roger McCluskey at Ontario Motor Speedway came out very poor (I believe his response when queried how it went was "don't ask"). The vaunted Mantas failed to show for the opener at Phoenix. I believe at least one showed for round 2 at Trenton, but was withdrawn. A revision was made to the boat like nose of the car, but it wasn't enough. As May rolled around, announcments came of teams switching to the previous year's equipment. Some good drivers were members of those teams: McCluskey, Johnny Rutherford, Swede Savage. A few tried sticking it out, but Savage DNQ for Indy and McCluskey got the only one into the field. And that was about it, except for Frank Weiss digging one up and making some races in 1978 and 1979 with it and Eldon Rasmussen somehow putting it into the '79 Indy '500'.

The terms "brick" and "lump" keep running through my mind

There really should be a separate thread on the Manta, it's saga was well chronicled in material I have.

Someone have a scan of it, or do I do one?


Jim Thurman

[fines]

I have a picture of the Manta in 1979, in the pits at Ontario (?), and it doesn't look like the '72 Antares. Still, it could be the same car, tell us more!

[fines]

The Manta (Frank Weiss, Ontario, 1979-03-25, Q21, R20)



The same car? Hmm...

The Antares (Roger McCluskey, Idianapolis, 1972-05-27, Q20, R24...



... and Wally Dallenbach, Indianapolis, 1972-05-27, DNQ)

[fines]

The '78 Vollstedt (Dick Simon, Ontario, 1979-03-25, Q4, R7)

[fines]

The "Crower" Eagle (Jerry Sneva, Ontario, 1979-03-25, Q14, R21). Looks like a regular '73 Eagle with a regular Chevy V8 to me...

[fines]

"Theodore Racing", but definitely an Eagle with a Chevy V8 about to blow up (Mike Mosley, Indianapolis, 1980-05-25, Q26, R32)

[fines]

A '78 Lightning (Pancho Carter, Phoenix, 1979-03-11, Q12, R20)

[fines]

Longhorn LR01 (Sprint Car star Sheldon Kinser, Indianapolis, 1981-05-24, Q23, R6)

[the blurr at the front is from the book binding DANGER scanning can damage your books!]

[fines]

The Phoenix, clearly another FW07 clone (Gordon Smiley, Indianapolis, 1980-05-25, Q20, R25)

[fines]

The Rascar (Eldon Rasmussen, Ontario, 1979-03-25, Q20, R11)

[fines]

Oh yes, the Rattlesnake, I found it!!!! (Mike Chandler, Indianapolis, 1983-05-29, Q30, R16)

[fines]

Wildcat Mk 8, one of the prettier examples... (Gordon Johncock, Indianapolis, 1981-05-24, Q4, R9)

[another blurred one - my books!!! ]

[fines]

And one of A. J. Watson's later creations (again Sheldon Kinser, Ontario, 1979-03-25, Q7, R4)

[fines]

Originally posted by Gerr
Re: Longhorn...Based on the FW07, designed by Frank Durney for Bobby Hillen, Built by Ed Zink.

That's, of course, Frank Dernie for the F1 buffs, and the car owner was Bobby Hillin, iirc.

Ed Zink, Ed Zink... the name rings a bell, but nobody's home! Can you enlighten me, Gerr?

[FEV]

I remember reading about a Zink Formula Vee that was very succesful in SCCA - any link ? Can't remember where I read this (US magazine ? internet ?). And also Gerr, is there a connection between Ed and famous Indy owner John Zink ?

Michael,
Man do you have some racing car pics ?

[Gerr]

Ed Zink was famous for his Formula Vees, sports racers and Super Vees. No relation to John Zink as far as I know.
Anyway, Ed Zink is credited with building the Longhorn(s) in one of the Hungness Indy yearbooks, but I looked at another old book today that has pics of Jackie Howerton fabricating a Longhorn tub and giving Al Unser a fitting. Different year maybe? Maybe Howerton was working for Zink?

Re: Spirit...In '78 and/or '79 there was a Spirit-AMC entered at Indy. Perhaps this was the car Gary B had at Milwaukee with a Chevrolet?

Re: Phoenix...Some bits from a yearbook, designed by John Thompson for George Bignotti who sold the car(s) to Jerry O'Connell. And maybe others to Patrick?

[fines]

Is that John Thompson of TC Prototypes?

[Megatron]

More recent examples of the own make chassis would be the Truesports, which ran with terrible power when the car was good, then with a terrible car when they finally got Chevy power.

Another was the RH01, which was basically the old Truesports car from 1992 with a new gearbox. It was a terrible failure, and was quickly parked.

Gallas ran the Galmer chassis, but it was disapointing, 1992 Indy 500 aside.

Gurney ran an Eagle in 1996 and again in 1998, which virtually cost him the Toyota contract.

And one should mention the Penske Reynard, as the only peice that is 100% stock on the car is the tub. If CART were a stable sereis, I would think Roger would build his own car again.

Sadly, I think CART will proabably be gone by 2003 and thanks to the rules of the IRL, own-make cars are a thing of the past.

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by fines
I have a picture of the Manta in 1979, in the pits at Ontario (?), and it doesn't look like the '72 Antares. Still, it could be the same car, tell us more!

I'll try to dig up the info on the Antares launching. Good job on the photos fines, some cars there I haven't seen in a long time (and some that the principals behind would probably have preferred to not see again )

Here is a post to another forum by Steve Zautke, that discusses the Antares Manta (re-posted here with his permission)...the thread was on older cars making the Indy '500':

Steve Zautke" wrote:
> On an earlier thread, someone mentioned Danny Kladis in the
> Grancor Miller in '46 which is a good choice for "relics" making
> the Indy 500. For "modern" history I would have to go with Eldon
> Rasmussen making the race in 1979 in the 1972 Antares-Chevy.
> Rasmussen abandoned his RasCar-Foyt since the new pop-off
> reg's made the Ford/Foyt 8 cylinder obsolete. He started to
> work on the Bivouc #50. I believe the Antares chassis made the
> 500 with Roger McCluskey (with a different nose configuration).
> Rasmussen told me he got the car balanced right, the Chevy was
> strong, he put the car exactly where it needed to be on the
> track for max-speed and lo-and-behold it's in the race.
> I believe there were four Antares that were built (maybe more?).
> In 1972 there was a lot of pre-season publicity regarding the
> new cars and their radical design. Hopkins took delivery
> (McCluskey #14) as did Patrick racing (Savage #42) and I
> believe Gilmore (#10 Dallenbach). The cars never really panned
> out and my mid-season were all but disappeared, then in 1979
> Eldon put one in the race. I forget the gentleman's name from
> Michigan(?) who experimented with the Voelker V-12 in one. It
> was for sale last year. I believe the first $2500 took it.

[Allen Brown]

Originally posted by Gerr
Ed Zink was famous for his Formula Vees, sports racers and Super Vees. No relation to John Zink as far as I know.
Anyway, Ed Zink is credited with building the Longhorn(s) in one of the Hungness Indy yearbooks, but I looked at another old book today that has pics of Jackie Howerton fabricating a Longhorn tub and giving Al Unser a fitting. Different year maybe? Maybe Howerton was working for Zink?

IIRC, Ed Zink built the original LR01 design (1980, I think) using a 1979 FW07 design. The car flopped and I think Zink departed at that point. For 1981, Longhorn worked from the 1980 FW07B design and, to give them a leg up, Williams gave them a complete FW07B which became Longhorn LR02/1. Howerton then built a clone of that, LR02/2, which is now in the UK owned by someone who is trying to make out it is a Williams.

The "real" Williams-Longhorn, LR02/1, was later used to rebuild a crashed FW07B and is now racing in historics in the US.

As far as I know, that Longhorn LR02/1 was the only ex-F1 car to race in CART. The Theodores were definitely built new but they did continue Mo Nunn's numbering system; the 1983 cars being MN19 and MN20.

Allen

[Rainer Nyberg]

The Michael Chandler driven '83 Rattlesnake at the '83 Indy was designated '31'. Rattlesnake 31-Cosworth.

The Chris Kneifel driven Primus at the '83 Indy was based on the '82 Longhorn but a new chassis. As Gerr stated, it had to be modified to suit the lanky frame of Kneifel.

The Argo JM15 was commissioned by Bill Alsup. Alsup wanted to be an exclusive customer instead of beeing the 40th or whatever customer at March. The car was designed by Jo Marquart. It featured an aluminium honeycomb chassis with magnesium bulkheads.

George Binotti had a similar idea when he contacted Mo Nunn for the Nigel Bennett designed Theodore. The car was of carbonfibre construction.

Both the Argo and Theodore arrived too late on the scene for the Indy 500 and were not fully developed in May. The Argo reached 191mph and the Theodore driven by Tom Sneva ran 199mph. Tom Sneva ultimately chose his other mount - A March 83C.

Here is a pic of the Argo JM15

[fines]

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Williams gave them a complete FW07B which became Longhorn LR02/1.

Interesting, which chassis would've been that?

[brickyard]

hello everybody,

I'm new to this forum wich I think is a great one.

Does anybody know about a car called Karl?

I think it was a McLaren M16 with sidepods and other "extras".
Does anybody know more??

[leegle]

Fines: I thought Rudi van der Straaten was Belgian?

[fines]

Originally posted by leegle
Fines: I thought Rudi van der Straaten was Belgian?

You may be right about that, leegle, I'm not positive.

About the Karl, yes that was an M16 (I believe, chassis M16C-02 from memory) fitted with ground-effect sidepods, entered by and for Jerry Karl in the early 80s.

[ghinzani]

VDS was a Belgian Count (I said Count...) , thats why he employed Teddy Pillete! We had dealings with Teddy when I worked in FF - didnt beleive in paying for things as I remember - got a feeling he was modifying soem Ralt F3 car at the time and calling it a Pillete or somesuch... anyone remember that one? It had strange underbody aerodynamics I think.

Fines you so know your stuff!! I am going to ask you a USAC/Cart question you cant answer one day, I promise!! ;-) Where the ligiers and Theodores nothing to do with the previous seasons DFV powered GP cars btw?

[Mike Argetsinger]

The principal in Antares Engineering was Don Gates - who was the designer/engineer responsible for the Chaparral 2J. He was a real pioneer in ground effects - way ahead of anyone else at the time. The fact that the Indy car didn't work out doesn't alter this.

[fines]

Originally posted by ghinzani
Where the ligiers and Theodores nothing to do with the previous seasons DFV powered GP cars btw?

From memory, they looked pretty much like the '83 F1 cars, especially the Ligier. But I don't think I've seen the pictures in the last ten years or so, so I could be VERY wrong!

The Pilette F3: I only remember it looked unusual, nothing more specific. And I think it never raced. Christ, I can't even remember the year...

[ghinzani]

Originally posted by fines

From memory, they looked pretty much like the '83 F1 cars, especially the Ligier. But I don't think I've seen the pictures in the last ten years or so, so I could be VERY wrong!

The Pilette F3: I only remember it looked unusual, nothing more specific. And I think it never raced. Christ, I can't even remember the year...

Yeah I only ever saw 'em in the Autospurt review of CART 84, dunno where that magazine went tho....

Pilette F3 - 93 or 94 maybe? we were gonna run one in German F3 backed by Liptonice tea - which tasted foul!

[ghinzani]

Originally posted by Mike Argetsinger
.

Mike you've probably been asked this before but are you any rtelation to Peter?

[brickyard]

I've read somewere that the CART Ligier car was a '83 F1 chassis
with some changes to acommodate the DFX engine.

I've one photo of that car somewere.

I'll try to find it, and I will post it here.

Does anybody have photos of the Karl??

That´s for Fines:

Did you ever heard about some indycars called Lion, Bear and Dragon??;)

[ghinzani]

As I recall that Ligier that Cogan drove for Mike Curb looked very much like the one Jumper Jarier and Rowuuuul Boesel had driven the year before in f1. Would the Theodore have been the 82 Theodore F1 car or the 83 Theodore (developed from 82 Ensign)?? 82 Ensign/83 Theodore had carbon elements in construction - wasnt carbon frowned upon in CART for a long time??

Fines, quick test without looking at your books - what was Pat Bedards engine in the 84 500? Also did you ever hear of Indycar drivers called Po, La-la and Tinky-winkie?

[Carl R.S.]

Originally posted by fines


The Pilette F3: I only remember it looked unusual, nothing more specific. And I think it never raced. Christ, I can't even remember the year...

The Pilette PWT94C was built in 1994. The car was unusual in that the rear wing was quite low. Warren Hughes tested it at Snetterton. I think the car was supposed to debut in the German F3 race at Singen in 1994, but it's driver (Paolo Coloni?) crashed it during practice.

It did race in the final German F3 round at Hockenheim in October 1994. It was supposed to be driven by Jeremie Dufour, but he quit after it was off the pace, so Dirk Muller raced it.

[Mike Argetsinger]

Originally posted by ghinzani


Mike you've probably been asked this before but are you any rtelation to Peter?

Yes. Peter is my brother. He is racing at Daytona this weekend in the GrandAm Finale in a Riley&Scott-Ford Prototype. I had a drive lined up in the Grand Am Cup but it has fallen through - I'm going to Daytona anyway just to see Pete run.

[fines]

Originally posted by brickyard
That´s for Fines:

Did you ever heard about some indycars called Lion, Bear and Dragon??;)

From memory:

The "Gilmore Lion" in the 30s

Bear and Dragon fail me at the moment...

[fines]

Originally posted by ghinzani
Fines, quick test without looking at your books - what was Pat Bedards engine in the 84 500?

Was that when he had his BIG crash? Sorry, can't remember the engine. Maybe a Greenfield?

Originally posted by ghinzani
Also did you ever hear of Indycar drivers called Po, La-la and Tinky-winkie?

No, Rubens Barrichello hasn't driven Indycars as of yet!;)

[fines]

Originally posted by ghinzani
Fines, quick test without looking at your books - what was Pat Bedards engine in the 84 500?

Couldn't resist and took a look at my books: He was driving the first Buick V6 that qualified for the "500", and probably the first Buick at all since 1935 (Cliff Bergere).

[fines]

What about a duck at Indy? Anyone remember that strange bird?

[FEV]

Wasn't the Dragon one of Grant King's cars ? I don't know if he build it but he sure raced it at Indy and in USAC in the late 70s (with mcElreath or John Martin at the wheel). But for the bear and even more for the duck ???????

About the Buick engine Scott Brayton also qualified for the 1984 Indy 500 with a Buick V6.

[ghinzani]

Originally posted by fines

Couldn't resist and took a look at my books: He was driving the first Buick V6 that qualified for the "500", and probably the first Buick at all since 1935 (Cliff Bergere).

Fines - it was a Buick, well done Sir! However I think I may have got you.... didnt one of the Mickey Thompson cars in the early 60s have a Buick motor? Im sure he entered a couple, perhaps the year that Dave McDonald and Eddie Sachs died, or maybe the year before... off to the loft to get a book, will check back later. Im sure the engine failed because it was, in Dan Gurneys words "Built on drag racing pricipals.."

Nice call on the Greenfield, whats that, was it Michael Greenfield and his dad who did those?

[fines]

Yes, you're right, the first of the "skates" was powered by a V8 Buick, in 1962! Forgot about that one...

The Greenfield was indeed built by Peter and Michael Greenfield (father & son), but I'm afraid that was ten years later... Another brainfade!

FEV, spot on! John Martin in 1976, entered by Agajanian/King/Hammond!

About Brayton, yes but he qualified on bump day, while Bedard made the cut the previous week, so he was the first.

[brickyard]

For everybody who hasn't seen any photos of the Ligier, in the next hours I'll be able to put them here (I hope! If I can find where I put the drives needed for my scanner to work)

I've also photos of the Primus, the Phoenix, some Wildcats, etc...

Keep in touch!!;)

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by fines
What about a duck at Indy? Anyone remember that strange bird?

fines, I assume that would be Jim Hurtubise's Mallard...the last front engined car.

Agajanian also fielded a car (c. 1967) known as the Shrike...not a duck, but a bird nevetheless


Jim Thurman