I've heard resp. read somwhere that the 'old' Hockenheim circuit is due for some major re-design. Specially the long straights (which are not really 'straights'...) are due to be axed. There are plans for shortening the total circuit to bring it down to a laptime of arond 1 min. 20sec. Main reason for this would be, I imagine, that the spectators can see the cars more often as well as safety concerns on such a long track (rescures need a relative long time to reach the site of accident). The changes should be already in place for the F1 race in July 2002.
Has anybody seen a map of the proposed new track yet?
Bert
Hockenheim
Started by
BertlF
, Oct 23 2001 12:31
21 replies to this topic
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#2
Frank de Jong
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Posted 23 October 2001 - 13:30
Yes, in some German magazines. IIRC the shortcut will be made from the start of the first "straight" (so a little after Burti's corner 
) to the chicane on the second straight. If nobody beats me to it, I'll see if I can post it tonight.
) to the chicane on the second straight. If nobody beats me to it, I'll see if I can post it tonight.
#3
unrepentant lurker
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Posted 23 October 2001 - 13:33
Its on the official hockenheim webpage. I think AF1 has a link to it someplace.
BTW, how long do they have to be before y'all will recognize them as straights?
BTW, how long do they have to be before y'all will recognize them as straights?
#4
BertlF
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Posted 23 October 2001 - 14:15
Originally posted by unrepentant lurker
Its on the official hockenheim webpage. I think AF1 has a link to it someplace.
BTW, how long do they have to be before y'all will recognize them as straights?
I've looked on the Hockenheimring-site (www.hockenheimring.de) but I can't find any hints on the layout of the 'new' track. They are not going to use the small track ('Kleiner Kurs'), aren't they? This would be too short.
Even the 'news' section does not mention any planned construction work.
Bert
#5
BertlF
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Posted 23 October 2001 - 14:26
Sorry, found it on the bottom of the news page now...
Although it's only on the German version of the site....
http://www.hockenhei...odern/bild.html
Bert
Although it's only on the German version of the site....
http://www.hockenhei...odern/bild.html
Bert
#6
Takahashi
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Posted 24 October 2001 - 23:54
What a great way (NOT!) to destroy a great track ...
OK, sure Hockenheim is no classic, and yes its long treks out into the forest: (1) aren't hugely safe, (2) make the marshals' job more difficult, and (3) don't allow many spectators outside of the stadium (and therefore brings in less $$$) ...
BUT you could always depend on Hockenheim to: (a) be a car-breaker, (b) therefore provide interesting results, © provide lots of slipstreaming and passing.
Apart from the tight hairpin at the end of the new section, I can't see any places where passing will be likely on the 'new' Hockenheim.
OK, sure Hockenheim is no classic, and yes its long treks out into the forest: (1) aren't hugely safe, (2) make the marshals' job more difficult, and (3) don't allow many spectators outside of the stadium (and therefore brings in less $$$) ...
BUT you could always depend on Hockenheim to: (a) be a car-breaker, (b) therefore provide interesting results, © provide lots of slipstreaming and passing.
Apart from the tight hairpin at the end of the new section, I can't see any places where passing will be likely on the 'new' Hockenheim.
#7
Racer.Demon
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Posted 26 October 2001 - 09:04
Originally posted by Takahashi
OK, sure Hockenheim is no classic, and yes its long treks out into the forest: (1) aren't hugely safe, (2) make the marshals' job more difficult, and (3) don't allow many spectators outside of the stadium (and therefore brings in less $$$) ...
(4) don't allow for radio and telemetry communication for the whole of the lap as the nearby USAF base takes offense to signals that are strong enough to reach the Ostkurve (or what's left of it). Yes, Americans running the show in Germany are really the main reason for shortening the track!
So tower-to-jet fighter communication wins it over pit-to-car communication.
#8
Darren Galpin
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Posted 26 October 2001 - 09:06
However, if you went back a few years and only allowed the cars to transmit their telemetry to the pit wall when they passed it, then you wouldn't have so much of a problem........
#9
nrp
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Posted 26 October 2001 - 11:10
Oh dear, yet another characterful circuit butchered.
It now looks like there are only a couple of fast points on the circuit - the beginning of the old first straight after Turn 1, and the spectator-friendly straight between the new Turn 2 and the hairpin.
What on earth is that wiggle between the hairpin and the Motodrom? If that bit were straight, then there would be a chance that cars would keep a low downforce, and therefore have a chance of dodgy handling providing interesting racing. As it is, they'll all be running medium downforce, and we'll have another new Nurburgring procession.
About the only interesting thing will be whether teams decide to stop once or twice.
OK, Hockenheim has some problems with the length of the old course and the forest, but I don't like this solution.
What would other readers of the forum like to have seen?
I'd have made turn 2 much tighter, turning back along itself for a short way, before a 90-degree turn. The new spectator-friendly "straight" would have been much straighter, before reaching the new hairpin. Then the wiggle between the hairpin and the Motodrom would just have been a straight line. This would have give the "slow corner, fast straight, slow corner" approach that's worked so well at Sepang.
-- Neil
It now looks like there are only a couple of fast points on the circuit - the beginning of the old first straight after Turn 1, and the spectator-friendly straight between the new Turn 2 and the hairpin.
What on earth is that wiggle between the hairpin and the Motodrom? If that bit were straight, then there would be a chance that cars would keep a low downforce, and therefore have a chance of dodgy handling providing interesting racing. As it is, they'll all be running medium downforce, and we'll have another new Nurburgring procession.
About the only interesting thing will be whether teams decide to stop once or twice.
OK, Hockenheim has some problems with the length of the old course and the forest, but I don't like this solution.
What would other readers of the forum like to have seen?
I'd have made turn 2 much tighter, turning back along itself for a short way, before a 90-degree turn. The new spectator-friendly "straight" would have been much straighter, before reaching the new hairpin. Then the wiggle between the hairpin and the Motodrom would just have been a straight line. This would have give the "slow corner, fast straight, slow corner" approach that's worked so well at Sepang.
-- Neil
#10
oldtimer
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Posted 27 October 2001 - 21:07
[
About the only interesting thing will be whether teams decide to stop once or twice.
-- Neil [/B][/QUOTE]
And see the bill-boards for an entire lap:D
About the only interesting thing will be whether teams decide to stop once or twice.
-- Neil [/B][/QUOTE]
And see the bill-boards for an entire lap:D
#11
Vitesse2
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Posted 27 October 2001 - 21:27
There is an on-line petition attempting to stop this emasculation of Hockenheim, which can be signed here:
http://www.petitiono...1/petition.html
It may not do any good, but at least you can register a protest and make yourself feel better about it!!
http://www.petitiono...1/petition.html
It may not do any good, but at least you can register a protest and make yourself feel better about it!!
#12
Roger Clark
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Posted 27 October 2001 - 21:39
How standards change! Who would have thought in 1970 that we would have a petition to save Hockenheim?
#13
Vitesse2
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Posted 27 October 2001 - 22:01
Very true Roger, but it is worth noting (as I'm sure you are aware:)) that, along with Monza and Spa, Hockenheim is one of only three pre-war circuits used for Formula 1. Even though the present layout is somewhat different to that of 1939, it should IMHO be retained. However, it seems it is being sacrificed to the great God of television:o
What would be horrifying would be any future petition to save the Hungaroring - I for one would be prepared to start one to get rid of it!!
What would be horrifying would be any future petition to save the Hungaroring - I for one would be prepared to start one to get rid of it!!
#14
Roger Clark
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Posted 27 October 2001 - 23:04
Originally posted by Vitesse2
Very true Roger, but it is worth noting (as I'm sure you are aware:)) that, along with Monza and Spa, Hockenheim is one of only three pre-war circuits used for Formula 1.
And Monaco of course. I agree that the emasculation of Hockenheim would be a pity because it's not not an identikit modern motor racing facility. It appears that the part they will retain is the part that fits the identikit. It's just that we should keep a sense of proportion.
#15
Vitesse2
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Posted 27 October 2001 - 23:32
Originally posted by Roger Clark
And Monaco of course.
I meant to say "road circuits" (he lied ...)
Originally posted by Roger Clark
It appears that the part they will retain is the part that fits the identikit. It's just that we should keep a sense of proportion.
Yes, the sixty to seventy lap identity kit! I wonder if there's a clause in the advertising contracts that says if you book the startline advertising hoardings they will guarantee a certain number of TV exposures ....
#16
BertlF
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Posted 28 October 2001 - 10:59
Originally posted by Vitesse2
Yes, the sixty to seventy lap identity kit! I wonder if there's a clause in the advertising contracts that says if you book the startline advertising hoardings they will guarantee a certain number of TV exposures ....
I'm sure ther is somthing along the line like you mentioned, maybe not in writing but in verbal agreements...;)
It's frightening to see how the circuits become more and more 'standardized' . Characteristics of certain tracks disappear and the challenge to learn new tracks is no more. Maybe that's the reason why more and more rookies can enter F1 without any major expirience?
I noted already striking similarities between the Indy F1 layout and Barcelona. If you look at the pure track layouts, they seem almost identical (no banked curve in Barcelona obviously...). I wonder if these developmets make the job for drivers and engineers simpler by facilitationg the setups. Maybe they are already using the same setup for Barcelona and Indy..
However, despite the fact that it is not a 'true classic', the 'old' Hockenheim will be sadly missed
Bert
#17
fines
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Posted 28 October 2001 - 14:30
I can't understand all the fuss! Hockenheim is, and has always been, an utterly boring circuit! Any changes can only be for the better! Having said that, I always believed they should have reintroduced the Ostkurve as it had been before 1982. By increasing the run-off there, which wouldn't have presented such a big problem, this corner would've presented one real challenge on an otherwise pretty featureless track. They didn't, so there goes. I won't shed a tear!
#18
Marco94
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Posted 29 October 2001 - 08:13
fines,
I absolutelly agree with you that the track is boring. But it has been said before: It nearly always produced one of the more interesting races in the past few F1 seasons! The combination of very high top speeds and slow speed chicanes, resulted in a lot of braking. And that's where things get interesting.
I absolutelly agree with you that the track is boring. But it has been said before: It nearly always produced one of the more interesting races in the past few F1 seasons! The combination of very high top speeds and slow speed chicanes, resulted in a lot of braking. And that's where things get interesting.
#19
Mike Argetsinger
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Posted 29 October 2001 - 17:55
A boring track? I hardly think so. With all respect to the views expressed above I am at a loss to understand just who was bored?!
Certainly not the spectators who always turned up in remarkable numbers for the great slip streaming F-2 battles of the 60's and 70's. And despite all the negativism about the GP being held there in '70 - it resulted in a brilliant race between Rindt and Ickx that people still talk about.
And certainly not the drivers - it just isn't possible to go that fast in those close quarters - and the great drafting opportunities - and be bored!
What Hockenheim has always suffered from is comparison to the Nurburgring. But it is hardly fair to write off Hockenheim for this reason. After all - doesn't almost any circuit come off poorly in comparison with the Ring? When the GP was moved there in 1970 - and finally for good in '77 - it was symbolic of the changing era. We all mourned it - the passing of the era of great circuits - but I think many journalists enjoyed portraying Hockenheim in as negative a light as possible to help make their point. This viewpoint has carried over and I believe is responsible for the negative views expressed here.
Now what I think is really sad are the planned changes for next year. This really will turn the place in to just another track. Much of its' great character lost.
Actually the circuit at Hockenheim has gone through many changes and evolutions since it first opened in 1932. It's a great place with a loyal following. I have never found it boring.
Certainly not the spectators who always turned up in remarkable numbers for the great slip streaming F-2 battles of the 60's and 70's. And despite all the negativism about the GP being held there in '70 - it resulted in a brilliant race between Rindt and Ickx that people still talk about.
And certainly not the drivers - it just isn't possible to go that fast in those close quarters - and the great drafting opportunities - and be bored!
What Hockenheim has always suffered from is comparison to the Nurburgring. But it is hardly fair to write off Hockenheim for this reason. After all - doesn't almost any circuit come off poorly in comparison with the Ring? When the GP was moved there in 1970 - and finally for good in '77 - it was symbolic of the changing era. We all mourned it - the passing of the era of great circuits - but I think many journalists enjoyed portraying Hockenheim in as negative a light as possible to help make their point. This viewpoint has carried over and I believe is responsible for the negative views expressed here.
Now what I think is really sad are the planned changes for next year. This really will turn the place in to just another track. Much of its' great character lost.
Actually the circuit at Hockenheim has gone through many changes and evolutions since it first opened in 1932. It's a great place with a loyal following. I have never found it boring.
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#20
fines
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Posted 29 October 2001 - 19:31
Who am I to argue with a REAL racing driver with first hand experience...
Ok so, the slipstreaming battles were definitely not boring, for sure. But I am hard taken to remember a really remarkable race there after 1970! Most of the time, only retirements led to any noteworthy changes in position. And I distinctly remember some drivers really complaining about the flat, featureless circuit. Patrick Depailler certainly did in 1979!
Ok so, the slipstreaming battles were definitely not boring, for sure. But I am hard taken to remember a really remarkable race there after 1970! Most of the time, only retirements led to any noteworthy changes in position. And I distinctly remember some drivers really complaining about the flat, featureless circuit. Patrick Depailler certainly did in 1979!
#21
Rediscoveryx
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Posted 30 October 2001 - 11:32
The 2000 and 1999 GPs were both excellent, as was the 1997 and 1994 ones. I also consider this years race to be one of the best of the season.
Next year it will just be like Magny-Cours
Next year it will just be like Magny-Cours
#22
nrp
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Posted 30 October 2001 - 16:16
Surely one of the great features of Hockenheim is its length, together with the two totally distinct flavours of the circuit (the Motodrom and the rest of it).
How many circuits on the calendar these days can offer anything like the end of the 2000 race, with the fast bit totally dry and the slow bit soaking wet? For once we got a display of driving (from Barrichello) rather than the usual who's-got-the-best-car race.
But now we're going to get another identikit circuit. I guess it's so that one of the two German GPs can be quietly dropped, as they'll be pretty similar to each other anyway ...
-- Neil
How many circuits on the calendar these days can offer anything like the end of the 2000 race, with the fast bit totally dry and the slow bit soaking wet? For once we got a display of driving (from Barrichello) rather than the usual who's-got-the-best-car race.
But now we're going to get another identikit circuit. I guess it's so that one of the two German GPs can be quietly dropped, as they'll be pretty similar to each other anyway ...
-- Neil
