36 replies to this topic

[Roger Clark]

I don't know how it is in other countries, but in Britain the cameras which now infest our roads are often referred to as Gatsos. Many people probably use this term without knowing that it refers to Maurice Gatsonides who was a very successful rally driver in the 1950s. He has, in fact been in the speed trap business for many years. Denis Jenkinson wrote this in 1960.

During the past season of Grand Prix racing on circuits in Europe two little rubber tubes have been appearing stretched across the track about 100 yards apart, looking rather like those rubber tubes that the Ministry of Transport put down on the road to count the flow of vehicles when making an investigation in road improvements. These tubes appeared at Zandvoort and Nurburgring amongst other places, and were coupled to an electrical device that ticked off hundredths of a second, thus giving the time taken for a car to pass through the measured distance and a conversion table gave the speeds in k.p.h. or m.p.h. as you wished. At Zandvoort for example, the faster cars were reaching just on 150 m.p.h. before they shut off for the hairpin beyond the pits. All this was the work of Maurice Gatsonides, the Dutchman who used to compete in rallies and races, and he has been very busy perfecting this time apparatus which he calls the Gatsometer. Now all this was good fun and instructive and it settled arguments and generally speaking did no one any harm and provided a lot of interest during the practice periods. However, I now find that the Grand Prix racing circus was merely being used as a guinea pig to perfect the mechanism before it was offered for sale. When I say that Gatsonides proudly announced that he had sold the design of his Gatsometer to the police forces of a number of European countries you will understand why I got hot under the collar and wondered whose side he was on. He gave me the rather fatuous answer that it was a very accurate instrument and that now when you got pinched for speeding there would be no question of error. Thanks very much Mr. Gatsonides, next time I am pinched for speeding in France or Belgium I'll know who to blame! The realisation that a speed trapping device has been designed by someone who I thought “was one of us" still leaves me rather incoherent. It is rather like coming face to face with the nonentity of a Civil Servant who actually drew up the master'copy of some of those infuriating and idiotic forms we have to fill in now and then. You read through them and think who on earth could have spent time-drawing up this little lot and then with a shock you meet Mr. Jones from the Ministry who was responsible. It was with just a shock that I listened to Gatsonides telling about his device to catch motorists speeding; and to think he used the Grand Prix boys to perfect it ! Words fail.

[Bernd]

I'm with Jenks. What a bastard!

[italia]

What nonsense to blame Maus!

As if it is safe to speed everywhere! I am very glad the police have a tool to check speed accurately at places with high accident risk, urban areas where children are playing, near schools, need I go on? That his device is also used on save places is not Gatsonides' fault!

[Frank de Jong]

As a countryman to Gatsonides, I'm with Italia (again!).
I've got my own secret weapon to deal with speding tickets. It's called a cruise control. You set it to the maximum speed allowed, and presto, no more speeding tickets.
Although the limits aren't always that logical or appropriate, it's all part of the game.
If you want to use your own limits and break the rules, go ahead and be careful. But don't blame Gatsonides if you got caught.

[Gary Davies]

Arguing with the logic of intelligent speed management is like arguing with motherhood. No, the distressing thing here is the cynical ways in which our various politicians, bureaucrats and police officers put M.Gatsonides' products and their derivatives to use and then tell us their only agenda is saving lives.

Vanwall

[dmj]

I will always like Gatso anyway, if only for his amazing and amusing road car of late '40s...

[fines]

One positive effect of the Gatso is that policemen are no longer allowed to "guess" speeds of traveling cars, at least in most civilized countries in the world (i.e. except Switzerland...). And anyway, I can't see the point of speeding on public roads - it's just plain stupid.

[David McKinney]

What's "speeding"?
Before I left NZ I used to drive frequently on lovely deserted roads with beautiful sweeping 70-80mph (110-130km/h) bends - and a speed limit of 50mph.

[italia]

IMO speeding means putting yourself and others at risk. In some urban areas that can be even at a lesser speed than the local limit, on highways it can be 50 km/h faster, without much other traffic, and looking far enough ahead. The biggest problem is that other road users don't expect such speeds, so you have to take that in account! If not you are guilty of road rage.
According to law speeding normally means ca. 5 km/h faster than the limit before you get a ticket (at least in NL, D and S).

Maus Gatsonides BTW is a colourful man. Produced his own cars late 30's until 1950. Like this Gatso Aero Coupé from 1948



Furthermore he became a well respected rally driver, winning the 1953 Monte Carlo Rally in a Ford Zephyr. In 1950 he finished 2nd in Monte Carlo with a Humber Super Snipe (more suited for funerals than rallies...). To honour that achievement, the Dutch national anthem was played. Last time that this happened for a non-winner in Monte Carlo!

[Felix Muelas]

Roger,

Thanks for the quote. Tipically Jenks

I am one of those people that simply love the refreshing and generally provocative approach of Denis Jenkinson. Not that I always agree with what he says (I am now thinking that he has some words on "Nostalgia" that are vitriolic, to say the least) but I like his dry sense of humour and the way he writes.

So I can only thank you for quoting him. We have seen how reactions are immediate. As it used to be!

Un abrazo

Felix

[Roger Clark]

I think all of us would agree that excessive speed should be punished severely. Many of us feel that marginal exceeding of speed limits is now being treated out of all proportion to the danger it involves. I would, however, ask you all to remember that Jenkinson wrote those words forty years ago when the world was very differentfrom now.

[Doug Nye]

Just rediscovered this thread - with its wonderful example of DSJ at his most logical, and therefore most socially unaware.

Just thought you'd like to share the story of the reaction shown by Jenks when seat belts were first made compulsory in the UK.

Jenks asked the postmistress in his village Post Office in Crondall, Hampshire - who was renowned for her knitting - to knit him a cream sweater with a diagonal dark grey stripe across it. "That'll fool the buggers", he said.

DCN

[Ray Bell]

That's just beautiful, Doug, even though I cannot agree with his reasoning or logic.

On the 'speeding' issue, however, I agree wholeheartedly. I echo David McKinney's words on the issue, and living in a country of vast proportions with enormous distances and relatively empty roads, it galls me the way the authorities are milking the motorist using these devices.

What makes it especially upsetting is the fact that state after state suffered jumps in their 'road toll' either when they changed from prima facie speed limits, that effectively let motorists set their own safe standard, to outright limits that forced some to increase their speed and others to drop theirs to the level of boredom (for them).

And a country where 'hard drinking' is revered so much that it's illegal for the cops to set up a random breath test at the exit from the pub carpark, but where the norm for speed cameras is at the bottom of long descents on intersection-free highways and freeways.

[Henri Greuter]

Well, I never knew Maus personally but I knew one of his buddies, Jan Apetz, a character in his own rights.
Jan was there when Maus got the idea how to develop the Gatsometer, this is how it happened according Apetz.

In the good old days, Dutch policemen measured speeds with a trap made out of three man: the first waived a flag or gave a signal, the second man started the chronometer and if the car arrived within a calculated amount of time de car had been speeding. The second man then signalled the third policeman to stop the car in question and cash the silverware.

One day, Gatsonises was driving way too fast again, Apetz as his pssenger with him and just too late they did see the waving policeman and they realised they had ran into the speedtrap. Inmediately, Gatsonides hit the brakes and crept over the rod, looking for the second policeman. Whe he found the man, fuming in anger about the failed speedmeasurement, Gatsonides asked with a voice as it was a daily routine matter:
"Excuse me sir, my friend and I have an argument about what the exact time it is right now. But I see you have a watch as well, can you by chance tell us exactly how late it is?"
Apetz almost blew the joke because of not knowing where to look anymore because of laughing himself near dead and the ploiceman was livid because he knew he was set up but had nothing to prove it with.
But that was the incident that made Gatsonides think about decent time and speed control equipment.
By the way, such skill of exact timing etc. was much needed in the rally events of the late 40's and '50's when Rallying wasn't all about raw speed only. Maus used the skill in his rally events like the coupe des alpes etc. too.


Henri Greuter

[hhh]

I knew Maus Gatsonides all my life and understand why a lot of people were angry about his Gatsometer. In fact he just came up with the idea at a time when his rallying carreer was over and his financial position wasn't very bright, so the Gatsometer gave him a new future.
He developed the Gatso for reasons mentioned earlier. Fact of the matter is, if it hadn't been for Maus someone else would have come up with a similar device.
The problem is the misuse by law enforcement, using the Gatso to collect money and not to control speeds in really dangerous areas.
He also developed sports timers for swimming and the red-light cameras.

[Ray Bell]

Well, nobody could complain about red light cameras, could they?

So did it solve his monetary problems?

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by italia
What nonsense to blame Maus!

As if it is safe to speed everywhere! I am very glad the police have a tool to check speed accurately at places with high accident risk, urban areas where children are playing, near schools, need I go on? That his device is also used on save places is not Gatsonides' fault!

All very commendable I am sure; so what's sensible about a speed camera working at 2:00 a.m. on a deserted six-lane dual carriageway - with a speed limit of 40 m.p.h?

The speed camera means that one is summarily punished - with no allowance for mitigation - something that was once the bedrock of our legal system

PdeRL

[Ray Bell]

Note that in italia's post he writes:

Originally posted by italia
That his device is also used on save places is not Gatsonides' fault!

Now let's look at what he means here...

First, we'll correct the spelling, understanding that English looks to be a second or third language to him:

"That his device is also used on safe places is not Gatsonides' fault!"

So, in fact, he is saying exactly what you would have said. That the devices are used to entrap people who are doing nothing unsafe, but are in technical breach of the law.

[Wolf]

I'm with DSJ on this one... I travel on my own speed limiter, but try to keep within 30kmh of speed limit to avoid having my driving license taken away (except in 40kph zones near schools &c- I can risk my life, but refuse to risk children's). Have been caught speeding a few times, but never go the ticket (*knock on hea.., ooops wood*)- presumably, no police officer wants to become laughing stock of precinct by giving a speeding ticket to a 24BHP car.

I mean, it's not my fault that nowdays drivers are so bad that they have to put a speed limit of 30kmh in a corner I can comfortably and safely take @ 60kph in said car. And I simply refuse to have all the pleasure taken away from my driving with such ridiculous speed limits. And I nevert had an accident in my life (had one spin, tho ), I hasten to add.

Back to the topic, I heard there was some fuss in Germany some time ago, when it was decided, or proposed, to let local authorities manage (and cash in on) speed traps in urban areas, instead of police (federal authorities). I seriously doubt that safety wise they'd be more competent to do so, but being politicians might opt to generate some increase in cash-flow and put them in 'safety irrelevant' spots that'd generate more income from tickets...

BTW, I think DSJ mostly 'objected' to member of fraternity (speed and racing enthusiasts) having being 'responsible' for taking away pleasure of speed from everyday rides of his 'brethern from said fraternity'...

[Henri Greuter]

I never knew 'Gatso' personally but his buddy Jan Apetz, quite a character in his own rights, was a friend of mine. (And I am proud of the privilege to say he was a friend of mine) He was there with Gatsonides when he got the idea for developing the Gatsometers and here's the story as Apetz told it to me.

In the good old days, sppeding was verigfied by three policemen: the first to give a signal to the second man to start a chronometer. When the car arrived before the calculated time, the car had been speeding, the secaon policeman then signalled the third man to stop the car and cash the silverware

One day, Gatso drove way too fast with Apetz as a passenger and they just noticed the first policeman, probalby having given a signal. Gatsonides instantly locke up the brakes and toured to the second policeman, indeed standing there with a chronometer.
Gotso opende the window of the car and then asked the overwhelmed policeman:
Ëxcuse me sir but my friend and I have a disagreement abot what is the actual time. Now I see you are holding a clock in your hand, can you tell me how late it is according you?"
The policeman fuming about the fact he was fooled, Apetz had no idea where to look anymore because of near dying of laughing....

That incident hower put Gatsonides thinking about how to measure speed and time and he became quite a specialist in it, Remember, in the early days of rallying, not all stages were about outright speeds. Regularity and driving at exact specified averages was required as well and Maus was very good in that, mostly because of his inventions as well as those of his companion Bud Bakker-Schut.


Henri Greuter

[Vrba]

I know I'm minority here but I never understood or liked Jenks (I could start now with "another myth" story but I won't :-)). Similar as with Stirling Moss, I agree they were both good at their jobs but I find them very hard to like or even to agree with.
This is the same situation once again. While I consider myself an anarchist and as such cannot find a nice word for any authority, I respect the need to obey traffic rules and speed limits simply because I don't want to end up run over by someone and don't want to run over anyone. Road is road and track is track. Who wants to drive on the limit could always go to a racetrack and do whatever he or she wants.

Hrvoje

[mat1]

Originally posted by Vrba
I know I'm minority here but I never understood or liked Jenks (I could start now with "another myth" story but I won't :-)). Similar as with Stirling Moss, I agree they were both good at their jobs but I find them very hard to like or even to agree with.
This is the same situation once again. While I consider myself an anarchist and as such cannot find a nice word for any authority, I respect the need to obey traffic rules and speed limits simply because I don't want to end up run over by someone and don't want to run over anyone. Road is road and track is track. Who wants to drive on the limit could always go to a racetrack and do whatever he or she wants.

Hrvoje

I agree completely. All this jenks-stuff...

Concerning Gatsonides: I always liked the following story.

Gatsonides entered a slalom. As you know, you have to drive past posts as fast as possible, and if you hit a post, or if you miss one, you get penalty seconds added to your time.

Gatsonides looked, and, being a novide, asked whether he could start last, so he could learn from looking how the more experienced drivers were doing. This was granted.

When Gatsonides' turn came, he just blasted past the post, without even trying to slalom. Of course, he got the maximum amount of penalty seconds added, but event then, he was fastest. And won.

mat1

[hhh]

In the same sense there is another story showing that Maus Gatsonides was very good with the rule-book.
In the 60's there was the International Economy Rally organized by one of the oil companies (I think it was Caltex) in which Maus used to participate.
There were complicated formulas to re-calculate the fuel consumption based on the car's weight, engine size, fuel used etc.
One year, when Maus entered a Citroen DS19, the weight of his car didn't calculate too well. No changes from standard were allowed, apart from "navigation equipment" , normally things like a speedmaster/tripmaster etc.
Maus added a compass.............from a ship, weighing something like 80 kgs which brought him just over the limit of his class and giving better results for the calculated fuel mileage.
The other competitors didn't like this at all and found his solution against the spirit of the rules, but nobody could do something about it as it was within the regulations!
I believe he won the rally.

[mat1]

Originally posted by hhh
.
Maus added a compass.............from a ship,

mat1

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Vrba
I respect the need to obey traffic rules and speed limits simply because I don't want to end up run over by someone and don't want to run over anyone.

It's just that when you get an arrow-straight dual carriageway with no entrances and exits, and a downhill slope, and they put an intercoursing speed camera there with a 50 limit, you know that speed cameras are nothing to do with safety and everything to do with an additional tax.

Speed cameras should only be outside schools, by pedestrian crossings, at dangerous junctions, near traffic lights or any dangerous blackspots. Not on roads where it is safe to do 60 but some car hating bureaucrat has arbitrarily reduced freedom to 30.

[Garagiste]

Interesing timing for this thread to resurface - the Gatso as it stands is the least of our worries.
Yesterday it was announced that Plod are going to be testing digital speed cameras on the M42 this summer. No film to run out, so they can set the trigger speed lower and still catch everbody exceeding the limit.
If they also link the things so that the average speed can be calculated - well, it's game over.
Chuck in a GPS for the satnav and there is no escape from big brother, (whom I love, just in case he's reading...)

[Ray Bell]

Way behind the times...

The New South Wales Gov't has had speed cameras on sticks for a couple of years now... and one of them is reaping a bonanza!

It's on The Spit Bridge between Balgowlah and Mosman, a straight stretch of 6-lane arterial road with no huge record of fatalities that I know about. Certainly not on the bit where the camera is located.

It apparently shoots off a booking every seven seconds!

Talk about a money-spinner...

[Garagiste]

Yes, in one way I'm surprised it's taken this long for digicams to be introduced. OTOH, only now are they starting to implement the "dip and PIN" method for debit card payments, which was operational in Denmark when I visited five years ago...

[Gary Davies]

What strikes me as so very tragic, here in Oz at least, is that the faceless ones' monotonous and unrelenting emphasis on speed is dumbing down the whole debate on road safety. It's as though they can only think to say: "Don't bother about engaging your mind, sport ... just obey the posted speed limit and she'll be sweet."

And since we're momentarily off motor sport may I enquire of our British residents what a "failed road" may be. This sign was spotted in deepest Oxfordshire on a trip to visit the folks a year or two back. The road in question was a narrowish country lane that as far as I was concerned did a perfectly satisfactory job of leading me to a charming pub for lunch!

[bill moffat]

obviously an issue which raises much debate and many arguments for and against the colourful little boxes.

TNF'ers may be aware of a certain amount of activity in Holland which has reduced the number of (surviving) Dutch roadside cameras. Gatsos in Holland have the curious habit of catching fire, falling over or generally becoming unserviceable. For more information go to www.tuftufclub.com

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by bill moffat
.....For more information go to www.tuftufclub.com

Interesting site... shame I can't read a word...

Oh, except for 'radar' and 'laser' of course!

[Gary Davies]

Originally posted by Ray Bell


Interesting site... shame I can't read a word...

Oh, except for 'radar' and 'laser' of course!

Ray methinks you were still half asleep at 0628 this morning. The site has an "English" link that takes you here - http://www.tuftufclu...glish/index.htm

[Ray Bell]

While I don't condone damaging public property at all... I have to say the pictures depict something I would like to see.

I wonder how long it will be before that starts happening throughout NSW? And how long after that there will be security cameras on the speed cameras!

[stuartbrs]

A friend of mine was once looking out the top floor window of the TAFE building he was studying in when he noticed a speed camera sitting down on the road below. Here in tasmania the mobile ones arent manned by police, but by civil servants. This particular camera was in a very naughty place, and my mate got a bit peeved. Noticing that the bloke manning the camera was asleep in his car my friend decided that something must be done. He went down to where the camera was, sneaking by the car with the sleeping civil servant, and taped a piece of paper over the lense of the camera. The actuall laser beam was unaffected but of course, everytime it went off all it got was a blank photo. They then spent a very merry afternoon watching this little camera ping dozens of motorists to ill effect untill the civil servant awoke from his slumber and discovered the little prank that had been played on him. Even the police woman which turned up to take a look found it very amusing.

The other afternoon I was travelling up a highway which I frequent every day. This highway goes up a very steep hill, has 2 lanes coming down, and 2 going up, seperated by a huge wall. The limit is 80kph and maybe 2 or 3 times a week there is an accident coming DOWN the hill, cars following too closely and whacking the car in front when someone decides on a suicidal lane change, normally there is a chain reaction involving 3 to 4 cars, this happens regularly. In 15 years of driving UP the hill, Ive yet to witness an accident, a few breakdowns maybe, but NEVER an accident. Can you guess where the police were that afternoon with their radar guns?? Yep, pinging cars coming UP the hill, 2 police cars, 2 bikes and 6 cops....
The thing with going up the hill, is that most cars need a little bit of a runup, its one of those hills that your car never really seems to be geared quite right for, 3rd gear is thrashing at 80, 4th gear isnt quite enough. This hill isnt in a builtup area in anyway, because of the steepness of it the car stops in about half the distance it normally takes, but its common knowledge that almost everyone nudges 100kph on the way up. I was so livid, I almost stopped to ask them what the hell they were doing there?? The accidents happened on the other side of the road, where people were coming down..if they wanted to make it safer why werent they on the other side looking for bad and dangerous driving?! thats what kills people, and causes thousands of dollars of carnage each month, but no, the revenue raised on the up side of the hill was too great a temptation!
This whole speed kills thing that is being pounded here in Australia is a front and justification the government use for their "voluntary" tax scheme. The madness of different speed zones wih no reason or logic whatsoever is verging on a rort. The road I live in has 3 schools and a childcare centre on it, they bought in this 50kph in residential zones limit because of "dangers to children"..well, guess what limit my road stayed at? yep, 60kmh???!!!! And we`ve had 3 serious smashes and a near fatality this year alone on it, but it doesnt get changed. Not only that, but on one of the school zones theyve painted glossy white stripes about 2 metres accross on the steepest part of the hill, imediatley before a turnoff. Guess what happens in the wet?? Yep, severe understeer and no grip, even at 40kph you couldnt stop the car on those strips if a child or pedestrian or car steps out in front of you... I despair, the government has NO intention of reducing the road toll, merely to raise as much revenue as they can from us before we become another victim of stupid driving and dumbass roads.

[vivafroilan!]

Hello,
I have to start my first post with a heartfelt THANK YOU!,to each of you. I've been lurking in awed glee on this wonderful forum for a couple years now, wondering if the time would ever come when I felt I had something of value to contribute...
It still hasn't really, but I thought I'd find this thread and append this (apparently true) item I came across tonight in the 'Odds & Ends' section of the Weekly Alibi (an Albuquerque, New Mexico newspaper).

"Dateline: Belgium -- Police have let a motorist off the hook after his car was clocked by radar going Mach 3. The motorist was issued an automated speeding ticket for going 2,100 miles per hour in his Mini Cooper late last year. Police, admitting that it is unlikely the motorist was traveling at three times the speed of sound, have apologized for the mistake. Belgian newspaper La Derniere Heure said the alleged speeding incident happened in December, but only came to light when the ticket was sent out this month. Prosecutors asked to follow up on the unpaid fine said, 'We called the local police to find out what height the plane caught speeding along the Boulevard Lambermont was flying at.' After the call, police apologized to the motorist and promised to make sure the faulty radar was repaired."

(If this had shown up in another thread already, my apologies for not finding that...)
Thanks,
Russ Cole

[Patrice L'Rodent]

Quote Ray Bell "And how long after that there will be security cameras on the speed cameras!"

Already has Ray. The camera a few miles up the hill from where I live (Valley Heights) had a little accident a while ago. Somehow a tyre ended up on top of it and must have spontaneously combusted, much to the delight of the upper Mountains commuters. Despite the fact that potholes take forever to get fixed, the camera was up and running again in quick time, and this time it had a friend...a surveillance camera on a nearby utility pole. Take a look next time you go by.

Pat D'Rat

[Vitesse2]

Note for anyone travelling to or through the Bath/Bristol area: some local Gatsos now have security cameras on them (who watches the watchman?) after several incidents where tyres or cans of fuel have mysteriously spontaneously combusted in their vicinity (and something alleged to be dynamite allegedly went "Bang" in one!). In addition there are mobile cameras, usually set up in or near unmarked white vans (the vans are often parked illegally in bus or cycle lanes or on pavements or traffic islands BTW). One mobile camera was pictured recently in the local press being operated from a bus shelter!

Oh, and they use unmarked cars with hand-held cameras on the M4 and M5 ....

Then of course there are the parking attendants who leave their vans on double yellow lines while booking people for overstaying at meters .... the parking attendants' boss who was let off a ticket ....