41 replies to this topic

[pRy]

"Michelin motorsport boss Pierre Dupasquier has claimed that Ferrari used chemically enhanced Bridgestone tyres in the final two rounds of the season, helping Michael Schumacher put on what the Frenchman described as "incomprehensible" performances in both qualifying and the race."

Not sure if this is covered in the FIA regs or not.

[30ft penguin]

Case of sour grapes, because the Michelin tyres always sucked during the early laps of the races ?

[karlth]

Noteworthy that Michelin is saying the Ferrari used the special Bridgestone tyres. If true that only Ferrari had those tyres I'm not sure how pleased the other Bridgestone customers are.

[Todd]

I suppose he didn't have the attention span to find out what happened to Jack Rousch when he went down this road. Why the heck would Ferrari risk a rules infraction after clinching both titles? How would Michelin know that Ferrari was incomprehensibly fast when the Michelin shod Williams were practically on a par with the Ferraris at Indy? Does that mean that Michelin was cheating so the only way Ferrari could beat them was to cheat? Wasn't it McLaren that won in Indy? Would it be a bad idea to attack McLaren while you are trying to get their business? I have purchased Michelin tires for years. I'll shop around next time.

[King Sputum]

If someone is cheating, somehow I am not surprised if it is Ferrari.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Tire chemicals are banned in series where there is only one tire supplier. In a tire war the tire is pretty much allowed to do whatever it wants with its tires as long as they meet the physical dimension requirements.

[Smooth]

Noticed he never made mention of Michelins ability to wear the grooves off of their tires and run as slicks......

What a load, or maybe he was talking about the tire dressing Ferrari used to shine 'em up so they looked better in the pictures.

[philhitchings]

:yawn: here we go again :yawn: Ferrari cheat threads come in all shapes and sizes I suppose.

Besides doesn't it deflect the scrutiny on the Michelin slicks

[Arrow]

I wish people would post the complete article.You skipped the best part.

From the Indianapolis race there has been a particular smell from Ferrari's tyres. Everyone knows that certain products used to speed up performances generate this.

Fromt the part you posted it makes out they just suspected bridgestone must be illegal only because of michaels performaces.

[King Sputum]

The best way to stop cheating threads is to stop cheating. But I think that the teams can sleep their nights well even if here's is some childish mocking in this forum.

[30ft penguin]

Originally posted by Arrow
I wish people would post the complete article.You skipped the best part.

Not to forget this one, which you left out, too:

"How else can you explain Schumacher's incredible early laps (in the US and Japanese GPs)? "

So he only wondered about Michael's pace during the early laps, nothing else.

And this even though it's a known fact that the Michelin tyres do not work (i.e. they are several seconds a lap slower) when they are still relatively fresh - the whole year, the Williams started very, very slow and then got faster later on. So why exactly is it that he wonders why Michael, once he was in front of the Williams, lapped that fast ? Bridgestone tyres=fast when new, Michelin tyres=slow when new. Translates into two seconds per lap faster Bridgestone for the initial laps, then the Bridgestones get slower and the Michelins faster.

[pRy]

Originally posted by Arrow
I wish people would post the complete article.You skipped the best part.

Fromt the part you posted it makes out they just suspected bridgestone must be illegal only because of michaels performaces.

Which part of that quote mentions Rubens Barrichello?

[Manson]

What a load of crap. Tire "softener" can not make tires softer than they were originally designed to be. The correct term should be "rejuvenator". Treating used tires will bring them back close to their original softness. After a certain amount of heat cycles, even that won't work. Treating a new tire is a complete waste of time. I use "rejuvenator" all the time on my used tires. I get more laps on them and have decent practice tires that aren't as far off new ones. When the new tires go on, the setup doesn't go out the window. I have no problem with the use of such chemicals even in spec tire divisions. It's too often used as an excuse by the losers.

[ffiloseta]

Cheating would make sense -if at all- when you are losing. How can Ferrari be remotely interested in cheating ? Besides, Indy was won by a McLaren.

This guys are "resollando por la herida" (sort of "speaking out of the wound").

[thornwell]

Chemicals?

Oh my!!

I thought tires were only made of pure rubber.

What a rude awakening.

[BertlF]

Firstly, IF such a chemical treatment was made available for Ferrari only, it's illegal. The regulations state clearly, that the tyres of one manufacturer during a weekend must be distributed randomly to all the teams this manufacturer is supplying. By this it is ensured that all the competitiors have equal opportunities and nobody can use 'special tyres'.

However it's known that racing tyres during their first 'heating up phase' start to release certain chemicals in the compound ('sweating' effect), making them probably 'extra sticky' for a few laps. Remember, Schumacher did not use all hsi tyres in practice in Japan and left some fresh rubber for the race...

It's therefore certainly thinkable that Schumacher used his Bridgestones to his full advantage (which he has done all year long by the way....)

Bert

[King Sputum]

I think that it wasn't necessary cheating. Maybe MS has a permission to use the "super liquid" from his best friend BE. If you have permission, it's not cheating.

Does anyone know does this super liquid work on bike? I could then make it a bit faster to get to office.

[miniman]

Pathetic comments from Dupasquier. Michelin should concentrate on improving their own product rather than throw smoke screens to mask the inadequacy of their own product. And the accusations are based on the smell of Bridgestione rubber? He must be sniffing too much cheap wine at Clermont-Ferrand

[Peeko]

That's ridiculous. Why the hell didn't Rubens have this stuff??


Sore loser.

[Alien]

You guys complain too much!!! Nobody is attacking Ferrari, Dupasquier is saying something about the Bridgestone tyres. Something like "I´ve discovered your secret, beware!!!"

Michelin has made good tyres this season, they have beaten Bridgestone several times. If Bridgestone used chemical treated tyres so be it, I´m sure that Michelin will try it too next season. And yes Shcumacher was surprisingly fast at Suzuka, everybody on the paddock said that the tyres where the difference.

Anyways i found all of this "sweating tyre" stuff extra-interesting.

[King Sputum]

Now I undestood what is the "super liquid". It is Schowmachers sweat, which is (of course) magical and makes everything super-fast. That's why we have also this "sweating tyres" effect.

(I sometimes wonder why I post these ... ...)

[MortenF1]

Hey, 30ft penguin! So why aren't the other good Bridgestone-shod teams "several seconds a lap faster" compared with Williams then??
But, actually, maybe this is true- Ferrari has got tires that's three secs faster than say McLaren. Still, MS can only outqualify them by a few tenths!

[goGoGene]

I have to admit, after looking at the forix graphs of the race MS's first laps are unlike any race laps I've ever seen. Instead of a gradually increasing slope (dropping lap times) as the tires warm, and the tank empties, MS's performance chart starts out at maximum slope and stays there, pretty much equal to JPM's best toward the end of his stint.

If I'd ever seen MS, or anyone, do this before I'd think it was simply an amazing start, but there seems to be something to this.

And why give it to MS who has already won the season in dominant style? [devil's advocate]Because if RB had similar performance we'd know that the fix was in. With MS we just figure he dominated this year, and he's continuing to dominate, no news. But this allows Bridgestone a chance to experiment for next season in a real race situation.[/devil's advocate]

Interesting idea, not sure if I believe it, but there does seem something there. The tire war should be interesting next year. I wonder if there is anything against the rules if Bridgestone sends tires and "chemical goo" to all teams next year. In that case everyone gets equal treatment. Would it be legal to do this? I'd think that it would. (until it's made ilegal).

ggg

[DEVO]

If this is true, then I for one applaud Bridgestone for their innovation.

Michelin could have done the same.

[Todd]

Originally posted by goGoGene
I have to admit, after looking at the forix graphs of the race MS's first laps are unlike any race laps I've ever seen. Instead of a gradually increasing slope (dropping lap times) as the tires warm, and the tank empties, MS's performance chart starts out at maximum slope and stays there, pretty much equal to JPM's best toward the end of his stint.

If I'd ever seen MS, or anyone, do this before I'd think it was simply an amazing start, but there seems to be something to this.

What supports your claim? That Schumacher set his fastest lap on the 29th lap of the race, right in the middle of his second set of tires, just as Ralf set his fastest time in the middle of his last set of Michelins? That his fastest lap was slower than the fastest laps of Ralf, Rubens, and Juan? That Rubens was able to attack Ralf on the first lap, but his advantage over the Williams almost immediately evaporated? That Juan prevented Rubens from demonstrating the speed of new tires at the start, but he was quick after his first pit stop? Actually, none of this supports the idea that MS's car was suspicious or different from Rubens' car, even though it was on a different fuel strategy and had a different monocoque.

It might be more reasonable to conclude that it took a few laps for the Michelins to come in. Micheal's tires were very consistent. That isn't always the case, but it looks like his tires degraded at a rate which roughly offset the advantages of his lightening fuel load. This can also be a function of set up. By emphasizing the importance of lapping quickly on full tanks when he picked spring and damper settings, he would also have seen the chassis' contribution to lap times drop off during his fuel load. Assuming it was something sinister is simply petty. In Winston Cup, Jack Rousch tried this excuse for getting his butt kicked by Jeff Gordon. Once Jeff's tires were all inspected in a lab, there was nothing found except egg all over Jack's face.

[Hoss]

What if the message was ment to be to MacLaren who didn't choose their tires for 2002?

What if Michelin is trying to say to MacLaren they are not getting a fair chance from Bridgestone? And lure a big team to join Michelin?

[Todd]

Originally posted by Hoss
What if the message was ment to be to MacLaren who didn't choose their tires for 2002?

What if Michelin is trying to say to MacLaren they are not getting a fair chance from Bridgestone? And lure a big team to join Michelin?

That is an interesting perspective, but why do you suppose they bothered to make the claim for Indy? After all, McLaren made better use of the Bridgestones than Ferrari did there.

[Mr Melvin]

I don't know why people are criticising Michelin, after all it was Bridgestone who started off whining. Have Michelin broken any rules? No. Have Bridgestone broken any rules? No. Lets face it, neither have done anything wrong.

[HSJ]

Originally posted by King Sputum
If someone is cheating, somehow I am not surprised if it is Ferrari.

Exactly. And you can bet FIA will look the other way.

[HSJ]

Originally posted by Alien
You guys complain too much!!! Nobody is attacking Ferrari, Dupasquier is saying something about the Bridgestone tyres. Something like "I´ve discovered your secret, beware!!!"

Exactly my thoughts. It should be obvious, even.

Next year should be interesting, both Michelin and Bstone trying to out do each other. I think this year was just a warm up for next year.

Best tyres will probaly win the titles next year.

[Smooth]

Originally posted by Alien
You guys complain too much!!! Nobody is attacking Ferrari, Dupasquier is saying something about the Bridgestone tyres. Something like "I´ve discovered your secret, beware!!!"

Originally posted by HSJ


Exactly my thoughts. It should be obvious, even.

Next year should be interesting, both Michelin and Bstone trying to out do each other. I think this year was just a warm up for next year.

Best tyres will probaly win the titles next year.

Read the quote again. I have highlighted the relevant part.

"Michelin motorsport boss Pierre Dupasquier has claimed that Ferrari used chemically enhanced Bridgestone tyres in the final two rounds of the season, helping Michael Schumacher put on what the Frenchman described as "incomprehensible" performances in both qualifying and the race."

This is not an allegation directed at B'stone directly. 'It should be obvious, even'.

[ZZMS]

Aren't tires distributed arbitrary between the teams before the weekend to avoid "special" tires for one team???

The Michelin's claim is bullshit.

Besides.... I fail to see why Ferrari and MS in particular would want to cheat at Indy onwards having won both Championships long ago??

[KenC]

Originally posted by Todd
I suppose he didn't have the attention span to find out what happened to Jack Rousch when he went down this road. Why the heck would Ferrari risk a rules infraction after clinching both titles? How would Michelin know that Ferrari was incomprehensibly fast when the Michelin shod Williams were practically on a par with the Ferraris at Indy? Does that mean that Michelin was cheating so the only way Ferrari could beat them was to cheat? Wasn't it McLaren that won in Indy? Would it be a bad idea to attack McLaren while you are trying to get their business? I have purchased Michelin tires for years. I'll shop around next time.

And, "I suppose [you] didn't have the attention span to find out what" Dupasquier was actually referring to?

He said, "How else can you explain Schumacher's incredible early laps (in the US and Japanese GPs)? " So, I'll suppose we can just throw out that whole rubbish about McLaren winning at Indy, since that had nothing to do with Dupasquier's comments.

Now if you buy Michelin products because they are good products, why are you now going to "shop around"? Because their race director is an idiot? This sounds like cutting off one's nose to spite the face.

Now, It is not unheard of to chemically treat one's tires to enhance performance for a few laps. Having said that, do I think Ferrari would do it? Heck no. As several people have noted, Ferrari had already clinched the Constructor's and Driver's Championships. They have shown all season long that the new Bridgestones are much faster than the Michelins, even scrubbed Michelins, for the first 3 to 8 laps. In this case, Suzuka, the gap in performance seems to be particularly large; however, there was a contributing factor. Whenever there is an on-track battle, with a pass, the laps are invariably slower, as the drivers drive non-optimal laps, to protect their line, etc. Recall, Juan was passed by Rubens, and repassed Rubens on Lap 2. This proximity of Rubens would surely have affected those first few laps, until Juan could pull out a small gap.

In my opinion, Dupasquier is wrong, the big difference in qualifying was probably due to the new and superior sidewall construction of the Bridgestone allowing Schumi to outperform the field thru the esses. Remember, Bridgestone had plenty of opportunity to create a Suzuka Special tire. And, the early lap gap, was due to the traditional difference between the Michelin and Bridgestone in the early laps, plus the battle between Rubens and Juan.

[30ft penguin]

Originally posted by race addicted
Hey, 30ft penguin! So why aren't the other good Bridgestone-shod teams "several seconds a lap faster" compared with Williams then??

Because they got stuck behind other cars ? Because their car is not good enough to take advantage of the performance the tyres are capable of ? Because they chose a bad strategy ? I don't know - all I know is that MS was able to overtake the Williams at the start of the race and get away in clean air, while Rubens - on the same tyres - was not able to overtake Juan, and so his performance advantage evaporated. Don't you think Ferrari would have used the same "wonder tyres" later on when they put fresh tyres on Michael's car at the pit stop ? Still, Michael got stuck behind Mika and could not use the performance advantage. And if you look at the fastest race laps, the teams are pretty close to each other. So IMO it is not a case of Ferrari having wonder tyres, it is simply a case of Williams being really slow at the start - but fast enough where it was necessary to keep the other ones behind, except for Michael. And that's why Michael got away in front.

But, actually, maybe this is true- Ferrari has got tires that's three secs faster than say McLaren. Still, MS can only outqualify them by a few tenths!

You should get your facts straight. The Michelin tyres are good when they are new, then they drop severely in performance for several laps, then they come back again strongly. So the Williams had the same performance in qualifying, but they could not risk starting the race on fresh tyres, because then they would have looked even worse after the first one or two laps of the race. The speed difference simply was due to Ferrari starting on fresh tyres vs. Williams starting on used ones.

JPM: "I think we're going to have to work really hard on the tyres during the winter to make sure we will be able to run new tyres because it seems that if we don't really scrub the tyres, we're not competitive. I spent yesterday all day scrubbing tyres and that really cost us."

JPM: "As you could see, Rubens was on new tyres, I was on old tyres and the first few laps, as Michael says, there's a huge difference. He got by me into the chicane, but he sacrificed the exit and I had a good run at him into turn one and passed him again. Since then, my tyres began to come back a little bit and I managed to pull away from him and that was it really."

[MortenF1]

Uh, my comment on MS/Ferrari was meant to be a joke, penguin. Happy landing!

[30ft penguin]

Originally posted by race addicted
Uh, my comment on MS/Ferrari was meant to be a joke, penguin. Happy landing!

Don't joke about MS penguins can be pretty nasty when you do that ...

[berge]

great. steroids enhanced bridgestones versus bald michelins.
love those grooved tires. what a wonderful idea.
which genius thought of them?

[tombr]

From the Indianapolis race there has been a particular smell from Ferrari's tyres.

Easy explaination for this. Ferrari did a lot of field testing while they were in Indiana. Being from the American mid-west, I can attest to the fact that there are a lot of cows in those Indiana fields. I saw several references to "bull-****" in some of the posts on this thread. BINGO!!!

[Alien]

Originally posted by Smooth

Read the quote again. I have highlighted the relevant part.

"Michelin motorsport boss Pierre Dupasquier has claimed that Ferrari used chemically enhanced Bridgestone tyres in the final two rounds of the season, helping Michael Schumacher put on what the Frenchman described as "incomprehensible" performances in both qualifying and the race."

This is not an allegation directed at B'stone directly. 'It should be obvious, even'.

Still i don´t know what the fuss is about, there is no rule against this, nobody can accuse Ferrari of something that is not illegal. I´m sorry but this quote isn´t accusing Ferrari of anything, maybe the other one does. Ferrari fans should stop complaining so much.

[Mrv]

Originally posted by Peeko
That's ridiculous. Why the hell didn't Rubens have this stuff??


Sore loser.

Rubens did have the stuff, he was supposed to put it on the tires instead of drinking it.

[Mrv]

Originally posted by Todd


That is an interesting perspective, but why do you suppose they bothered to make the claim for Indy? After all, McLaren made better use of the Bridgestones than Ferrari did there.

Yes but Bridgestone screwed up and the potioned tires went to Mclaren instead.

[A3]

Originally posted by Alien


Still i don´t know what the fuss is about, there is no rule against this, nobody can accuse Ferrari of something that is not illegal.

exactly.

Funny how no one mentioned the following quote from Pierre Dupasquier:

Seeing as nobody has complained about it, we will adapt our approach accordingly

Meaning they'll do the same thing if the rules won't change.