35 replies to this topic

[Megatron]

OK, So this is what we are sure of.

From 1967 to 1985, cars powered by the Cosworth V8 were "offically" called Ford in Formula One.

But...

What of their Indy car status? The Cosworth won Indy 10 years in a row, and although most people refer to these as "Cosworths", but I have seen occasions where Ford is refered to as the manufacturer and even (rarely) seen Ford decals on the engine cover of a few Champ cars.

And then their long distance career. I know the DFV was revised and put into many sports cars during the 70s, and even won Le Mans as late as 1980. Were these listed as a win for Ford or Cosworth?

A similar stituation might happen next year. If Panoz play their cards right, then they might challenge Audi at Le Mans? If they were to win, would the victory go to Ford? Ford's engine is in the car, but I hardly think of it as a factory effort, as the last time Panoz ran any insignia from Ford was in 1999.

[David M. Kane]

Under the terms which Ford provided Cosworth the seed money to
do the engine project, they got the badging rights for F1 only.
In the infancy of the project it had not been foreseen by Ford that the engine could be used for anything else. The engine saw the light of day in 1967 after going from design to production in a very short period of time.

I can't answer to the Panoz issue, I'm sure Niki will find a way
to "Rahal" them.

[Joe Fan]

Ford bought Cosworth a few years ago so a win at Le Mans by a Panoz-Cosworth should be considered a Ford win IMO.

[Roger Clark]

THe ownership of Cosworth is quite complex. My understanding is that when VAG bought Rolls-Royce Motors from Vickers they also bought Cosworth. Shortly afterwards they sold Cosworth Racing to Ford. cosworth Racing is the division of Cosworth which designs and builds the racing engines. That presumably leaves VAG owning the production engine research and manufacturing business. Can anybody confirm whether this is so?

I always thought that the sports car derivatives of the DFV were known as Fords and it was only the CART versions that were labelled Cosworth. However, modern Cosworth built champ car engines are always known as Fords.

All a very long way from the simplicity of the operation runby Keith Duckworth! Remeber is "Jewish accounting methods?" We should, I suppose be thankful that today's F1 cars are not Jaguar-Fords.

[fines]

... but they're Jaguar/Cosworths instead!

I think Roger's right, the DFL and DFZ had also Ford cam covers, but not the DFX. Ford financed the later XB Indy engines, so they had Ford covers as well.

[moog101]

Originally posted by Roger Clark
THe ownership of Cosworth is quite complex. My understanding is that when VAG bought Rolls-Royce Motors from Vickers they also bought Cosworth. Shortly afterwards they sold Cosworth Racing to Ford. cosworth Racing is the division of Cosworth which designs and builds the racing engines. That presumably leaves VAG owning the production engine research and manufacturing business. Can anybody confirm whether this is so?

It is so!

[moog101]

Somewhat surprisingly they also still work on the same road in Northampton, England. I bet VAG and Ford have kittens each Friday when the employees get together in the pub

[Wolf]

Moog- I don't think thoat collaboration betwixt the two should feel aarkward for either; the companies previously worked together on Galaxy/Sharan project.

Roger's mention of RR reminded me of a raw deal company's gotten from German manufacturers. It is a shame that such a company should be wrecked in the rivalry... BTW, any info as to whether BMW really intends to produce Rollses?

[Vitesse2]

Car production for Royces ( ) will continue at Crewe AFAIK. However, VW are apparently setting up a factory at Goodwood to produce Bentleys.

[BRG]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Car production for Royces ( ) will continue at Crewe AFAIK. However, VW are apparently setting up a factory at Goodwood to produce Bentleys.

I think that it is actually the other way around - VAG's Bentley brand remains at Crewe, whilst BMW's RR brand goes to the new Chicester factory.

[Vitesse2]

OOPS:o

[Wolf]

The way I heard it VAG purchased both Bentley and Rolls, but BMW (owners of Rolls 'department' producing aviation engines) found out that Rolls Royce wasn't trademark in automotive department and registered the brand. So, VW owns Rolls factories and BMW the actual brand, but VAG is allowed to produce Rollses till 2002 when injunction takes place.

From what I gather, VAG will use Rolls Royce plants to produce Bentleys, whereas BMW is said to plan the building of factory to produce 'their' Rollses. Thanx Vitesse and BRG. But those BMW cars will never be the Rolls Royces to me, seing they have no continuity... But I guess brand new start for old marque is still better than renaming Benettons to Renaults and Stewarts to Jaguars. BTW, are we expected to refer to JYS as Sir Jackie Young Jaguar now?

[carlos.maza]

To make things worse. In 1980, the Saudia Williams' engines had "Cosworth" and not "Ford" on the valve cover.

Ford bought back Cosworth from Audi not long ago.

[Vitesse2]

Wolf, those of us in the know call 'em Royces: the name Rolls is just so common!!

[Wolf]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Wolf, those of us in the know call 'em Royces: the name Rolls is just so common!!

So, from what You say it seems only fitting that I call them Rollses, right?

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Wolf
The way I heard it VAG purchased both Bentley and Rolls, but BMW (owners of Rolls 'department' producing aviation engines) found out that Rolls Royce wasn't trademark in automotive department and registered the brand. So, VW owns Rolls factories and BMW the actual brand, but VAG is allowed to produce Rollses till 2002 when injunction takes place.

From what I gather, VAG will use Rolls Royce plants to produce Bentleys, whereas BMW is said to plan the building of factory to produce 'their' Rollses. Thanx Vitesse and BRG. But those BMW cars will never be the Rolls Royces to me, seing they have no continuity... But I guess brand new start for old marque is still better than renaming Benettons to Renaults and Stewarts to Jaguars. BTW, are we expected to refer to JYS as Sir Jackie Young Jaguar now?

This is not quite right. Rolls-Royce plc, the aero engine manufacturers, leased to Rolls-Royce Motors the right to use the name and certain trade marks, including the badge, the radiator grill and the mascot. THey were upset at Vickers' sale of Rolls-Royce Motors to VAG and announced that the licences would be transferred to BMW on their expiry in 2002. VAG own all other assets of RR Motors, including the Crewe factory and, I believe the intellectual property rights to all exisiting designs.

[Megatron]

Just as a follow up, I was reading Rahal's book and a picture of Rahal's car at Indy in 1984 DOES carry the Ford logo, no the rear wing end plate. I have seen others through the years.

[karlcars]

Seems to me I responded on a similar thread a while ago.

When the V-8 engines started to be used at Indy, Keith Duckworth asked Ford if it wanted its name on the engines. He was happy to have the engine called a 'Ford' because that would increase the value that Ford got from its backing of the unit. Ford replied, in effect, that it couldn't care less, so the engines raced with the 'Cosworth' cam covers.

When later the engines had Ford ovals on them, that's because I asked for that. Cosworth was happy to oblige.

[pc13]

Hijacking the discussion a bit, a Panoz win in Le Mans wouldn't go to Ford because they don't use Ford engines anymore. Their current powerplant is a 4.0-l DOHC engine designed by Elan Power Products. And the 6.0-l Ford engine they used wasn't a Cosworth, it was a Roush NASCAR unit.

pc13

[Megatron]

Your a little behind on your sports cars, after Le Mans Panoz parked their LMP 07 with that "Panoz" 4 liter racing engine in favor of the old car.

Believe or not, the LMP07 had too much drag and not enough engine power to push it through the air. Thier trap speeds were usually hedious.

I am not 100% sure what 2002 has as far as Panoz go, but I think it will be the old LMP01 with the Ford engine with some new suspension parts and aero tweks. And of course, push button shifting.

[pc13]

Your a little behind on your sports cars, after Le Mans Panoz parked their LMP 07 with that "Panoz" 4 liter racing engine in favor of the old car.

Believe or not, the LMP07 had too much drag and not enough engine power to push it through the air. Thier trap speeds were usually hedious.

I am not 100% sure what 2002 has as far as Panoz go, but I think it will be the old LMP01 with the Ford engine with some new suspension parts and aero tweks. And of course, push button shifting.

The American Le Mans Series website lists Elan Power Products as consistently scoring points in the engines classification with the Panoz's scoring in the manufacturers classification.

I remember hearing that, at Le Mans, the Panoz engine was left in the garage due to poor performances in testing for the 24 Hours, but I heard no mention of Ford in the remainder of the ALMS's season.

Not to say that the engine conformed to expectations. Panoz seems to be getting nowhere near Audi, and Donny's gonna grow tired of wasting money on the car (of course, I never trusted the front engine design to work).

pc13

[Megatron]

While they may not be called Panoz-Fords, rest assured that it is the same engine they used last year. During the Petit Le Mans, it was noted that "the new R&S uses a Ford motor, similar to Panoz".

Sports Car racing is full of "badges". At Le Mans, the VW badge came off the ROC Reynards, at Petit Le Mans, they were back on, and so forth.

[pc13]

Sports Car racing is full of "badges". At Le Mans, the VW badge came off the ROC Reynards, at Petit Le Mans, they were back on, and so forth.

You're right. It's too bad I don't see anybody mentioning the Ascari A410 is just an open-top Lola T92/10. And I remember Hans Hugenholtz's attempt at running the Chevy powered Lotus 116 GT1 as a Bitter.

I believe the motor R&S is using is being referred to as a Lincoln. Probably based on the 3.950cc engine, no?

pc13

[Megatron]

Actually, I think it is a "Ford" now, though two years ago they tried to run the "Lincoln" in the hedious Reynard and then reverted back to the evergreen R&S.

Not to mention that chassis manufacturers are even worse than engines!

The "Dauer" 962 was (I think) just the latest development of the Porsche factory on the 962.

The "Chrysler LMP" was a Dallara.

Ferrari 333SP = Dallara

As you said, Ascari = Lola

Jaguar XJR = TWR Jaguar

And so on...

Ford also supply Saleen with a giant seven liter V8, though thier isn't any Ford ID on that car either, despite Steve Saleen's Mustang adventures...

[Ross Stonefeld]

I dont know what you've been watching, but Ford logos are displayed clearly on Indycars and have been for years. Also the Panoz doesnt have a Ford engine anymore, they do their own through their own in house 'Elan Technologies' or something

[Megatron]

Cosworth ran the DFV, in turbo form, from the late 70s until 1991. This was called the DFX.

In 1992, FORD came back to Indy Car Racing with a Cosworth built engine. From 1992 through next year, Ford carries the badge.

From the late 70s on, its sort of iffy but it is basically Cosworth on all the entry lists. Not Ford.

The Panoz engine is Ford based. Again, the 4liter high reving motor was thrown in the garbage after Le Mans. They might do the work on the engines themselves, but the engine is Ford based.

[Ross Stonefeld]

"Ford based" in that its similar in specs to the engine they had before? Thats natural. The original engine was a Rousch made/tuned engine.

[Falcadore]

Cosworth built the 2.5 litre engines used by Opel in it's DTM Calbiras in the early 90's. Just to confuse the issue.

[ghinzani]

Originally posted by pc13


You're right. It's too bad I don't see anybody mentioning the Ascari A410 is just an open-top Lola T92/10. And I remember Hans Hugenholtz's attempt at running the Chevy powered Lotus 116 GT1 as a Bitter.


pc13

I didnt know that - so is their road car similarily based on it? I assume they had Lolas permission? 92/10 was that the WSC thing that the Dutch team with Cor Euser used?

Is it true also that the fvc/fva is just half a dfv or maybe the dfv is two fva's/

[BRG]

Originally posted by ghinzani
Is it true also that the fvc/fva is just half a dfv or maybe the dfv is two fva's/

The latter - the FVA was Cosworth's 1600cc F2 engine, developed from the Ford Cortina (et al) production engine, with a 16v head. This was in turn developed into a production road version, the BDA, which then became a rally and race engine through the 1970s. The DFV effectively used FVA heads on a new V8 block (this is a simplification of course, but was essentially the case).

[pc13]

I didnt know that - so is their road car similarily based on it? I assume they had Lolas permission? 92/10 was that the WSC thing that the Dutch team with Cor Euser used?

I don't know about permission, but car designs do have copyrights... I assume they just bought the project from Lola (that's how one Hesketh became the Williams FW05, for example).

I think I saw it on the Maison Blanche website earlier this year, but they're currently changing servers so I can't confirm. The Lola T92/10 was, yes, the Euroracing run car, with Cor Euser and Charles Zwolssman at the wheel of car #3 (with Pareja and Matsuda driving it on occasion). Car #4 had Jesus Pareja, Stefan Johansson, Heinz-Harald Frentzen, Hideshi Matsuda, Shunji Kasuya, Phil Andrews, Cor Euser and David Tennyson. Basically, the car sucked.

Pc13

[Megatron]

But it did have a nice black paint scheme and a Judd.... (If its the one I am thinking of)

Much nicer looking than the current Roadster, as the Ascari looked prehistoric in a field of Audis, Dallaras, Panozs, and even Cadillacs...

[Haddock]

The 92 Lola wasn't a particularly bad sportscar, especially when compared against the kind of equipment other privateer teams were running at the time (anyone else remember the shambolic ALD team ?).

Unfortunately it was up against a small number of very powerful, highly developed works sportscars, built by Toyota and Peugeot, not to mention Mazda, who were running last year's Jaguar XJR14s with new paint jobs.

Also, the Judd V8s were not competitive against the works Toyota and Peugeot V10s, not to mention the newer Ford HB V8 that was in the Mazda.

Sportscar racing really does seem to be in a mess at the moment. A whole bunch of different series (ELMS, ALMS, FIA WSC, FIA GT, Le Mans itself) running to similar but subtly different rules, with different categories etc. Somebody really needs to bang heads together because there's probably enough good, serious teams out there to make one quality sports car series....there's certainly not enough to have four or five, or whatever it is.

[Megatron]

Good point. Basically, the ELMS is not doing well at all (some races with only two LMPs), and the FIA series isn't much better. ALMS has had some good crowds and Audi certainly sees the value, but Caddy will only contest around 5 races next year in addition to Le Mans. Grand Am, is it alive? They have had some problems, least of which is not having prototypes finish their conerstone event for two years.

Bentley are in sponsorship woes and may only do Le Mans again (the plan was to contest ALMS in the second year). The nice Dallara Chrsyler never turned a wheel outside Le Mans, sans Donnington Park. MG will offer customer Lola MGs next year in ALMS, but I think the factory will only compete at Le Mans. (BTW, I think the 675 can win overall, that MG is better than many of the prototypes). These are problems for a "series". Le Mans itself is very healthy, but the other 364 days of the year don't hold the magic.

What I would like to see is the elimination of all the "different" series, and have a World Championship like F1 (or Group C), with Audi, Panoz, Dome, Chrysler, Caddy, etc.

That may not happen anytime soon though.

[Haddock]

With regards to a World Sportscar championship...I think that would be the bets solution. Unfortunately, its unlikely to happen any time soon, not least because nobody wants to take on the Audi team directly. After all, the FIA championship is basically for old Ferrari 333s and Domes, which have shown themselves to be uncompetitive against the Audis.

Not sure Le Mans is really in great health either. It gets a nice, full entry list, but in the entire entry, only the Audis, and, perhaps the Bentleys are in with a chance of victory. As all the other teams treat Le Mans as a one-off (Bentley do as well, but their car is sufficiently related to the Audi LMP that it doesn't matter quite so much) and don't race anywhere else, they're unlikely ot make up ground on the Audi team any time soon. Panoz, of course, are the exception to this, but they have never looked remotely like they might win Le Mans anyway.

Of the current series, ALMS is nonetheless the strongest though, and the best base on which to build a World Series, preferably including Le Mans.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by ghinzani


I didnt know that - so is their road car similarily based on it? I assume they had Lolas permission? 92/10 was that the WSC thing that the Dutch team with Cor Euser used?

Is it true also that the fvc/fva is just half a dfv or maybe the dfv is two fva's/

Ascari have also rebadged some the Benettons that they've fitted with Judd engines in EuroBoss...

pete