33 replies to this topic

[Vilshöfer]

What`s the most important technical invention in F1?

Ground Effect???? ( I think it was!!)

Monocoques??

Wings??

Turbos??

What`s your opinion about this ?

[Ali_G]

Probabley was when Lotus (Chapman) got the idea of using the gearbox and engine to be a load baring structure at the back of the car.

This mean that no chassis was needed from the driver back. Revolutionised the design of race cars for ever.

Wings aren't far behind either.

Turbo's were not invented for F1. I believe Renault acctually conquered and worked on the problem of Turbo lag and made it viable for usage in F1.

Niall

[MattPete]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vilshöfer
What`s the most important technical invention in F1?

Ground Effect???? ( I think it was!!)[/QUOTE]

A Lotus invention, but Jim Hall's fan car predates that by about a decade.
[QUOTE]
Monocoques??[/QUOTE]

The aircraft industry did that first. I don't know who first used it for cars.

[QUOTE]
Wings??[/QUOTE]

See Jim Hall's Can-Am Chaparels

[QUOTE]
Turbos??[/QUOTE]

Turbos were used at Indianapolis at least a decade before they showed up with Renault in F1.

What`s your opinion about this ? [/B][/QUOTE]

Most of those weren't invented in F1.

[Ali_G]

Matt: Are you mixing up Spoilers and WIngs.

Spoilers are very small and are on the rear of a car to cancel lift created by the shape of a car.

From what I know Lotus were the first ever team in any sport to use large wings.

Niall

[Croaky]

Sorry, AliG, but the wings on those Can-Am cars were enormous.

[MattPete]

Originally posted by Ali_G
Matt: Are you mixing up Spoilers and WIngs.

Spoilers are very small and are on the rear of a car to cancel lift created by the shape of a car.

From what I know Lotus were the first ever team in any sport to use large wings.

Niall

Nah. The Jim Hall's CanAm Chaparral sported a large rear wing before any F1 car. Not only was it the first to have a wing, but the wing was a moveable aerodynamic device with the angle of attack adjustable by the driver using the "clutch" pedal. I say "clutch" pedal, because there was no clutch: the car used a torque converter from an automatic transmission instead (the gear box used "manual" style gears rather than planetary gears).

http://www.geocities...98/chaprral.htm

They also used a fiberglass monocoquie, but I'm not sure if they were the first to use fibeerglass in that fashion.

As for wings and F1 cars, according to this, F1 wings were inspired by the wings on Jim Hall's CanAm cars:

http://www.mclaren.c...rch/prayer.html

http://www.f1-grandp...ory4.html#Wings

[Ben]

The first wing was put on a race car in about 1956 by a British guy who's name escapes me (it's in McBeath's aero book). Sorry to disappoint fans of Mr Hall and Mr Chapman.

In terms of which of these things have had the biggest impact on motor racing. Downforce (not just ground effect) has increased the performance envelope more than any other technology. So in pure engineering terms ground effect is the one from the list given above.

I think people who narrowly focus on F1 a missing a lot of very interesting, technically advanced race cars that CAN-AM and Jim Hall in particular created. Perhaps more importantly, by using Cheverolet R&D they perhaps understood WHY what they were doing worked more than many people in motorsport even today.

Ben

[Ali_G]

Matt: I'm also guessing that that Fan car inspired the Brabham F1 Fan car.

Class designs.

NIall

[Jhope]

Wan't it BRM that tried using Wings on their cars in 1956?

[desmo]

The earliest use of a wing for an automobile to produce downforce I can recall is the Opel rocket-powered speed record car of 1928. I can't find an image of it now.

[goodbuddy]

what about pneumatic valves?

[Limey]

Monocoques??

First used in F1 by Lotus, Lotus 25. The Lotus 24 (space frame) was developed at the same time in case the Lotus 25 was not successful.

[xes]

Hello all, my first post here.

I believe this site has a photograph of the Opel rocket car.

Scary looking beast.

[Schummy]

And that motorbike with rockets looks eerie

[LMG]

Thanx for the link xes, and welcome to the forum!

I’m not into aerodynamics, but doesn’t the shape of the Opel’s wings create lift instead of downforce?

[vtpachyderm]

The wings do look like normal airplane wings, but it looks like they are angled down to produce downforce (negative angle of attack, negative lift).

[mat1]

Originally posted by Ben
The first wing was put on a race car in about 1956 by a British guy who's name escapes me (it's in McBeath's aero book). Sorry to disappoint fans of Mr Hall and Mr Chapman.

AFAIK it was the Swiss Michael May in 1956 or about that that time who put a monstrous wing on a Porsche.

And concerning the engine as stressed member: I believe BRM did that with the H16 before Chapman. But I wouldn't be surprised if someone did it before that.

mat1

[Ben]

That was the bloke. Michael May sounds British and that's what stuck in my head. That was the incident I was refering to though. Apparently he was turned away by the stewards at the Nurburgring because they thought it was unsafe.

Ben

[desmo]

Nostalgia Forum Thread on Earliest Use of the Engine as a Stressed Member

Good read on the topic. The depth of knowledge over at TNF on matters historical relating to GP/F1 is astonishing!

[The Tiger]

Originally posted by LMG
Thanx for the link xes, and welcome to the forum!

I’m not into aerodynamics, but doesn’t the shape of the Opel’s wings create lift instead of downforce?

They sure look like. I'm not an aerodinamicist either but the surface on top sure looks longer than the surface on the bottom wich would make the air travel faster on the bottom and create a low preassure point on the top. As far as I'm concerned, that's lift to me.

[PDA]

Wings - Hall's Chapparal first to use in races. Mays Porsche practiced at Nurburgring 1000 k in 56 with enormous, body mounted wing. It was banned for the race. Hall's wing was high, acted directly on the wheel hubs, and (as stated above) could be trimmed out on the straight to reduce drag.

Momocoque - Jag D type at Le Mans, 1954 prededed Lotus 25 by ten years.

Engine as stressed member - BRM H16 in 66 in both BRM and Lotus. Also Lancia D50 in 1954/55 used engine as stressed member, but retained the bottom chassis tube (i.e. the engine just "replaced" the top chassis tube).

F1 has never been at the forefront of auto technology. Disc brakes first used on Jag sporsts cars for example.

[Don Capps]

Originally posted by PDA
Wings - Hall's Chapparal first to use in races. Mays Porsche practiced at Nurburgring 1000 k in 56 with enormous, body mounted wing. It was banned for the race. Hall's wing was high, acted directly on the wheel hubs, and (as stated above) could be trimmed out on the straight to reduce drag.

Indy in 1962, the Paul Goldsmith roadster (Smokey Yunick as crew chief) used a wing very similar to that used by May, but it was not used in qualifying or the race. At the 1966 Spring race in Phoenix, Jerry Eisert mounted a wing of the rear-engined car he designed which did make the race. Then, of course, came the Chaparral 2E at Bridgehampton later in 1966. Not until 1968 did GP cars first run with wings.

Monocoque - Jag D type at Le Mans, 1954 prededed Lotus 25 by ten years.

Actually, there was a monocoque car running as far back as about 1912. Also, there was a monocoque F2 car running in the late '50s as well.

Engine as stressed member - BRM H16 in 66 in both BRM and Lotus. Also Lancia D50 in 1954/55 used engine as stressed member, but retained the bottom chassis tube (i.e. the engine just "replaced" the top chassis tube).

Sorry, but the nod still goes to the Lancia D50 with the Bugatti 35 running a close second. The bottom tube was superfluous to the chassis and retained primarily as a convenience for maintenance.

F1 has never been at the forefront of auto technology. Disc brakes first used on Jag sports cars for example.

How true!

[AD]

What about ABS?

[Ben]

ABS - not originally F1. FFD developed a system for the Jenson cars in the 60s.

My understanding is that Williams had 4-channel ABS in 93 and McLaren had power assisted brakes in the same year.

Ben

[Croaky]

I believe ABS was developed for large aircraft, then Ferguson (the same guy that made tractors) later developed the Dunlop Maxaret anti-skid braking system for his unsuccessful prototype road cars (they were also the first road cars to have 4WD, and his company made the only 4WD F1 car.) It was eventually added to the Jensen FF (Ferguson Formula) as Ben said.

[kos]

I thought that there were several 4WD F1 cars - Lotus 63, Matra MS84, Coswoth's own project and later Lotus turbine-driven car

[jetsetjim]

Most significant invention in F1...


The use of Carbon Fibre as a structural material in chassis construction. This technology is still not applied in the aircraft industry (excluding missles!)

It has revolutionised the way F1 cars are made, and has enhanced the safety of a modern car to standards considered unobtainable just 10-15 years ago...

[Ben]

When you say most significant what exactly do you mean?

In terms of the vehicle's performance envelope, downforce is definitely the biggest cause of performance imrovements, if we look at the car as a whole.

I believe the A380 Airbus has composite wing structures and the Bell Cobra and the RAH-64 Commanche helicopers have composite rotor heads and many helicopters have composite blades which handle 500g accelerations during flight.

Many of the original composite people in F1 came from aerospace. Hurcules made missiles and Brian O'Rourke at Williams designed the F18 Hornet composite air brake.

Composites have made a big impact in F1, but borrowed rather than invented I would say.

I think what's coming out of this thread is that F1 doesn't invent much at all that is totally new. It merely pushes the limits of that technology. It can do this because if something goes wrong you invariably see a smokey car limping to the pits, in aerospace, if something new goes wrong in flight, you kill pilots.

Ben

[jetsetjim]

Very good points Ben, but I feel I need to clarify myself.

Carbon fibre as a structural element in survival cells and monocoques is something that is still unique to the motorsport industry. F1 pioneered its use in such an application. The aircraft industry hasn't applied this technology yet, although missile casings are known to be made from CFRP. In fact, as far as I know, only Richard Noble is looking into the viability of a supersonic airplane made from CFRP.

That is where I was referring to the use of CFRP.. I think the Airbus only has CFRP spars in the wing, rather than the whole structure, and the Rotor blades in the helicopter aren't there to protect the occupants.

[Punisher6]

Engine technology, I know Honda's VTEC engines were born out of F1 technology.

[ehagar]

Originally posted by Vilshöfer
What`s the most important technical invention in F1?

Ground Effect???? ( I think it was!!)

Monocoques??

Wings??

Turbos??

What`s your opinion about this ?

None of the above

[DEVO]

I would go with the invention of the science of Sonics as Ali_g put it:


I heard the main problem with this years engine was a problem with vibrations. Such a wide angle doesn't help with the vibrations due to sound etc. it all has to do with Sonics.

[biercemountain]

I vote for the HUGE runoff areas at all the major tracks. F1 has definately invented this technology of clearing lots and lots of space beside the track.

[Yelnats]

Originally posted by LMG
[/B]

LMG, I think this is one of the most hilarious images in racing! First there's the sheer lunacy of driving a rocket powered car on a public road. Then there's the driver's wind plastered hair and the starttled expressions of the spectators with fingers in ears and hands on hats! Great stuff!