46 replies to this topic

[Vilshöfer]

Has anybody hot stuff about the legendary Peugeot 205 T16???

By the way he was able to drive a lap in Spain (1986) with which he had qualified on the 5th place in this year´s GP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

0-100 in 2.5 s (on gravel)

[No27]

Originally posted by Vilshöfer
By the way he was able to drive a lap in Spain (1986) with which he had qualified on the 5th place in this year´s GP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No kidding? Where did you find that?

[silver]

On that same year Henry Toivonen who was driving Lancia lapped Estoril track in the testing so fast that he would have qualified 6th in that years F1 qualification with his time.

I can remember that Finnish magazine tested Matti Alamaki`s Peugeot 205 T16 rally cross car (it had been Juha Kankkunen`s car year before but after Henry Toivonen`s fatal accident FIA banned B-classa rallycars). It was raining cats and dogs and the tarmac was really slippery.

It took Matti and his Peugeot 2.4 secs from 0 to 100 kph.

Car reached it`s top speed 205 kph in 7.05 secs if i can remember correctly...

[30ft penguin]

Google says:

http://www.peugeotsp...5_T16_Rally.htm

http://performanceca...peugeot/205.htm

http://www.boycies.f...o.uk/205t16.htm

http://www.rallygall...bank_oldies.htm

[Ben]

I'm confused about the original post. The circuit where the Spanish GP is currently held didn't exist in 1986.

Ben

[Vilshöfer]

It wasn`t Barcelona it was Jerez



Courage don`t mean to have no fear,
It means to overcome the fear

[Ben]

Yeah but you said it would have qualified him 5th for THIS years race which wasn't at Jerez so I don't get what the comparison was about. Average speed? The lap time would be irrelavant though with the vast difference in circuit layout.

Ben

[Croaky]

I think I'm right in saying that the lap time would have put him well up the grid in the 1986 GP, not the 2001 GP.
I wonder how well it would have done in very wet conditions, compared to an F1 car in those conditions, since it had 4WD.

[Marco94]

These cars were evil (eye-twinkle)! We could ofcourse enjoy them some more in the Ralley Raids like Paris-Dakar. Where, by the way they were matched in speed by a truck. (If you can call it that) The DAF Turbo Twin project was even more impressive then the Peugeots. Ever seen a truck outrun a 205 T16. That's what the DAF did. Thank God we had Sky Channel in those days. Daily speed fix, in large doses.

[Schummy]

I'd like to see the lap times of DAF truck around Monaco ;) (if it could pass Loewe, of course)

[Croaky]

You've seen the speed of an Arrows-Asiatech around Monaco, I wouldn't imagine a DAF truck would be much different.

[Haddock]

Much discussion of the claims regarding F1 speed laps of Jerez and Estoril by drivers in Group B rally cars in 1986 (its a story I've heard a lot) on a rallying mailing list Iused to be on eventually led most of us to the conclusion that these stories are a motor racing 'urban legend'.

Assuming (optimistically) 700BHP for an 1100KG Peugeot 205T16,its hard to see how it could get close ot the lap times of a 900BHP 540KG F1 car.

Of course, if anyone has proof I'm wrong I'd love to see it !

[JDeRosa]

Originally posted by Haddock
Assuming (optimistically) 700BHP for an 1100KG Peugeot 205T16,its hard to see how it could get close ot the lap times of a 900BHP 540KG F1 car.

Are you sure the T16 was 1100kgs???? I sat in one a few months back at the Coventry Transport Museum and it was amazing. I sat in the pilot's seat and I could still smell the general 'engine' odour.

Anyway, the engine cover was not stee or aluminium, and with my old 205 GTi only weighing approx. 900 kgs, the T16 must be around 600kgs.....don't really know, I could be wrong.

[Haddock]

To be fair, the 1100Kgs is the figure quoted for the road going version of the car...(from the tech specs on one of the links posted above)....either way the car is not likely to be much lighter than 800Kgs. Specs for the 1985 T16 quote the horsepower at a more modest 450BHP, though I have heard they could get up to around 650Bhp out of it if they wished. Hence

Power to weight then worksd out like this:

Lotus Renault F1 (pole Estoril 86): approx 800BHP 540Kgs

Power to weight ratio =1482 BHP/Ton

Peugeot 205 T16 approx 650 BHP, 800Kgs (min)

Power to weight ratio=812 Bhp/Ton

[BRG]

Plus you need to factor in the F1 car's tyre and down-force advantages.

The supposed speed on the Group B rally cars is a bit of a myth. The recent Group A and WRC cars have a minimum weight limit of (I think) 1250kg and a 34mm restrictor which limits power to around 300 bhp (allegedly - I suspect the works cars are nearer 400 bhp). Yet these cars with only 320 bhp per tonne are now frequently beating the best times set by the Group B cars over certain classic stages.

The truth is that the Group B cars, whilst undoubtedly powerful and very spectacular, were not really very sophisticated. Modern tranmission developments using active front, central and rear diffs, mean that the current breed of WRC can use its limited power far more effectively than the pretty basic 4wd systems of the Gp B era. Plus tyre, suspension and brake technology have moved on a surprising amount. Only the drivers remain at a similar level - they are still all crazy!;)

It would be interesting to see how a 205T16 would stand up against Peugeot's current 206WRC around either a race track or on a gravel stage. I suspect it might be a revealing comparison!

[Haddock]

Spot on. On slower stages especially, Modern Group A cars are quicker than the old Group B beasts. Not least because of improved suspension and brakes, not to mention all the electronic trickery surrounding centre differentials etc (traction control on a rally car ....who'd have imagined it ?)

Not to mention the fact that while the old Group B cars hd more power, the newer cars have a lot more torque.

Apparently Group B cars are still faster over really fast, open stages (I can't remember the source of this claim, I'm afraid, but I give it rather more credibility than the 'Gp B cars outqualify F1 cars' stories), but for safety reasons there aren't many of them left any more

[Darren Galpin]

There are several Group B Metro 6R4's racing in various British National Rally Championships (in particular the Scottish), and they can regularly beat the Ford Escort WRC's over the same stages.

[BRG]

Darren

True, but the Escort WRC was never really very competitive as a WRC - more just a GpA plus to fill-in until the Focus was introduced. It didn't have the full active diff technology for instance. I was thinking of the more current Subaru and Peugeot WRCs, or even the Toyota Corrolla WRC - the Metro 6R4s can rarely match them, although a lot depends on the relative amounts of driver talent versus money in national level rallies.

Also the Metro, although originally a Gp B car, has had steady development over the years by the various private teams using them. I imagine that the current cars, even in 2.5 litre form, would probably out-run the original works cars!

[Haddock]

Its true that the Escort WRC was not exactly the most competitive WRC car ever made. On the other hand, its worth bearing in mind also that the Metro 6R4 was hardly the best of the Group B rally cars either.

On balance I'm with you all the same, I think modern WRC rally cars could outpace the old Group B cars

[Croaky]

I've looked around the net a bit for info on the old Group B cars and found a couple of interesting things.

From http://www.rallycars...ackground2.html
"To give you an idea of the kind of performance GroupB cars were capable of I'll mention that in the 1986 season Henri Toivonen made two laps around the Estoril circuit, during a stage of the Portuguese rally, the fastest of which, in 1 minute and 18,1 seconds, would have qualified him in the sixth position of the F1 Grand Prix that same season. Ayrton Senna had the Pole Position in the 1986 Portuguese Grand Prix in 1 minute and 16,7 seconds...Toivonen was using the Lancia Delta S4 and was accompanied by his usual co-driver Sergio Cresto."

From http://www.stormload...comparison.html
Which is faster?
This is the question many people want to know the answer to. Well, it depends. On a racetrack, up Pikes Peak, or on fast, sweeping roads like those used in the 1980s, the Group B car would win. On tight, winding stages like those run today (due to the maximum allowable average speed of 120km/h), the WRC car would be quicker. The Lancia's significant power and weight advantages would give it the edge on faster roads, while the Focus' chassis and handling are worlds better than any Group B car, giving it the nod for any modern rally.

In short, the development of the Group B cars was mainly focused on getting as much power as possible out of the engine, while the designers of the current crop of rally cars pay much more attention to the chassis. It's a classic case of brute force versus finesse.

[Haddock]

Hmm, the question still remains, is the story of Toivonen and Cresta's 1 min 18 lap of Portugal actually true ?

The internet isn't always the most reliable source of information after all. I've already outlined above the reasons why I *don't* believe that a Group B rally car could get with in a couple of seconds of pole time on a Grand Prix circuit....

Now does anyone have stage times, etc from the rally of Portugal in 1986?

[Croaky]

Never mind that, does anyone have a rally-spec Group B Lancia S4? Someone should do the comparison. Does anyone have Michelle Mouton's phone number?

[BRG]

Originally posted by Croaky
in the 1986 season Henri Toivonen made two laps around the Estoril circuit, during a stage of the Portuguese rally, the fastest of which, in 1 minute and 18,1 seconds, would have qualified him in the sixth position of the F1 Grand Prix that same season. Ayrton Senna had the Pole Position in the 1986 Portuguese Grand Prix in 1 minute and 16,7 seconds

Senna took pole at Estoril 1986 in 1 min 16.673 sec which is an average of 204.244 kph (about 128mph).

Now I well remember that the GpB rally cars were very quick but there is NO way that they could have averaged that sort of speed around Estoril, I do not recall the Portugal Rally ever using Estoril as a stage, although I may be wrong. In those days, the rally used the tarmac roads around Sintra before moving north onto gravel stages such as Fafe. It did use the Lousada rallycross stage as a superspecial.

So I suspect this is a sort of rally myth based on some half truth. No disrespect to the 205 T16 which was a superb bit of kit, but as for matching F1 lap-times, well IMO the figures just don't add up.

Oh and yes, I have Michelle Mouton's phone number (in my dreams...)

[pc13]

Now I well remember that the GpB rally cars were very quick but there is NO way that they could have averaged that sort of speed around Estoril, I do not recall the Portugal Rally ever using Estoril as a stage, although I may be wrong. In those days, the rally used the tarmac roads around Sintra before moving north onto gravel stages such as Fafe. It did use the Lousada rallycross stage as a superspecial.

They used Estoril as a stage, but not the race track itself. They did the technical scrutineering at the track, and would do a short special stage (around 3 km, I believe) to kick off the rally. The Estoril track was 4.35 km back then.

pc13

[MattPete]

Originally posted by Haddock

The internet isn't always the most reliable source of information after all. I've already outlined above the reasons why I *don't* believe that a Group B rally car could get with in a couple of seconds of pole time on a Grand Prix circuit....

Back in the 1980's, someone in the States campaigned a Ford RS200 in the IMSA GTX category ("eXperimental"). IIRC, it was in no way competitive with the GTP cars, but might have been capable of keeping up with the GTO's.

[sennadog93]

Originally posted by BRG
Senna took pole at Estoril 1986 in 1 min 16.673 sec which is an average of 204.244 kph (about 128mph).

Now I well remember that the GpB rally cars were very quick but there is NO way that they could have averaged that sort of speed around Estoril, I do not recall the Portugal Rally ever using Estoril as a stage, although I may be wrong. In those days, the rally used the tarmac roads around Sintra before moving north onto gravel stages such as Fafe. It did use the Lousada rallycross stage as a superspecial.

So I suspect this is a sort of rally myth based on some half truth. No disrespect to the 205 T16 which was a superb bit of kit, but as for matching F1 lap-times, well IMO the figures just don't add up.

Oh and yes, I have Michelle Mouton's phone number (in my dreams...)

Oh yea of little faith! This story is true if a little exaggerated in that it didn't quite match the times that the F1 boys were doing at the time. I remember reading it MN at the time - it was for a promotional day that they were running after doing some gravel testing in Portugal. The car could have qualified on the 4th or 5th row of the grid or something like that. I'll have a dig through my old copies of MN for you lot!

[BRG]

Originally posted by sennadog93
This story is true if a little exaggerated

It would be nice to get to the bottom of this so perhaps your back-copies of MN will cast some light on it.

On the face of it, the laws of physics suggest that a 205 T16 could not match a contemporary F1 car on a race track. Rally rules meant that the T16 (especially with two crew aboard) had to be significantly heavier than the F1 and in actual rally trim it probably had less power. It also had the drag coefficient of the roadcar it was based upon compared to the windtunnel-tuned low drag F1 car. The T16 had negligible downforce whilst the F1 had maximised downforce. The F1 used much wider wheels and tyres than the T16. The T16 was essentially designed for gravel rallies and for the mixed surface Portugal Rally would not even have been in full tarmac specification. If we assume the drivers to be equal in ability (which some might question!) the only advantage for the T16 would have been in traction from its 4WD.

I wonder if the truth is, as pc13 suggested, that the rally stage was actually shorter than the full Estoril lap and so we are not really comparing like with like?

[Ben]

In response to the post above regarding the use of active diffs on the escort. I've seen a stripped down escort box and it definitely had an active diff.

Ben

[Croaky]

To be fair to Group B rally cars, they did have aerodynamics, big ugly spoilers and wings to stop them taking off too much. Apart from that, Henri Toivonen was a pretty incredible driver. He was stunningly fast on all surfaces, including tarmac. I'm still not entirely convinced either way on the Estoril thing, but if it was a PR stunt you never know what they did to ensure a close time...

[sennadog93]

I remember it like it was yesterday but I need to get in the loft to prove it. I will do so at the weekend.

[Schummy]

I definitively don't think Gr. Bs did anywhere near of those F1s. Power ratio, and way different reglaments (Gr. B's cars closely following normal road cars, F1 superoptimized, non-compromised cars) preclude this.

But... Gr. B cars could do a decent lap time in any F1 track. Now imagine a F1 in a gravel stage! Even in a rough tarmac stage F1 could be at sea, I think

[Haddock]

Even in a rough tarmac stage F1 could be at sea, I think

I don't know, they seemed quick enough round Detroit and Mexico a few years back.

[BRG]

Originally posted by Schummy
Now imagine a F1 in a gravel stage

Did somebody mention Jos Verstappen ;)

[wingsbgone]

Were we able to ever resolve whether the Tiovonin story was accurate (that he ran a Lancia Group B (1986?) on the Estoril circuit in a time that would have qualified for 3-4th row for the F1 race that year)? Any luck with the MN (Motoring News?) search Sennadog93??? thanks .

[AndreasNystrom]

I guess 4wd and more advanced transmission could be a benifit for the Rally Car around a curvy track, with no good straights.

I actually think a modern WRC could be in a Monaco race, and maybe fight with the minardis. Who knows ? =)
The rally car can have slicks, and computer controlled transmission to get all the power down.
I mean, those group b did 0-100km/h on gravel in 2.5secs.. it must have been quite advanced.
I dont think a modern F1 does the same number on tarmac, does it?


But as said, its hard to know the real truth.

[Janzen]

IMO 0-100 in 2.5s on gravel is a little optimistic. Even if the car has all kinds of electronics some laws of physics must come into play. Ofcorse there are different kinds of gravel.

It is just impossible to compare WRC and F1 since each are made for their environment. It would be great however to see a WRC in Monaco and see what time it would get. The way Makinen cut corners he would fly over the curbs.

[100cc]

Originally posted by AndreasNystrom

The rally car can have slicks, and computer controlled transmission to get all the power down.
I mean, those group b did 0-100km/h on gravel in 2.5secs.. it must have been quite advanced.
I dont think a modern F1 does the same number on tarmac, does it?

wasn't it something like 2.9 (0-200km/h) in an F1?? I remember hearing Hakkinen's Suzuka start figures(in 99 I think).

[Schummy]

I don't think WRC were a match for F1 cars in Monaco. Super high power-weight ratio and cornering G-forces for F1 make it difficult to really compare, IMHO.

What I really would love is a Special Stage in Monaco with drivers making several attemps (like in a normal F1 qualify session). It would be super for me I love the way they have to drive those cars around. And the fight for "pole" would be great

[Chui]

I recall reading in AutoWeek that the Group B rally cars [and I recall mentioning the Peugeot in the same article] were faster than F1 cars "thru the first two gears..." This was mentioned to have taken place on gravel. The article went on to mention that the cars did this for perhaps 1,000 miles or more while the F1 cars only did it for a couple of hundred.

[RaoulDuke]

Originally posted by BRG
Senna took pole at Estoril 1986 in 1 min 16.673 sec which is an average of 204.244 kph (about 128mph).

Now I well remember that the GpB rally cars were very quick but there is NO way that they could have averaged that sort of speed around Estoril, I do not recall the Portugal Rally ever using Estoril as a stage, although I may be wrong. In those days, the rally used the tarmac roads around Sintra before moving north onto gravel stages such as Fafe. It did use the Lousada rallycross stage as a superspecial.

So I suspect this is a sort of rally myth based on some half truth. No disrespect to the 205 T16 which was a superb bit of kit, but as for matching F1 lap-times, well IMO the figures just don't add up.

Oh and yes, I have Michelle Mouton's phone number (in my dreams...)

Here's the link:

http://www.pistonhea...tones/rs200.htm

[RaoulDuke]

Near the end of the "Killer B's" time on racing circuits, I remember hearing stories about the RS200 and how it would twist halfshafts. With a marker, mechanics would draw straight lines down the length of the half-shaft. After qualifying, the straight lines would be bent around the diameter of the shaft. This story could be a load of $hit, but it's managed to stick with me.

[-RM-]

Could that time have been set on the short special stage and then people assumed that the F1 track and the Rally track was of the same length? I find it hard to belive that a rallycar would be faster than a F1 car.

[Schummy]

Two more web pages with reference to "the fact"(?)

http://www.stormloader.com/groupb/
http://www.rallycars...ackground2.html

This page has the famous Estoril Lap "Incident", but goes on saying current WRC cars are faster than B's (true in regular WR stages, I don't know in a F1 track like Estoril). Thus, current WRC are faster than 1986's F1. I don't believe that.

For a "fair" comparison time-wise, a 1986 GrB car (Ford RS200) had maybe 600+HP(maybe less) and about 1000kg, with a ratio HP/kg of not better than 0.65. Ferrari F1'86 car (not a particularly good car) had about 850HP and about 700HP with driver and medium tanks, it does a 1.2 ratio. Throw a great advantage of tech allowed and money involved and I cannot believe GrB cars were a match for F1s in 1986. The only tech advantage for GrBs would be 4x4 traction, but... it cannot justify all others shortcomings

In this page they test a FordRS200:

http://www.ee.surrey...00/performa.htm

Ford RS200 GrB car was tested like a "normal" supercar and three drivers got 0-60 times: 3.08, 3.06 and 3.16, is to say about 3.1. Probably it could be done faster. I have read a Lancia S4 doing 2.3 in 0-60. I don't know.

Paradoxically, I think a GrB COULD accelerate faster than a 1986's F1! It would be possible due to shorter gears. With half a final drive and 4x4 traction, maybe a GrB would outaccelerate a 86's F1, I don't know, there seems Mansell said something about this.

Don't get me wrong, I think GrBs were fascinating. And maybe they were the faster cars around in 1986 if we could test cars in a reasonable variety of terrains. But, in road tracks F1 were intouchable, IMO (in 1986 we didn't have Sports Cars so fast).

I find this topic interesting. And I'd like someone who knows this history better than me could tell us what truth had "the Estoril Lap Story" and how it happened.

[Roland Kunz]

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[Kaha]

As much as I really want the story of Toivonens lap in the S4 to be true, I don't believe it is true.
For the following reasons:

1. I have never seen any references to this event in any Lancia literature, neither generel Lancia literature or even in specific Delta S4 literature. An event this remarkable surly would have been mentioned.

2. There are several diffent versions of this story around. All states that it took place on the Estoril circuit, and that the time was 1.18,1. When it took place differs, it was either during a stage of a rally, during a tyre testing session, or during a pure demonstration run. Also different is whom was the passenger, it was either Toivonens codriver, or a (italian) journalist.

I would of course be very happy if someone did provide some written references/evidence that this event happened.

As to the discussion if it would be possible, I don't think that it is likely that a S4 could lap as fast as a F1, but I can't say that it would be totaly impossible.

F1 in 86 was highly regulated and group B was not.
Some examples of the differences between F1 and group B in 86:

Power: a F1 had over 800 bhp and a group B car had around 650 bhp, but that was in rally trim, I can't see why the S4 could not be tuned to "F1 power" for a short demonstration run. (it had a slightly bigger engine of 1700 cc, and they did run with massive intercoolers, which F1 had no space for)

Weigth: A F1 was some a couple of 100 kgs lighter than a group B, again this was in rally trim, and a demonstrator special gorup B could possibly be a bit lighter. The main drawback of higher weight would be compensated by the 4wd.

Wheels and tyres: A F1 had mandarory 13 in wheels, but group B could have higher wheels and lower profile tyres (Of course group B had the same rubber (and slicks) as the F1)

Brakes: Group B used larger disc due to the bigger wheels, a F1 would have more efficient cooling of the brakes.

CoG: Here is one of the most important advantages of th F1, a group B car (with a passenger) would have a much higer CoG than a F1.

Aerodynamics. A F1 did generate much more downforce, group B could OTOH use stuff that was banned in F1 such as ground effect skirts. But the S4 was not optimized for top speed performance, it was (like the 205 T16) made to have some reasemblense with the road car, so the aerodynamics was not as good as the could hav been (Ford chose to optimize aerodynamics insted of the marketing advantages with their RS200)

A lot of people have made the comparison with Group B and WRC, a WRC car might be faster on a normal rally stage, but I doubt that it would go as fast on a circuit.
Also have those people seems forget that a '01 F1 would run circles around a '86 F1 despite having smaller grooved tires, less wing area, less power (or about the same), and a lot of other things to slow down F1 cars.

[Melbourne Park]

If one looks at power to weight ratios, it looked like a Formula 5000 car would eat an '80s F1. Allan Jones with the WDC Williams and an F1 Alpha came out to Melbourne for the Australian GP (a couple of years before the first Adelaide F1 GP).

The Williams and Alpha were so much faster than the F5000 cars it wasn't funny. On paper, it looked like the F5000 would have a big power advantage. But the F5000s were lapped after about 5 laps I recall. No contest.

The rally cars might have equalled the F1 time though, and I know how they'd do it; just do some good 'ol rally driving, straight through any chicanes, and taste as much dirt as possible by cutting across various sections of track. All in good publicity fun. Its pretty dumb to imagine that by putting some skirts on the side of the air brick that is a rally car and imagining by doing so it could sustain the cornering force of an F1 car, that's just silly. A rally car would need a much better power to weight ratio than an F1 car to be as fast as a formula 5000, let alone an F1 car.

[Kaha]

MP, sorry if I didn't make myself clear: Aerodynamics is the main point why I don't think a S4 could lap anyway near the time of an '86 F1 (and the second main point is the CoG)

As for the power to weight issue, I don't think that thats so important, remember how short time it took for the first 3,5l NA F1's to outqualify the most powerful Turbo F1's with about twice the power (in qualifying trim)