339 replies to this topic

[Elvis]

So what happenned to the Bira vs Frans scrap that was tailing up this thread when I looged in earlier today? Must be easier to delete a few posts then it is to apologise or admit a mistake.....

[bira]

Elvis: it was removed at Frans's request. Make of that what you will.

[A3]

Bira, personally I'd like to know 1 thing. I read what you wrote and I like to know if the accusation still stands? I was not registered at the time, so did he say it or not?

[bira]

A3: I remember it very clearly and I stand fully by what I said before.

[A3]

Fair enough.

[Frans]

"I didn't cheered when Schumacher went into the wall in Silverstone... Yes there crossed a smile over my face when I saw a red car thru the gravel, but when I saw the impact, the smile was gone. . . . My website even closed a while then! "

this is the excact quote I used on the accident.

I got it from somebody who got it archived.
( thanks ! )

Bira, I find what you are trying to do pathetic, your so sure huh?

I'm sure to, and I simply avoid a fight/discussion with you, but you are putting me in an devensive position, and not a little one! Your word against mine, the "owner" against "the village fool".

But this is now a thing of principle. You blew me bellow the beld badly.

If you could back up your words, I would be man enough to take it on, but I never said what you claim crazy old lady!

[bira]

Originally posted by Frans
bira, keep it on PM please.!!!

I guess you changed your mind.

[Frans]

you know bira, your an okay administrator/moderator ya know, but as poster your a pain in the ass.

be happy, you won't have to edit anything from me anymore, less work. I can guess you are as well, ..... ********

[Sammyed]

Please calm down, this must be the effects of the "off-season"...

Now shake hands....ok??

[BuzzingHornet]

Frans never said that he hoped Schumacher would be killed. His anti-Schumacher stuff is entertaining, amusing and often downright inaccurate or falsified (those green brake discs caused an internet storm ) but always pretty good natured as far as I can see. It was someone else who said that.

IMO its fairly bad practice to say stuff like that without evidence. My $0.02

[mahelgel]

Originally posted by BuzzingHornet
His (Frans) anti-Schumacher stuff is entertaining, amusing and often downright inaccurate or falsified (those green brake discs caused an internet storm ) but always pretty good natured as far as I can see

Thats about my perseption of Frans too. Can't really remeber any posts by him that where "evil", but i'm not claiming to have read all his posts either... As i don't really remeber who wrote what when Schumacher broke his leg, i shall not comment on that particular subject.

It a bit sad that this thread has evolved the way it has, but as it's topic reads, no one should have been expect anything else Anyway, as i'm reading the thread, it seems like the Schumacher vs Hill battle still manages to rise quite a heated discussion, and atleast that must mean something

[crouchyaj]

It is quite interesting that this thread ended up divided into those that support MS and those that don't.

A lot of Hill fans have come out of the closet and were joined by the anti MS brigade, nothing wrong in that.

But the MS fans massive defensive action, shows to me that there is animosity between the Hill and MS fans, to MS fans it was the FIA's supposed fixing of the competition thanks to Silverstone, and for Hill fans it was Adelaide.

Two wrongs don't make a right. As I have said before MS was the best driver that year, without a doubt, after Senna died, but he did not deserve the title if he had to win it the way he did.

[Slyder]

Well for the look of it, it seems that most people here, Shumacher lovers hate Hill for the simple reason that he wasn't a racer or whatever crap you can come up with so they can't tarnish your idol Shumacher.

Bollocks

I always hated Shumacher, I always thought of him as an overhyped, dirty bastard.

Hill had talent, he probably wasn't a great racer as Shumi is but he still was a talented racer. He probably wasn't as good as Shumi but at least he stood up to him for three consecutive years, and managed to beat Shumi in many occassions especially when you take in account his age, the unreliable car, and his skills. One has to respect Hill, who managed fight Shumi to the very end in all those years. He outshone Shumi in races where Shumi should've won, or you're going to say that never happened?

Hill deserved to win the '94 title, because he did a far more impresive season than Shumacher could've done in that entire year. But no, Shumi bumped him off and the title was his. ugh

and of course, Hill is now barely remembered because in all his time, he was seen as the "bad guy," while Shumi has always been the "good guy." Please, Hill sure made some bonehead moves, but at least he NEVER, EVER did them to take advantage of his competitors, not like your darling Shumi, and always showed a fighting spirit (oh yes he did) even after his best years were over. Despite having a crap car he managed to score top ten finishes in his ENTIRE career, and still manage great performances in inferior cars, just like he did in Hungary '97 or Belgium '98.

He wasn't the same after 99, simply because the fire left him, and he was already nearing his 40s. It was sad to see him leave. I know his move for Arrows was not good, but what else could he do, after a crappy offer with McLaren. IMO, that arrows move killed his momentum. Had those idiots Frank and Patrick let him stayed with the team, he would've been a top contender for at least those three years.

Due to his age when he entered, I also say that had he entered F1 ten years earlier, his life would've been a different story.

But one thing is clear, in '94 and '95. Shumi never had it easy winning those two titles, because Hill was always there, up until the last race.

[Nikolas Garth]

Originally posted by Slyder
I always hated Shumacher,

You sound well balanced.

[The Soul Stealer]

Originally posted by Slyder
Hill had talent

You've just made my morning:up:

[The_Z_Man]

Originally posted by BuzzingHornet
IMO its fairly bad practice to say stuff like that without evidence. My $0.02

I have to concur. I must add that recollection of events is not as reliable as people would like it to be, it's often colored by our biases and feeling about the events and the protagonists and it generally gets worse with time.

All that IMO, of course.

The_Z_Man

[El Magnificante]

Bira, really proffessional!!! !!!!!!!

[A3]

Originally posted by El Magnificante
Bira, really proffessional!!! !!!!!!!

Please. Don't attack people if you don't know half the story behind it. I suggest you visit the Paddock Club to read Frans' farewell thread.

[Smooth]

Originally posted by Slyder
But one thing is clear, in '94 and '95. Shumi never had it easy winning those two titles, because Hill was always there, up until the last race.

Please define 'there'. If you mean he was in with a shot at a title in the last race, he was in 1994 only because of the events discussed ad naseum here, not because of his 'fighting spirit'.

And I am pretty sure you didn't watch F1 in 1995. Hell, you didn't even bother to go to Forix before posting such mis-informed tripe.

[Vunz]

After a bit of lurking around on the Anti Schumacher Bulletin Board (look for the user Spidersnarf) I'm more and more under the impression that Bira is right. Frans states that he only strongly 'dislikes' Schumacher here in this thread, but to quote him from his own site when he answers the topic: 'At what moment did you start hating Schumacher?' He states: 'he simply does make it do damn easy to hate him. WHahahah' and 'since 1994, that's for sure... ' which proofs he lies. So you could question if his other statements are true is well.

What a bunch of whackos on that BB btw, to devote so much time to utter hatred is beyond my understanding .

[A3]

Originally posted by Vunz
After a bit of lurking around on the Anti Schumacher Bulletin Board (look for the user Spidersnarf)

Moderator=BostonKiller

Our BostonKiller?

[Sammyed]

That´s right...our Boston Killer.

[Vunz]

I'm afraid so, Sammyed can be found as well.

[Sammyed]

Originally posted by Vunz
After a bit of lurking around on the Anti Schumacher Bulletin Board (look for the user Spidersnarf) I'm more and more under the impression that Bira is right. Frans states that he only strongly 'dislikes' Schumacher here in this thread, but to quote him from his own site when he answers the topic: 'At what moment did you start hating Schumacher?' He states: 'he simply does make it do damn easy to hate him. WHahahah' and 'since 1994, that's for sure... ' which proofs he lies. So you could question if his other statements are true is well.

What a bunch of whackos on that BB btw, to devote so much time to utter hatred is beyond my understanding .

Can´t you dig that the mentioned bb is only for fun??? And yeah...it is beyond your understanding.

[A3]

Nothing personal, but my definition of "fun" is completely different.

Poll: who has got the biggest chin in f1

• Scumacher
• Schumacher

'nuff said.

[Sammyed]

Originally posted by A3
Nothing personal.

I think the same, 'nothing personal'..but things between Bira and Frans went a little more like that. And this guy Vunz...seems like being in a "special mission" collecting proofs from different places including Frans web-site Pathetic uh??

[Vunz]

Just trying to be objective. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty.

I was wondering what was said in the BB on the Anti-Schumacher website which is by the way open to anyone so I'm not revealing any secrets and found that Frans states entirely different opinions overthere. But everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion, including you.

[Vunz]

You call this fun?:

we can still pray that the mother$*)# crashes and dies after he wins the championship in Hungary today.

and:

we can still watch the rest of the races and hope the MotherF$%#@ dies in a race?

Let me state clearly that this is NOT a quote by Frans and this bulletinboard is unrestricted, allowing anyone to post without registering. However these kind of posts are apperently not to offensive to be moderated.

[Mammoth]

LOL!!!
What the hell is this?? Finding proof on someone elses site to get incriminated here??? For all we know everyone here could own a porn or nazi web page and we wouldn´t even know... That´s the beauty of the internet, every single site is a new realm, with new rules.... at least Frans is honest about it and is not ashame to hide his identity on his homepage or in here. I thought honesty was a virtue....

[Peeko]

Originally posted by Mammoth
I thought honesty was a virtue....

No, you're thinking of patience. Patience is a virtue.

[Todd]

Originally posted by Mammoth
at least Frans is honest about it and is not ashame to hide his identity on his homepage or in here. I thought honesty was a virtue....

In what way is he honest? Is he honest when he claims that he doesn't hate Schumacher on this site in an effort to gain credibility, or is he honest on his own site when he explains why he hates Schumacher? Or is he honest when he accuses others of lying rather than take the heat for his unpopular and malicious positions on some topics? What does your dictionary define honesty as?

[The Soul Stealer]

The best policy???

[Arrow]

That Anti Schumacher board is a scary place.
Its like a cultish secret society of misfits.
I think ill stay away.

[MortenF1]

All that crappy Schuey-hatred is loathsome. Those people are having some brain-issues....

[Samurai]

It's a little sad that a lot of Frans detractors (Frans is not a F1 driver btw!!!!!) feel the need to come on now to take their shots at Frans.

I hadn't read the recent stuff in the thread up till now, but the wagon and people on it has deviated a long way from when bira first posted.

IMHO bira's memory must be mistaken (sometimes people get superimposed in the memory by others. There were more (an?)abrasive people posting something close to the tone of what bira remembers. But NOT Frans).
I remember VERY CLEARLY that Frans said things on the line of that he doesn't like Schumi's actions/character of course, but that he could never wish anyone to get injured!!!!!
And some of Schumi's fans gave some "thumbs up" remarks to that.
I remember it clearly and that I thought then: jeez Frans has got class.

Respected old posters like Nikolas Garth and JayWay (I guess this is why they're respected. They're fair and I trust their memories.) post in Frans' thread in the PC what I remember too.


btw I also remember a minority of MS fans were completely over-reacting like he had been victimized (by EI? the car?) and died or something. Afterwards there was discussion about this and that folks got to keep perspective, after all it was only a broken leg and not that he had been killed like Senna or anything.


I notice Frans detractors seem to have turned the argument into whether they think "Frans' website is in good taste or not"
or whether Frans said "it was ONLY a broken leg" (to some Schumacher fans who were moaning and groaning like it was the end of the world) and added that "he'll be racing again soon"
from the initial claim of whether he said "it was sad he didn't DIE"

IMO "it was ONLY a broken leg (for jeesh sake)"
does not equal!!!
"it was sad he didn't DIE" (this really doesn't sound like Frans at all)


I feel for you Frans. It must have been surprising and a real stab in the back to get such an unexpected and undeserved comment from bira (who's personal opinion of myself in such a fundamental matter (whether you would wish someone death) I would value too. Not to mention other people getting the completely wrong impression).

It's a case of mistaken identity IMO.

[orange]

>>IMHO bira's memory must be mistaken (sometimes people get >>superimposed in the memory by others. There were more (an?)>>abrasive people posting something close to the tone of what >>bira remembers. But NOT Frans).
>>I remember VERY CLEARLY that Frans said things on the line of >>that he doesn't like Schumi's actions/character of course, but >>that he could never wish anyone to get injured!!!!!
Well I wanted to keep out of this sensitiev topic , but heres my 2 cents.
I also clearly recall that there was a similay post ( as stated by Bira) about MS after his silverstone clash.
Was it Frans ? Iam only 95% sure ( and Iam glad that Iam not 100 %).
I think it was a spur-of-the moment comment and surely nobody would mean it.(Then again I should n't think/speak for others).
No offence.

[Gudrun]

I'm still a Schumacher Fan.
And I never did hate Damon Hill.
But sometimes I felt sorry for him.

[F1 Rumors]

Originally posted by ludlum
Bira i dont subscribe to atlas f1 . but seeing the way u have written in this thread i think i wont be regretting it.

Your loss, I can assure you. Bira's journalism and editing is far too professional to allow personal bias to override content...

in 94 MS was screwed by fia

This point keeps coming up. I've skipped past it a few times already in this thread -- but enough is enough. Whilst it is apparent to all and sundry that the FIA were terribly harsh with Schumacher in '94, they do not take into account the reason for that harshness...

Benetton were caught with illegal traction control software on their engine management computer. Asked to remove it, they responded that the subroutines were not used, but removing the functionality would have an adverse impact, as they could not be sure the resultant code was bug free... so Benetton would not be shifted on the subject in '94.

Adding insult to injury, it was demonstrated that a trivial memory patch from a lap-top computer (undetectable from the scrutineering viewpoint) would allow the so called obsolete code to be utilised in its original functionality -- so Benetton, potentially, had launch control and traction control functions for the race.

No-one could prove absolutely that Benetton cheated, but it was a pretty openly believed that they did so. Hence the FIA (a) dealing harshly with the team, and (b) revising the rules for the next season to insist that all legacy code was removed...

Back on topic...

Both camps were pretty adament in their distaste for the other, and both hold extremists; though the principle differences between the two groups would seem to be, Hill fans typically admit that Schumacher is a great driver, whilst Schumacher fans put Hill down as lucky to get a ride that was beyond him.

Schumacher fans, it seems hated Hill as the symbol of a serious challenger to their hero, who despite lacking the undeniable Schumacer talent, was providing something like an effective opposition, assisted by circumstance (FIA, car superiority, sunny race days, and other sundry assists). After all, no-one would ever be able to beat Schumacher on an equal footing, eh? [Note: irony!]

It'll be interesting to see how JPM and MS fans inter-relationships develop!

Just my tuppence worth.

[F1 Rumors]

Originally posted by HP
I said I would advice any driver not to obey the black flag, if they or the team knows it is done in error. Regardless if it be DH or MS or whoever.

[snip]

I'd say those who support that MS should have immediately stopped under the given circumstances, just try to imagine what you'd do if a police officer puts you in jail for overtaking someone in an no-overtaking zone? I do not know a country in which that would be an offence that puts you in jail. And if anyone tries to tell me, oh I just comply, and go to to jail.........

Two things, really:

First, suppose, for example, you think a yellow flag is being waved in error. What happens if you believe this to be the case, and take out a marshal? Or, perhaps, you believe the blue flag being waved at the end of the pitlane is a mistake? Then you can take out Heinz-Harald Frentzen at the Canadian GP, perhaps? The rules on flags are absolutely clear: obey them. Argue about mistakes later. They are as vital a part of the safety aspect of the sport as the measures taken to improve car structures and run off areas... and anyone who advises ignoring flags, I believe, has failed to adequately consider the consequences.

Second, taking the police officer example: if you resist going to jail, that is an offense in itself. If you comply, you'll be out when the mess is sorted, if you don't, you'll be doing real time, for a very real offense.

No offense, HP, but I don't think I'll be coming to you for advice!

[HP]

Originally posted by F1 Rumors


Two things, really:

First, suppose, for example, you think a yellow flag is being waved in error. What happens if you believe this to be the case, and take out a marshal? Or, perhaps, you believe the blue flag being waved at the end of the pitlane is a mistake? Then you can take out Heinz-Harald Frentzen at the Canadian GP, perhaps? The rules on flags are absolutely clear: obey them. Argue about mistakes later. They are as vital a part of the safety aspect of the sport as the measures taken to improve car structures and run off areas... and anyone who advises ignoring flags, I believe, has failed to adequately consider the consequences.

Second, taking the police officer example: if you resist going to jail, that is an offense in itself. If you comply, you'll be out when the mess is sorted, if you don't, you'll be doing real time, for a very real offense.

No offense, HP, but I don't think I'll be coming to you for advice!

Obviously in my argument I implied that in any given situation I know exactly what the law says and that was anyway the premise of my argument.

A yellow or blue flag isn't race ending as a black flag is even if shown in error, so I do make a distinction here. I would be willing to suffer a minor disadvantage, but not for a capital mistake. Also don't forget that 94 was MS first WDC year. You have to take that into consideration too, altough it's not a point of defending the actions of the Benetton team.

About the police example, if I know exactly what the law says, then it's my duty to set the police officer straigth. Police officers usually have a document where they can look up and verify the severity of the offense. Any decent police officer will be thankful if I point out an error of applying the law. In most democratic countries, I could give the police a lot of bad press in such a situation, simple as that. Common sense tells me to first try to sort out such things in a reasonable manner, which is not necessariily to comply and go to jail at first. I have seen statistics and police errors and judges error in countries that have a 'good' reputation of being a lawful country, and complying is not helping anybody. IMO I see too many people that out of fear of repercussion keep quiet and comply with injustice. Why do you think in certain countries corruption abounds? Because people do not speak up when they should, or then because they work hand in hand with some people.

If you have spent reasonable time in the country I presently live, IMO, you'd think twice about your point of view. People here have gone to jail for decades to fight against justice error. And they went there not because of justice error, but because they believe in a just system. IMO giving in to misjudgement of justice, is to agree with injustice. That's why I never would take your advice. The system here is improving, it's a democratic country now, but still about 90% of the present politicans have been indicted for corruption, or have been in jail for other real offenses against the law. It'll probably still takes 2 generations at least to really get things sorted out completely, as the old breed of politicans will be around for a while unfortunately.

I understand that my advice isn't popular, because it can become harder for my immediate well being, but what's more important? The well being of one person, or that of many? I've had guns pointed at me, because I actually did what those behind the guns pointing at me should have been doing. Because I did what was right, I got off the hook. Interestingly, this injust situation I sorted out at one place for the police, but which annoyed many people in a large part of the country, disappeared soon after that incident. One ordinary man can influence a country for better justice! So I'm not talking mere theory here. I understand humanity well enough to understand your point of view, but the law (and even more so it's application) is not always done in a just manner. And that is the main point of my argument. Sorry to point it out, but I can do it the compliant way you suggested, but then I compromise justice, or I can face injustice at face value, and make a change for the better. Personally I know what I prefer.

And before someone cares to point it out. In that aspect is my example with the police officer in regards to MS ignoring the black flag not excatly appropriate, like most comparisons anyway.