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1927 500 miles de Rafaele


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#1 Boniver

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Posted 02 November 2001 - 18:54

??.??.1927 500 miles de Rafaele (Arg)

1. J. Malcolm - Delage


more info ????

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#2 David McKinney

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Posted 02 November 2001 - 19:22

1927 500 Millas Argentinas, Rafaela, date unknown
1 Juan A Malcolm (Delage 2L)
2 Domingo Bucci (Hudson Special)
3 Ernesto Bóssola (Bugatti T35)

#3 FEV

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Posted 02 November 2001 - 20:46

I had found something on the internet some time ago about a race in Argentina September 2, 1927 with the following entrants :
Delage Grand Prix : Juan A. Malcolm & Eduardo Estanguet.
Bugatti : Jorge Perin & Ernesto Bossola.
Hudson Mecánica Nacional : Domingo Bucci
Carlos Zatuszceck might also have been part of it on a Mercedes-Benz.
This might be your race.

I only have a print of the web page I had taken this and I haven't (well my fiancée in fact) translated it yet. I think (but I'm not sure) that I had taken it at www.autovilsport.com. You might find more about it there. I hope your spanish is better than mine !

#4 Felix Muelas

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Posted 02 November 2001 - 21:23

Frank,

Whilst I browse the site to see what´s there, let me "slightly" correct the address that you pointed us to (that, btw, is a dead end!).

First, the main word in the address is missing two letters ! It´s not autovilsport but automovilsport. Makes a lot of sense...

Then the final part in your typing contains a dot too many, after the com, I mean.

So the right address should be http://www.automovilsport.com/

Anyway, thanks for the unvaluable info, my friend!

Now let´s see it ;)

Felix

#5 FEV

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Posted 02 November 2001 - 21:34

Yes Felix - finger trouble ! I found the page back through Google :
http://www.automovil...-argentina.html
This should be a better way to get access to this info. Again my spanish is worst than José-Luis' english ;) :lol: so maybe I'm totally wrong about this race. Please tell us !

Thanks for the help & correction
See you
Frank

#6 Felix Muelas

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Posted 02 November 2001 - 21:46

Originally posted by FEV
... about a race in Argentina September 2, 1927...This might be your race.


Well, Frank, unfortunately it isn´t :(
The race that the article makes mention to is a race in the track of Esperanza.

Anyway, Forum members able to read Spanish should point their browsers to this article that is the one, most probably, that FEV found.

Meanwhile...still looking for the 500 Millas de Rafaela 1927 results as Boniver wanted.

Felix

#7 Felix Muelas

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Posted 02 November 2001 - 21:59

Not yet lucky :(

I have found an interesting chronicle of the 1926 edition by Orlando Pérez Manassero and also a brief history of the Rafaela track at their official website.

But no data for 1927...yet.

Felix

#8 Boniver

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Posted 03 November 2001 - 16:28

29-aug-26 500 miles Rafaela Arg (1x)

21 x 37,9 km = 804 km

1 Raul Riganti Hudson 6h20'23" 126,925km/h
2 Enersto Blanco REO 6h46'41"
3 Emilio Kastulovick (Chil) Ansaldo

Jose Piovano Dodge
Armando Romitelli Buick
Florencio Fernandez Stutz
Tomas Roatta Hudson
Fernando Bini Buick
Ernesto Zanardi Alfa Romeo
Jorgo Perin Chrysler
Cesar Scarafia Hudson
Humberto D'Agostini Rugby

forfet Pietro Bordino Fiat


nota: start with interval 1'

#9 Marcor

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Posted 05 November 2001 - 18:30

This was from Les Sports (Belgian newspaper), Wednesday 26 November 1930. It could interest you.

Spring GP at Buenos-Aires, 400 km*
1- Carlos Zatuscheck, Mercedes 3h 4' 43" (125.3 kph)
2- Ricardo Caru (Fiat), 3h 11' 37" 6
3- Juan A. Malcolm (Maserati) 3h 18' 7" 8.

* I supposed the race was held on Sunday 23 or 16)


And in the same newspaper, Thursday 11 December 1930.

500 miles for tourism cars (Moron circuit)
1- Balbi (Graham-Paige) 4h 25' 2" 2
2- Perez (Chrysler) 4h 31' 35" 2
3- Balconi (Fiat) 4h 33' 4" 2

The winners of this race from 1915 to 1929:
1915: Philipini (Fiat)
1919: Piorano (Marwell)
1920: Masotro (Dodge)
1921: Romitelli (Studebacker)
1922: Ovides (Studebacker)
1923: Giustina (Chevrolet)
1924: Malcolm (X) **
1925: Detruci (X) **
1926: Riganti (Hudson)
1927: Malcolm (Delage), 127 kph
1928: Forrest-Greene (X) **
1929: Bucci (Hudson)

**: sic, Unknown car, but Malcolm (X) :lol:

The newpaper also mentioned the Arrecifes GP (500 km)
class 1:
1- J. Gandino (Fiat) 4h 18' 38" 4
2- R. Caru (Fiat) 4h 19' 18" 6
3- A. Marocchi (Gardner) 4h 20' 38" 2

20 starters including 3 Studebaker, 2 Fiat, 2 Gardner, 6 Hudson, 1 Essex, 1 Marmon, 1 Willis Knight, 1 Auburn, 1 Chrysler, 1 Ford and 1 Chevrolet

class 2:
1- J. Perez (Chevrolet) 3h 1' 52" 2
2- Diaz Castelli (Ford) 3h 5' 6" 8
3- Pedrazzini (Ford) 3h 16' 46" 4
4- Martinez (Chevrolet) 3h 29' 24" 4
5- Mendiorez (Chevrolet) 3h 29' 28"

5 starters, 5 finishers.

I'm not a specialist of the South-American races. Some names could be misspelled.

#10 David McKinney

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Posted 06 November 2001 - 06:36

Fascinating stuff, Marc

The 1930 Circuito Primavera at Mercedes was won by Zatuszek (Mercedes) from Carú (Fiat) and Malcolm (Fiat), which looks too close to your Morón result to be a different race. Except that the date I have for that event is 19 December...Perhaps my information on the date is wrong. Another reference says Carú was racing a Maserati at Mercedes, though Malcolm would be more likely.

The 500km race Arrecifes race was in September - 20th or 28th. Winner was Juan Gaudino (Chrysler) from Carú in his Fiat 519 with Américo Marrochi (Gardner) third.

The Morón race is a bit of a mystery. The ‘historic’ winners’ list tallies with the results of the Premio Otoño at Morón for some years, for the Premio Otoño at Mercedes in other years, and the 500 Millas Argentinas at Rafaela in other years again. And the cars listed don’t sound much like ‘tourism’ entries. As I said, a mystery.

#11 Marcor

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Posted 07 November 2001 - 01:15

David,

My information was found in two different issues of the newpaper 'Les Sports'. The first one, dated from Wednesday 26 November (1930), gave the results of the race that I've called Spring GP at Buenos Aires. The article spoke about a Spring GP in the Mercedes Circuit at Buenos-Aires. I've forgotten to mention the name of the circuit.
You said that the date you have for that event is 19 December. My source is a proof that it's indeed wrong. My post wouldn't be useless.

The second article was taken from the issue of Thursday 11 December 1930 and related two events: the first in the Moron Circuit and the second at Arrecifes.
About the Moron race, the newspaper (in French) used the terms: "Les 500 miles pour voitures de série". The date of the 1930 edition of that race was not said explicitely. It's the same for the 500km race Arrecifes.

The ‘historic’ winners’ list tallies with the results of the Premio Otoño at Morón for some years, for the Premio Otoño at Mercedes in other years, and the 500 Millas Argentinas at Rafaela in other years again.

Well, I've found this list in a non-specialist motorsport newspaper and I'm sure the newspaper never checked the information. I've said when I've posted it that I'm not a South-American race specialist. Yes the Moron race is a mystery for me, as it was the very first time I've found information about that race.

Do you know the historic winners of the Premio Otoño at Morón, the Premio Otoño at Mercedes and the 500 Millas Argentinas at Rafaela ?

#12 David McKinney

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Posted 07 November 2001 - 10:13

We're both saying the same thing - my December date for that race must be wrong.
The 1930 Moron race certainly seems to be for production cars, but I wonder how many of the earlier ones were?
I'll dig out some Premio Otono results when I get home - I'll also try and check an atlas (that's a book of maps, not a website:) ) in case Moron and Mercedes might be synonyms for the same venue.

#13 David McKinney

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Posted 07 November 2001 - 20:09

First, Mercedes and Morón are both in Buenos Aires province, and quite close to each other, but I shouldn’t think close enough to refer to the same venue.

I have the following details of Premio Otoño races, each one of 250 (scheduled) miles. I suspect, but cannot be sure, that in the missing years the race was not held.

1924
13/04, Morón
1 Juan Malcolm (Chandler)
2 Eduardo Luro (Stutz)
3 Jorge A Luro (Hudson)
4 Antonio Gerli (Lancia)
5 Antonio Trabucco (Hudson)

1925
14/07, Morón
1 Raúl Riganti (Stutz)
2 Ernesto Blanco (Reo)
3 M Lopez Talbo (Cadillac)
4 Domingo Bucci (Hudson)
5 Alberto Metivier (Haynes)
other starters
Juan Malcolm (Hudson)
Ermanno Blanchiardi (Chandler)
Ernesto Bóssola (Flint)
NOTE: race stopped after six laps

1927
10/03, Mercedes (40 laps)
1 Victor Pángaro (Bugatti 1500)
2 Domingo Bucci (Hudson)
3 Juan A Gaudino (Hupmobile)
4 Jorge Cíceres (Willys-Knight)
5 Fernando Bini (Buick)
other starters
Alfa Romeo
Lancia
Ballot
Chenard-Walcker
(13 starters)

1928
15/04, Mercedes
1 Eric Forrest-Greene (Bugatti)
2 Juan Malcolm (Delage)
3 Carlos Zatuszek (Mercedes-Benz K)
4 Urquiza Anchorena (Bugatti)

1931
12/04, Mercedes
(described as “the fifth Premio Otoño”)
1 Carlos Zatuszek (Mercedes-Benz SSK)
2 Ernesto Blanco (Reo)
3 Florencio Fernández (Marmon)
4 Cayetano D’Amico (Fiat 519)
5 Juan Otilio Medina (car unknown)
6 Ricardo Carú (Fiat 519)
other starters
Ernesto Bóssola (Mosquito Special)
Augusto McCarthy(Fiat 525)
Liberto Méstola (Cadillac)
Osvaldo Médica (De Soto)

1932
08/01, Mercedes?
1 Carlos Zatuszek (Mercedes-Benz SSK)
2 Eduardo Estanguet (Mercedes-Benz SSK)
3 "Juan Urquiza" (Stutz)
4 Tadeo Taddia (Chrysler)

Rafaela results might take a bit longer...

#14 FEV

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Posted 07 November 2001 - 20:27

First, Mercedes and Morón are both in Buenos Aires province, and quite close to each other, but I shouldn’t think close enough to refer to the same venue.



Could some of these races be point to point races, Moron-Mercedes for instance ?

#15 David McKinney

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Posted 08 November 2001 - 06:17

Very good suggestion, FEV, but in this case, no.

#16 David McKinney

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Posted 08 November 2001 - 06:33

500 Millas Argentinas, Rafaela
1926

Race started 06/06, stopped because of heavy rain, rerun 29/08
1 Raúl Riganti (Hudson)
2 Ernesto Blanco (Reo)
3 Emilio Kartsulovic (Auburn)
(only 3 cars finished within the stipulated 10hrs)
other starters
Domingo Bucci (Hudson) DNF
Juan Malcolm (Hudson)
other entrants
(26 entries)
Eduardo Estanguet(Bugatti)
Eduardo Carú (Alfa Romeo)
Ernesto Zanardi (Alfa Romeo)
Pablo Guglieri (Fiat)
Antonio Gerli (Lancia)
Florencio Fernandez (Stutz)
Antonio Gaudino (Hupmobile)
Eduardo Pedrazinni (Hupmobile)
Tomás Roatta (Hudson)
Cesár Scaraffia (Hudson)
Jorge Perin (Packard)
Studebaker
Studebaker
Studebaker
Cadillac
Armando Romitelli (Buick)
Fernando Bini (Buick)
Humberto D'Agostini (Rugby)
Jose Piovano (Dodge)

1927
date unknown
1 Juan Malcolm (Delage GP)
2 Domingo Bucci (Hudson)
3 Ernesto Bóssola (Bugatti T35)

1928
27/05
1 Eric Forrest-Greene (Bugatti)
2 Domingo Bucci (Hudson)
3 Carlos Zatuszek (Mercedes-Benz K)
4 César Milone (Delage 2.0)
5 Américo Marocchi (Studebaker)

1929
02/06
1 Domingo Bucci (Hudson)
2 Zatuszek/Brendt (Mercedes-Benz SSK)
3 Eleuterio Donzini (Hudson)
4 Raúl Riganti (Hudson)
other starters
Juan B Lavarello (Bugatti) DNF
Bugatti
Bugatti
Delage
Fiat
SPA
Mercedes-Benz

1930
06/09
1 Cayetano D'Amico (Gardner) (only classified finisher)
other starters
Ricardo Nasi (Hudson) finished, but out of time
Domingo Bucci (Hudson) DNF
Raúl Riganti (Hudson) DNF
Ansaldo (Hudson) DNF
Alberto Fontana (Hudson) DNF
Jorge Coen (Auburn) DNF
Eleuterio Donzini (Marmon) DNF
Eduardo Pedrazzini (Ford A) DNF

1931-33 - no race

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#17 Udo K.

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Posted 08 November 2001 - 14:57

David, a big thank you for these results. Great! If you should have more of that period from South America, please take the trouble and post them as well. Thanks again.

#18 David McKinney

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Posted 08 November 2001 - 18:53

500 Millas Argentinas (continued)
1935

08/08
1 Carlos Zatuszek (Mercedes-Benz SSK)
2 Fermín Martín (Fiat)
3 Pedro Pablo Orsi (Ford V8)
4 Osvaldo Parmigiani (Ford V8)
5 Augusto McCarthy (Chrysler)
6 Manuel de Teffé (BR, Alfa Romeo)
other starters
Landi (BR, Fiat) DNF
A N Other (BR)
Raúl Riganti (Hudson) DNF
Eleuterio Donzini (Hudson) DNF
Alfredo Olivari (Hudson)

1936
13/09
1 Ernesto Blanco
2 Luis E Brossutti (Mercedes-Benz SSK)
3 Augusto McCarthy (Chrysler)
4 Angel Garabato (Chrysler)
5 Carlos Garbarino (Ford)
other starters
Carlos Arzani (Alfa Romeo 2900A) DNF
Carlos Zatuszek (Mercedes-Benz SSK) DNF
Ricardo Jolly (Bugatti)
Francisco Santamarina (Hispano-Suiza)
Segunda D’Angelo (Fiat) DNF
Alfredo Olivari (Hudson) DNF
Hugo Abramor (Chrysler) DNF
Osvaldo Parmigiani (Ford) DNF

1937
12/09
1 Carlos Zatuszek (Mercedes-Benz SSK)
2 Luis E Brossutti (Mercedes-Benz SSK)
3 Eleuterio Donzini (Hudson)
4 Mario Reibaldi (Hudson)
5 Plácido Ruiz (Ford V8)
6 Domingo Marimón (Ford V8)
7 Ricardo Nasi (Dupont)
8 Jaime B Ortega (Ford V8)
9 Rodolfo Martini (Ford V8)
other starters
Artur Nascimento Jr (BR, Alfa Romeo 2.3) DNF
Chico Landi (BR, Alfa Romeo 2.3) DNF
Luis Landi (BR, Fiat) DNF
Cicero Porto (BR, Gallart) DNF
Ernesto Blanco (Reo) DNF
Domingo Ochoteco (Reo) DNF
Augusto McCarthy (Chrysler) DNF
Angel Garabato (Chrysler) DNF
Mario P Chiozza (Ford V8) DNF
Osvaldo Parmigiani (Ford V8) DNF
Juan Zerba Balbi (Hupmobile) DNF
other entries
Carlos Arzani (Alfa Romeo 8C-35) DNS
Ricardo Carú (Alfa Romeo 2900A) DNS

1938
11/09
1 Luis E Brossutti (Mercedes-Benz SSK)
2 Angel Garabato (Chrysler)
3 Osvaldo Parmigiani (Hudson)
4 Antonio Vásquez (Ford)
5 Ricardo Nasi (BMW)
other starters
Ernesto Blanco (Reo) DNF
José A Canziani (Chrysler) DNF
Manuel Manrique (Hudson) DNF
other entries
Domingo Ochoteco (Alfa Romeo 2900A)
Alfredo Olivari (Mercedes-Benz SSK)
Fermín Martín (Mercedes-Benz SSK)
Plácido Ruiz (Reo)

1939
10/09
1 Eleuterio Donzini (Cadillac V16)
2 Pedro Pablo Orsi (Ford)
3 Rodolfo Martini (Mercury)
4 Ernesto Nanni (Hudson)
5 Jose Fantó (Chevrolet)
other starters
Domingo Ochoteco (Alfa Romeo 2900A) DNF
Luis E Brossutti (Mercedes-Benz SSK) DNF
Alfredo Olivari (Mercedes-Benz SSK)
Ernesto Blanco (Reo Jumbo) DNF
Angel Garabato (Chrysler) DNF
José A Canziani (Chrysler) DNF

1940
10/11
1 Ernesto Blanco (Reo)
2 Angel Garabato (Chrysler)
3 Hugo Abramor (Chrysler)
4 Atilio Rossi (Ford)
5 Ernesto Nanni (Hudson)
other starters
Mario P Chiozza (Mercury Bimotor) DNF
Mario Reibaldi (Hudson)
César Scandroglio (Fairman)
José Pizzolatto (Chevrolet)
Domingo Marimón (Ford)

1941-1946 - no race

#19 David McKinney

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Posted 08 November 2001 - 21:47

500 Millas Argentinas (continued)
1947

--/06
(19 starters)
1 Pablo Gulle (Bugatti-Ford)
2 Ernesto Blanco (Reo)
3 Ernesto Nanni (Hudson or Ford V8)
4 Gabriel Sagrera (Chrysler or Reo)
5 Mario Sessarego (Chevrolet)
other starters
Pablo Luis Pessatti (Alfa Romeo 8C-35) DNF
Jose Fanto (Mercedes-Benz SSK) DNF
Adolfo Scandroglio (Caproni) DNF
Juan Galvez (Chrysler) DNF
Angel Garabato (Chrysler or Reo) DNF
Hipólito Bolcatti (Chevrolet) DNF
Enrique Burini (Ford V8)

1948
19/09
1 Luis E Brossutti (Mercedes-Benz SSK)
2 Pablo Gulle (Ford V8)
3 Emilio Kellenberger (Mercury)
4 Ernesto Blanco (Reo)
5 Cesar Scandroglio (Caproni)
other starters
Adriano Malusardi (Alfa Romeo P3) DNF
Victoria Rosa (Maserati 4CL)
Jose Fanto (Mercedes-Benz SSK) DNF
Angel Pascuali (Mercury Bimotor) DNF
Mario Sassarego (Cadillac) DNF
other entries
Pascual Puópolo (Graham) DNA

1949
23/10
1 Jose Fanto (Mercedes-Benz SSK)
2 Ricardo Nasi (Chrysler)
3 Emilio Kellenberger (Mercury)
4 Luis E Brossutti (Mercedes-Benz SSK)
5 Desiderio Kuriger (Hudson)
6 Mario Curioli (Chevrolet)
7 Julian Frau (Ford)
8 Otelo Zini (Plymouth)
9 Carlos Haristeguy (Riley)
10 Francisco Piombo
other starters
Italo Bizio (Alfa Romeo 2900A) DNF
Mario Sassarego (Cadillac) DNF
Ernesto Blanco (Reo)
Pablo Gulle (Ford V8)
Mario Reibaldi
M Gurolotti
Goicoechea
other entries
Adolfo Scandroglio (Caproni) DNS

1950
24/12
(22 starters)
1 Juan Manuel Fangio (Talbot-Lago)
2 Louis Rosier (Talbot-Lago)
3 Luis E Brossutti (Mercedes-Benz SSK)
4 Gabriel Sagrera (Reo)
5 Otelo Zini (Plymouth)
6 Mario Sessarego* (Cadillac)
7 Francisco Gonzalvez
8 Juan Tamorini (Maserati 4CL)
9 10 Natalio Cataudella
10 Francisco Piombo (Chrysler)
11 Mario Sessarego* (Alfa Romeo 8C-35)
other starters
Jose Froilán González (Talbot-Lago) DNF
Jose Fanto (Mercedes-Benz SSK)
Adolfo Schwelm Cruz (Jaguar XK120) DNF
Ernesto Blanco (Reo) DNF
Ramón Requejo (Ford) DNF
*I can’t explain it either...

1951
14/10
1 Jose Fanto (Mercedes-Benz SSK)
2 Emilio Kellenberger (Lincoln)
3 Ernesto Blanco (Reo)
4 Francisco Gonzalvez (Ford)
5 Julián Frau (Mercury)

other starters
Hector Niemitz (Alfa Romeo 2900A) DNF
Pablo Gulle (Chevrolet) DNF

1952-53 - no race?

More later

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#20 David McKinney

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Posted 09 November 2001 - 06:16

500 Millas Argentinas (continued)
1954

--/05?
1 Roberto Bonomi (Ferrari 250MM)
2 ??
3 Ernesto Blanco (Reo)

1955
29/05
1 Alberto Rodriguez Larretta (Ferrari 250MM)
2 José Félix Lopes (Chevrolet-Wayne)
3 Carlos Najurieta (Ferrari 375)
4 Ernesto Blanco (Alfa Romeo 308)
5 Jose or Oscar Camaño (Ferrari 225S)
other starters
E D Saenz Valiente (Ferrari 375 Plus) DNF

1956
(midyear)
1 Carlos Najurieta (Ferrari 375)
2 Jesús Iglesias (Chevrolet)
3 Ricardo Grandio (Maserati A6GCS)
4 Alfredo Pián (Ford)
5 Luis Milán'(Ferrari 625)
other starters
Ernesto Blanco (Alfa Romeo 308)
José Félix Lopes (Chevrolet) DNF
Ramón Requejo (Chrysler) DNF
César Rivero (Ford)
Miguel Schroeder (Jaguar)
Franco Bruno (Allard-Cadillac)

1957
12/05
starters included:
Jose Froilán González (Ferrari-Corvette)
Jésus Iglesias (Chevrolet)
Ramón Requejo (Chevrolet)
Enrico Sticone (Chevrolet-Wayne)

1958
14/09
1 Jose Froilán González (Ferrari-Corvette)
2 Jesús Iglesias (Wayne-Chevrolet)
3 Enrique Sticoni (Plymouth)
4 Jose Fantó
5 Roberto Bonomi (Maserati 300S)
6 Jorge Ternengo
7 Luis Brosutti (Maserati-Chevrolet?)
8 Domingo Vita
9 Kurt Delfosse (Gordini-Porsche)
10 Natalio Cataudella

1959
--/09
(22 starters)
1 Jose Froilán González (Ferrari-Corvette)
2 Roberto Bonomi (Maserati 300S)
3 Luis Brosutti (Maserati-Studebaker)
other starters
Oscar Cabalén (Alfa Romeo)
Angel Pascuali (‘bimotor’)
Jose Fantó (Corvette special)
Ramón Requejo (Requejo-Chevrolet) DNF
Jesús Iglesias (Wayne-Chevrolet)
Nasif Estéfano (Chevrolet)
Victor Risatti (Ford V8)

1960 - no race?

1961
16/10
(25th 500 Millas Argentinas)
1 Hugo Galaverna (Wayne-Chevrolet)
2 Alberto Rodriguez Larretta (Ferrari-Corvette)
3 Ramón Requejo (Requejo-Corvette)
other starters
Jose Fantó (Corvette special)
Natalio Cataudella (Chevrolet)
Salvador Porto (Chevrolet)

1962
02/09
1 Ramón Requéjo (Chevrolet)
2 Hugo Galaverna (Wayne-Chevrolet)
3 Desiderio Kuriger (Chevrolet)
4 Carlos W Loeffel (Chevrolet)
5 Anselmo Taberna (Chevrolet)
6 Orlando Sotro
7 Amado S Allovero (Chrysler)

1963
08/09
1 Vicente Cipolatti (Wayne-Chevrolet)
2 Nasif Estéfano (Chevrolet)
3 Ramón Requéjo (Chevrolet)
4 Jorge Cupeiro (Maserati-Chevrolet)
5 Luis Brosutti

1964-65 - no race?

#21 Martin Krejci

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Posted 09 November 2001 - 07:47

David, thank you for all those listings of results. I just like to ask you if you know what type of cars were allowed to race in each year. I mean Grand Prix/Racing cars, Sportscars/Specials, Touring cars or Le Mans-type Touring/Sports Cars (in 1920s and early 1930s) etc.
Martin

#22 David McKinney

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Posted 09 November 2001 - 15:11

Thought those Ferrari and Maserati references might have got you interested, Martin.:)
The races were almost always Formula Libra, which is how you get factory-built sportscars racing against re-engined GP cars and home-built single-seater specials. Both Coches especiales and Mecanica Nacional classes were admitted from at least the 1940s until well into the 1960s, afetr which fields were limited to the local version of F1

#23 Chico Landi

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Posted 10 November 2001 - 02:08

Fantastic Stuff, David!!! :up:

Thanks!

#24 Chico Landi

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Posted 10 November 2001 - 02:16

Maybe someone can help me...

I know that Chico Landi drove a Alfa Romeo 8C in Argentina in two other races:

october, 3rd 1937 at San Isidro
march, 27th 1938 at Necochea (I only know that Fangio was 7th)

Results anyone?

#25 David McKinney

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Posted 10 November 2001 - 08:25

I have no record of Landi in either of those races, Chico (which is not to say he didn’t take part in them). But I can say that he was not third in that Necochea race, nor among the first seven finishers.
He did however run in the 1/11/41 Circuito de Santa Fe, without being placed, and was fourth in the 22/11/41 Premio Cuidad de Buenos Aires

#26 Udo K.

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Posted 10 November 2001 - 11:05

David, could you give us the complete results as far as you've got them of the races mentioned by Chico and yourself?

Chico, do you have more on South American FL races of the 1930ies?

#27 Udo K.

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Posted 10 November 2001 - 14:06

Date of race 1956: June 6th
Usual distance was 92 laps = 804.6 KM

#28 Boniver

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Posted 12 November 2001 - 18:21

FEV, Felix, Marcor, Udok ,


and

David

Big thank for these results
Great :) :) :) :) :)

#29 Marcor

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Posted 15 November 2001 - 04:50

1939 500 Millas Argentinas (at Rafaela)

Les Sports, in his edition of Thursday 19 Octobern, published the results of the 17th edition of the race organised by the AC of Argentine.

1- Donzini (Cadillac) 800 km in 5h 34' (144 kph)
2- Orsi (Ford)
3- Martini (Mercury)

The following is different from what David wrote. According the brief dispatch in Les Sports, Soggetti (Fiat) would be 4th,Vezzosi (Alfa Romeo) 5th and Ochoteco (Alfa Romeo) 6th.

I admit I'm more inclined not to believe this version !!!

#30 Marcor

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Posted 09 December 2001 - 23:20

i've found this results in Englebert Magazine:

GP of A.C. Argentina (10 May 1922), Buenos-Aires / Rosario and Rosario / Buenos-Aires, 2 x 350 km
1- Antonio Ovides (Studebacker), 10h 23' 51"
2- Luis Roll (Buick), 10h 38' 20"
3- P. Malga (Buick), 10h 46' 12"
4- J. Casas (Hudson), 11h 12' 50"
5- Angel d'Annunzio (Cadillac) 11h 34' 36"
6- Juan Malcon (Dodge) 11h 47'
7- Raul Riganti (Packard #20) 12h 12' (won stage 1 but had tyres problems later)
8- Guillermo Burke (Studebacker)
9- J. Macchi (Chevrolet)
10- E. Biancardi (Chandler)
11- Ismael Aguado (Cole)
12- Fernando Neri (Chevrolet)

22 starters, 10 DNF including Gerli (fatal crash for him and his mechanic Tedeschi)

#31 Boniver

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Posted 10 December 2001 - 12:17

Marcor

thanks for posting it

:) :) :)

#32 VDP

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Posted 10 December 2001 - 14:39

Is it the same R Riganti who drove at indy in a maserati 8 CL in 1941


Robert

#33 David McKinney

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Posted 10 December 2001 - 15:20

Yes, and the 1923 Indianapolis 500 in a Bugatti

#34 Marcor

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Posted 11 December 2001 - 15:05

and now same race, 1921 (date unknown)
GP of A.C. Argentina, Buenos-Aires Rosario / Rosario Buenos Aires, 2 x 350 km

1- Mariano de la Fuente (Packard) 11h 04'
2- Martin de Alzaga Unzue (Hudson) 11h 10' 6"
3- Juan Masero (Dodge) 11h 19' 12"

34 starters: 26 cars from USA, 2 from France, 4 from Italy, 1 from UK, 1 from Belgium.

in 1923 5 Bugattis took part in the Indianapolis 500 miles: Pierre de Vizcaya, P. de Cystria, Zborowsky, Riganti and Martin de Alzaga.

#35 Marcor

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Posted 13 December 2001 - 23:42

My two last replies would be beter located in the Gran Premio thread. The results were from the 4th and 5th edition of the Gran Premio Tourisme de Carretero.

#36 Doug Nye

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Posted 24 February 2002 - 14:56

Sorry once more - still finding my way around this ocean of information. Have any of you gentlemen researching South American racing ever come across entries for a Mors of any description - post 1908 but probably petering out in the 1920s? At least one and possibly both of the 1908 Grand Prix Mors ended-up in the Argentine.

DCN

#37 Marcor

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Posted 24 February 2002 - 16:43

Manuel Diez won the 1916 edition of the GP Turismo de Carretero driving a Mors, covering the 732 km in 15h 05' 40" (46.408 km/h).

#38 Doug Nye

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Posted 24 February 2002 - 19:54

I wonder if Diez was driving one of those '08 Grand Prix cars. One of the pair - we don't know whether it was Jenatzy's or Landon's in the Dieppe race - is a fairly recent addition to the magnificent Collier Collection in Naples, Florida, and is under restoration at this moment (having dropped a valve). It was found in Argentina circa 1960 and taken to the USA son after.

Thanks for the gen. Terrific...

DCN

#39 David McKinney

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Posted 24 February 2002 - 20:33

The car with which Manuel Diez won the 1916 Gran Prémio Nácional (it wasn't a TC race until much later) may indeed have been one of the 1908 GP cars. One of two bad pictures I have of it in that race is a front-on one which shows it to be very similar, at least up to the scuttle, but seems to have been rebodied beyond that. If it was a 1908 GP car. My problem - one of many - is that I am not familiar with the entire Mors range, including production cars, so can't be specific.
There were two other Mors entries in that race, one finishing 4th in the hands of a chap called Frere with the other, driven by Diego Basset, one place further back.

Quite a few other Mors mentions in Argentina 1909-1916:
1909
J Chepa 2nd in a km sprint on 25/10
1915
Diego Basset 3rd in a small-circuit race on the San Martín racecourse in Buenos Aires 8/6
1916
Manuel Diez won a race at San Martín in April
And on 27/10 A Cortona was 4th in the Copa Jose A Costano race out of Castelar

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#40 Felix Muelas

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Posted 24 February 2002 - 22:30

Two very uninteresting points on a sea of wonderful information :

Originally posted by David McKinney
The car with which Manuel Diez won the 1916 Gran Prémio Nácional

No accent there, David. Nacional

Originally posted by Marcor
Manuel Diez won the 1916 edition of the GP Turismo de Carretero driving a Mors, covering the 732 km in 15h 05' 40" (46.408 km/h).

Carretera ;)

Felix

#41 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 24 February 2002 - 22:43

Felix,
Does this mean we don't have to ask Bira for a Spanish spell-checker? ;)

#42 Felix Muelas

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Posted 24 February 2002 - 23:14

Hans : :lol:

But obviously two Spanish spell-checkers will always be better than one! ;)

Well, actually they will be twice as expensive...and probably will tend not to agree, but that´s built in our nature, you know :rotfl:

Un abrazo - Aloha

Felix

#43 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 24 February 2002 - 23:30

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

#44 David McKinney

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Posted 25 February 2002 - 05:57

:blush:

#45 Doug Nye

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Posted 25 February 2002 - 09:39

Dave, everybody - re Mors GP cars - this is what theylooked like at the 1908 Grand Prix, Dieppe, IF, IF, IF I can press these buttons in the right order....


Posted Image

#46 Doug Nye

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Posted 25 February 2002 - 09:44

Posted Image

#47 Doug Nye

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Posted 25 February 2002 - 09:49

Wa-hey!!! Have I cracked it???

First pic shows both '08 Mors, with Landon and Jenatzy at the wheel - this one (which I trust is hear, I think I just glimpsed it on the lightning fast preview) shows Landon in his. Note the midship scuttle cut away with the oiling glasses exposed within, a very distinctive feature of these cars which gave them a really rakish 'waisted' appearance, v. sexy to offset that great clubfoot of a massive wall-like radiator up front. Do the rebodied Argentiune cars bear any resemblance to the front end, suspension, wheelbase, wheels, driving position, etc, that we see here???Posted Image

#48 Doug Nye

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Posted 25 February 2002 - 10:29

Posted Image

An awesome racing driver in an awesome car on an awesome circuit. Tony Brooks, Vanwall, winning the 1958 Belgian Grand Prix at Spa-Francorchamps.

#49 David McKinney

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Posted 25 February 2002 - 15:01

Was that before or after the Vanwall raced at Rafaela?
(Sorry)

Those Mors pix are better than the 1908 GP ones I could find last night. I'll make a comparison with the Diez pix when I get home tonight.

#50 David McKinney

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Posted 25 February 2002 - 19:32

Hmm, dunno.
The bad pictures I have are from La Nacion, as reproduced in Historia Deportiva del Autimobilismo Argentino. One is a front-3/4 line drawing back to the scuttle, which makes the car appear similar to your 2-car shot, except that the front suspension is very different. It's very possible it's a bad drawing, because I don't think the suspension set-up they show would work!
The second is a fuzzy photo taken from the nearside rear wheel looking forwards, which - significantly? - shows the exhaust coming through low on the bonnet side, not high as in the 1908 shots.
As I said earlier, both pictures show a cowling between engine and passengers which is not evident in the 1908 photo.
My conclusion: the Diez Mors is probably one of the 1908 GP cars