15 replies to this topic

[Hans Etzrodt]

I believe the answer will be found in a contemporary source, published in 1949, possibly even 1948. I found the earliest mention of the term Formula 1 published 1949 in Motor Racing 1947, page 89, by John Eason Gibson. It says there,
“The following are the current regulations governing Racing Cars including the 1948-1953 International formulae and Sports Cars as defined in the International Sporting Code.
RACING CARS
Formula 1, (F.I. 1) …... meaning (Formula International 1)
Formula 2, (F.I. 2) .. ” meaning (Formula International 2)

Here some thoughts – and they are not mine.
1) Formula A and B certainly preceded F1 and F2.
2) Perhaps the solution has something to do with 500cc racing, which was never called Formula . In Britain, where it started, it was originally referred to simply as 500cc racing. But at some time this changed to F3 and it may have been when F1 and F2 were coined.
3.) I saw a reference to Formula 3 written as F III! It was always F III before it became F 3. So this leads to the natural question, was Formula 1 written as F I before F1 and F 2 was earlier written as F II as well? So the progression was F A, then F I then finally F 1. Now the exact dates are another matter.

Please always quote your sources!

[Hans Etzrodt]

While searching through old copies of Das Auto, I found in issue #16 of 1949 the Reims racing report from July 1949, which mentioned both, Formel 1 and Formel 2. In #17, about the Bari race, it reads Formel 2. In the Lausanne race report from August 1949 of issue #18, pg. 20, written by Paul Pietsch, it is typed Formel I and Formel II instead of 1 and 2.

I wonder what was written in those old Motor Sport, The Motor or Les Sports issues of 1948 and 1949? Does anybody know earlier mentioning of the terms Formula 1 and Formula 2, possibly in 1948 already?

[Michael Müller]

Quote

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
I believe the answer will be found in a contemporary source, published in 1949, possibly even 1948. I found the earliest mention of the term Formula 1 published 1949 in [b]Motor Racing 1947, page 89, by John Eason Gibson. It says there,
“The following are the current regulations governing Racing Cars including the 1948-1953 International formulae and Sports Cars as defined in the International Sporting Code.
RACING CARS
Formula 1, (F.I. 1) …... meaning (Formula International 1)
Formula 2, (F.I. 2) .. ” meaning (Formula International 2)

This may be published in 1949 or even in 1948, but the title is "Motor Racing 1947", so it is obvious that the quoted International Sporting Code has been released in that year already. As far I know (don't ask for sources, it's in my brain only) somewhere in summer 1947 the new sporting code has been announced for 1948 onwards introducing a new 2 liter formula for race cars, because this was basis for Ferrari's decision to built the Spyder Corsas Tipo 166. No info on my side whether it was Formula 2 or Formula B, but the word "International" was probably used, as the chassis numbers of the SCs were changed form "C" ending (corsa) to "I" ending (international or internazionale).
What does is say about sports car racing? There's also sticking something in my brain that an European Championship for 2 litre sports cars has been announced called "International Series" or something similar using the wording "international".

[Hans Etzrodt]

I am truly surprised about the lack of response this thread has received. I did not expect that. Honestly! Mind you, I am talking here ***********Formula 1*********** the main topic at TNF, which admittedly is not my strength, since I spend most of my time with Grand Prix racing history. This means either that you guys are still scraping on the surface and know nothing about Formula 1 or are just bored to death with this topic. If you want to find the nuggets, you have to start digging. I thought that the majority understood this concept after all this time here. I just cannot believe that there is nobody at TNF besides Michael and the rest have nothing to say when the subject turns a bit serious.

Having said this, here is what I found in Das Auto, July 1948, No. 7, pg. 18 Overheard in Bremgarten Forest...Count Lurani optimist? It can be assumed that the question of a German participation in international motor sport will be brought to debate at the fall conference of the FIA. And what will the resolution be? FIA Vice-President Count Lurani judges the situation favorably.
Then a new paragraph about
German prospects for success. …..And the cars? Formula 1 with compressor does not come into question for us…. Formula 2 – 2 liter w/o compressor is present in Germany: AFM…. This is the earliest mention of the terms Formula 1 and 2 I could find.

And what about you? Anybody?

[Roger Clark]

Hans, I'm sure many of us would contribute if we had anything to add; it's not lacl of interest.

I do, however, object to your assertion that Grand Prix racing was in some sense superseded by Formula 1. We continued to watch Grand Prix racing for many years Formula 1 defined the regulations under which Grand Prix racing usually took place (except in 1952-53), it did not replace it. Eventually , of course Bernie Ecclestone redifned the terms for commercial reasons, but some of us still prefer the old usage.

[Michael Müller]

Don't think it's lack of interest. We have discussed this topic already in the past, and it should be clear that only contemporary literature could help us to answer this question. Publications from 1950 onwards do not help, because the term "F1" was in general use then. Hans is going the right way, but frankly spoken, who of us belongs to the lucky ones having personal access to contemporary original newspapers or magazines?? Believe this condition will reduce the numbers of potential posters considerably.

In my opinion this question can only be answered by the original version of the 1948 FIA rules, which had been released somewhere in 1947. And if these rules say Formula A and B, we have to go one year further. Other sources could be original regulations issued by the organizers of 1948/49 events, where the eligible cars should be described.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Quote

Originally posted by Michael Müller
.....this question can only be answered by the original version of the 1948 FIA rules, which had been released somewhere in 1947.....

Michael,
How about the October meeting of the FIA in Paris? Supposedly they decided on the Formula II/B/2 after their debate and at that time the term Formula I/A/1 may have been coined also to differentiate the Grand Prix formula from the Voiturette formula.

Here is what a friend found while searching for the answer and e-mailed his findings to me:
"Motor Sport, February 1948, pg. 39 The FIA surprised a lot of people by announcing an additional Formula for 1948 Grand Prix racing..........Formula I, and Formula II being for super-charged cars up to 500cc and unsupercharged cars up to 2000cc.

"Motorsport. The first I came across was in the February issue p.39. It would appear from this that FIA used the terms F I and F II. There is no mention of either F 1 or F 2, but there are other references to F I and F II in the same article. The next reference I found was not until the June edition when the GP de Roussillon was described as "for Formula II cars...."

Does anybody have some weekly motoring magazines from October/November 1947, containing some news of the FIA and CSI meetings in Paris after October 23, when the Paris Salon opened?

[Michael Müller]

First of all hereafter some links to earlier threads covering this topic.
http://www.atlasf1.c...=&threadid=7728
http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=16027
http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=28178
It seems that Hans has corrected his earlier opinion that the term Formula 1 only appeared as late as 1950.

The mentioning of FI/II resp. F1/2 in various 1948 magazines finally confirm that at least in 1948 these terms had been common, and with the clear link to the FIA obviously they had been official too.

But let’s start earlier with Formula A and B. Some of the postings in the earlier threads say that “Formula A” - the “Grand Prix Car Formula” - was fixed by the FIA in 1946, and that “Formula B” - or F2 - followed for 1948. That makes no sense. It is unusual to name something “A” without having simultaneously at least “B”, and in 1946 there had been no signs of a future 2 litre class for racing cars, even not to come into force as late as 1948. Therefore I doubt that the original name of F2 was Formula B. So what was “Formula B”? The old “voiturette class” of 1.5 liter s/c was now Formula A, therefore the secondary class needed new definition. This was usually 1100 cc s/c resp. 2000 cc u/c, but I cannot find the term “Formula B” for this class, it simply was named “voiturette class”. However, of course I may be wrong.

What changed for 1948? For GP racing not much, eacept that probably the term “Formula A” changed to “Formula 1” or “Formula I”. The changes in the secondary class were deeper, the new “Formula 2/II/B” was still for 2 liter u/c engines, but supercharged cars had been limited to 500 cc. There are some signs that there was even an European championship for this class, but I’m missing confirmation. The old 1946/47 voiturette class was not very successful, besides Cisitalias and Gordinis mainly prewar machinery was entered. Obviously the new formula for 1948 was more attractive, as a lot or organizers changed their events from F1/I/A to F2/II/B, and also several new cars arrived on the scene, some of them as early as end 1947 already.

But what was the name of this class, and when was it officially announced?
The October 1947 meeting of the FIA, yes, may be. But there are signs that already somewhat earlier the things to come had been known. A potential example may be the development of cars at Ferrari during 1947. Their planning from the beginning was to build Grand Prix cars and alternatively sports cars, and the first 2 Ferraris had been 1500 cc sports racers, one standard barchetta-like roadster, and the other a cycle-winged roadster. The cycle fender layout was abandoned in summer 1947, and the car was rebodied into a standard barchetta roadster. The strange thing is that car no. 3 which appeared the first time at Modena on September 28 was a cycle fendered car again, developed to run “dual use”, in the 2 liter sports car category, and with stripped lights and fenders in “Formula 2/II/B”. So, end July / early August 1947 one car was converted from “cycle fender” to roadster, and a few weeks later a new car was put into service with a similar layout as abandoned shortly before. For me the only logical explanation is that somewhere end August / early September 1947 something happened which caused this turnaround in Ferrari’s layout policy, and possibly this was the introduction - or unofficial pre-announcement - of the new 2 liter formula.
It is also interesting to note that the development work on the future Ferrari Grand Prix car came to a halt, and everything at Maranello was concentrated on building a series of 2 liter “dual use” race cars eligible for F2/II/B and also sports car races, the famous Spyder Corsas. So, what was so interesting with this new 2 liter Formula that Enzo delayed his longlasting Grand Prix dreams?

But this does still not answer the question about the official name of this 2 liter formula, however, considering the various quoted articles I am more or less sure it was Formula 2 (or II). So again, what was “Formula B”? From 1948 on it was “F2/II”, and before “voiturettes”. Was there ever a “Formula B”? Or was “B” only the logical follow-up of some writers on “Formula A”? And if there was no “B”, why should there be an “A”? Blasphemous thinking, I know!

Another theory is very simple. Isn’t it possible that the terms “A/B”, “I/II”, and “1/2” are simply are based on the original FIA text using these terms as chapter or sentence descriptions? Example:
Motor racing is divided into the following technical formulas:
A: ........
B: ........
The following year another secretary was typing the text, believing that Roman digits look nicer, and the next year the the text was re-typed again by using 1 and 2 for the describing chapters. Very revolutionary theory, but who knows, may be we are discussing here the different typing layouts of some secretaries ...?

In order to find out the truth, or at least something which looks like the truth, I only can repeat: we need the original 1946 and 1947 announcements, and if I say “original” I mean original, no quotes by external writers.

[Vitesse2]

Motor Sport December 1947 p376 Formula Racing
It seems that the existing Formula will govern International racing until 1953, with the alteration that from next year cars can be run on any fuel the entrant desires to use. For new boys, this means up to 1.5 litres supercharged, and up to 4.5 litres unblown. A most interesting voiturette Formula is also to be put into operation, confining small-car races to blown cars up to 500cc, and unblown cars up to 2 litres. This is a most intriguing development, if a nasty swipe to purveyors of British supercharged eleven-hundreds, such as the K3 MG.

Note the terminology of this report! In late 1947 Motor Sport are still referring to voiturettes. I would have thought that had the terms Formula A & B been promulgated, they would have adopted them or at least acknowledged their existence.

Just to add grist to the mill, here is an earlier report from Motor Sport - note the allegedly fixed upper limit for unsupercharged engines ...

Motor Sport, May 1946, p105 New Formula
The AIACR has met again and provisionally decided on a formula for the classic races of 1947-51 with which few people will wish to quibble. No impositions will exist, beyond a capacity limit of 1.5 litres for supercharged engines and 3 litres for un-supercharged engines. Special fuel is to be permitted. This is the picture at present and it looks very satisfactory. But confirmation is to follow, at another AIACR meeting next month.. A change seems unlikely, however.

Presumably there was an outcry from the French, who would have been left with a lot of useless 4.5 litre machinery ...

[Michael Müller]

Quote

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Note the terminology of this report! In late 1947 Motor Sport are still referring to voiturettes.

Confirms my theory, no Formual B end of 1947, and for 1948 we have F2/II.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Quote

Originally posted by Michael Müller
.....Another theory is very simple. Isn’t it possible that the terms “A/B”, “I/II”, and “1/2” are simply are based on the original FIA text using these terms as chapter or sentence descriptions? Example:
Motor racing is divided into the following technical formulas:
A: ........
B: ........
The following year another secretary was typing the text, believing that Roman digits look nicer, and the next year the the text was re-typed again by using 1 and 2 for the describing chapters. Very revolutionary theory, but who knows, may be we are discussing here the different typing layouts of some secretaries ...? .....

Very good thinking, Michael

[Vitesse2]

From The Motor, November 12th 1947, page 392:

".... this Grand Prix Formula No. 2 which everyone is talking about ...."

Later in the same article the plain term "Formula 2" appears for the first time and on the next page "Grand Prix Formula 1".

From The Motor, December 31st 1947, page 584-5:

"In years to come, 1947 will be pointed out as the year when it was decided ... to adopt not one Grand Prix Formula, but two, for the succeeding year ..... there is much activity all over the place in the construction of 2-litre cars for Formula Two."

However, just a week later The Motor was instead referring to Formula A and Formula B!

[VAR1016]

Quote

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Motor Sport December 1947 p376 Formula Racing
It seems that the existing Formula will govern International racing until 1953, with the alteration that from next year cars can be run on any fuel the entrant desires to use. For new boys, this means up to 1.5 litres supercharged, and up to 4.5 litres unblown. A most interesting voiturette Formula is also to be put into operation, confining small-car races to blown cars up to 500cc, and unblown cars up to 2 litres. This is a most intriguing development, if a nasty swipe to purveyors of British supercharged eleven-hundreds, such as the K3 MG.

Note the terminology of this report! In late 1947 Motor Sport are still referring to voiturettes. I would have thought that had the terms Formula A & B been promulgated, they would have adopted them or at least acknowledged their existence.

Just to add grist to the mill, here is an earlier report from Motor Sport - note the allegedly fixed upper limit for unsupercharged engines ...

Motor Sport, May 1946, p105 New Formula
The AIACR has met again and provisionally decided on a formula for the classic races of 1947-51 with which few people will wish to quibble. No impositions will exist, beyond a capacity limit of 1.5 litres for supercharged engines and 3 litres for un-supercharged engines. Special fuel is to be permitted. This is the picture at present and it looks very satisfactory. But confirmation is to follow, at another AIACR meeting next month.. A change seems unlikely, however.

Presumably there was an outcry from the French, who would have been left with a lot of useless 4.5 litre machinery ...

Vitesse, this is fascinating.

Had that proposed formula (1.5 litres s/c and 3 litres U/S) been adopted, F1 history might have been very different.

Of course the French would have been very fed up as you point out, but consider this: when Ferrari introduced the Lampredi designed 3.3 litre car, it was not quite enough to beat the Alfas. Now, I think that the 4.5 litre limit was really very generous - even by the standards of the time and Ferrari/Lampredi were smart enough to recognise the fact. Had the proposed formula been adopted, then I suspect Mercedes-Benz may have actually built the planned five W165 cars in 1953/4. Whether or not this would have kept Alfa in the sport is another question entirely of course. Given Ferrari's results with the 3.3 litre I would guess that it would have been some time before a realistic 3-litre challenger would have appeared.

VAR1016

[Vitesse2]

Quote

Originally posted by VAR1016


Vitesse, this is fascinating.

Had that proposed formula (1.5 litres s/c and 3 litres U/S) been adopted, F1 history might have been very different.

Of course the French would have been very fed up as you point out, but consider this: when Ferrari introduced the Lampredi designed 3.3 litre car, it was not quite enough to beat the Alfas. Now, I think that the 4.5 litre limit was really very generous - even by the standards of the time and Ferrari/Lampredi were smart enough to recognise the fact. Had the proposed formula been adopted, then I suspect Mercedes-Benz may have actually built the planned five W165 cars in 1953/4. Whether or not this would have kept Alfa in the sport is another question entirely of course. Given Ferrari's results with the 3.3 litre I would guess that it would have been some time before a realistic 3-litre challenger would have appeared.

VAR1016

To a certain extent, this is now "old news"! I've since uncovered a lot more on this subject, which has caused me to change my opinions slightly. I'm still sorting it out, but will soon be able to provide a radical reinterpretation of this topic. Suffice it to say that I feel that some of the published histories (such as they are ) are not entirely correct! Very little has been written or researched on this period recently, although Alessandro Silva (and I) hope to change this soon!

[VAR1016]

Quote

Originally posted by Vitesse2


To a certain extent, this is now "old news"! I've since uncovered a lot more on this subject, which has caused me to change my opinions slightly. I'm still sorting it out, but will soon be able to provide a radical reinterpretation of this topic. Suffice it to say that I feel that some of the published histories (such as they are ) are not entirely correct! Very little has been written or researched on this period recently, although Alessandro Silva (and I) hope to change this soon!

In that case I very much look forward to seeing what you manage to turn up.

Meanwhile, as a lover of speculation, I would be interested in your comment about what might have been - or should this be a new thread?

VAR1016

[Vitesse2]

I don't want to seem like a killjoy, but I'd like to leave this aside until I can put all the evidence up for examination!

There are other elements to this which predate the Ferrari 375 by some years and which explain why the 3-litre proposal was put up and then rejected .... and the French position is VERY complicated!