47 replies to this topic

[man]

I must say, I was/am a huge Gerhard Berger fan. I was just wondering how you folks rated him in his younger days.

I maybe a bit biased here, but I think he was one of the most impressive turbo drivers. I think that it really suited his attacking style of driving and I think he lost an edge once turbo's were banned for '89. His drives in late 1987 demonstrated this. For 1988 I think he was rated as a driver as high as he ever was after taking the fight to the dominant McLaren MP4/4's.

People also forget that more often than not, he was quicker than Mansell at Ferrari in 1989 its just that Berger had more reliabilty problems. I think his crash at Tamburello also took something out of him and he was never quite the same driver again. Its a real shame he decided to leave Ferrari in 1989 because he may well have had a chance at going for the championship in '90.

Also, his qualifying performances against Senna look more respectable than Prost's record against the Brazilain.

[Rediscoveryx]

I'm also a big Bergerfan and I think he definately was one of the best late 80's drivers. I agree with you that Berger was just as impressive as Mansell in 1989, but without the high point of Mansells brilliant race in Hungary.

[Zawed]

I'm a big Berger fan too. I have read that he really enjoyed racing the turbo cars, especially the Benetton BMW. I thought Berger was just as good as Mansell when they were teamed up at Ferrari. It's a shame that his performances in the later stages of his career (especially at Bennetton) were'nt that great. For me, his win at Hockenhiem in 1994 for Ferrari is the most memorable. The first GP that I watched where he won. Until then I had only read about him winning races.

[911]

Berger was the revelation of 1986. He had many outstanding drives and his victory in Mexico was well deserved (although he did stay out on the same tires while the others pitted, but that was his strategy). He continued to shine in '87, especially towards the latter half of the season where he basically checked himself out of the race in Japan & Austrailia. He simply motored away from everyone!

He was a great teammate to Senna, too. I think Senna really benefitted from their friendship as Gerhard showed him the lighter side of life.

Berger has always been one of my favorite drivers. His casual appearance reminded me a little of James Hunt. My best memory of Berger is winning the German GP in '97. After all he had been through that year, he certainly shut a lot of people up after that race.

911

[Chris Bloom]

I felt that Gerhard lost his edge after that accident at Imola in 1989.

Chris

[BertlF]

IMHO G Berger was a driver with enormous talent and lots of 'pure speed'. He had obviously the right feeling for driving the Turbo cars with 1000 and more HP and it was certainly entertaining for the audience seeing him driving as well as it was fun for him to drive his style. In his own book he recognises only Senna as beeing faster and ultimately better than him and I believe that, given the same car in the late 1980's, he could match Mansell and Prost at any time.

One thing I was always missing with him was the pure determination to make it to the top. Unlike Stewart, Lauda, Senna, Schumacher (just to mention a few) he seemed not so determined and willing to focus everything to success in F1. 'Good life', girls, jokes and pranks (has anybody heard the episode where he threw out Senna's ultra-expensive briefcase with the freshly signed McLaren contract out of the helicopter?) were always important for him and maybe this contributed for him not to achieve the ultimate goal, winning a WDC. Also his choice of team seemed not to be always the best, maybe driven more by monetary reasons that success orientated.

Having said that I recognize and admire his achievements in F1, making him one of the best earning drivers of his time and an unricalled character. Now, as BMW's Motorsport director he can benefit from his management skills (taught by his father in the hauling business) and his experience from more than 200 GP's. BMW/Williams will get there, I'm sure! What a nice way to continue a shining career!

Bert

[Kpy]

Originally posted by BertlF

............... one of the best earning drivers of his time ......................... he can benefit from his management skills

Bert

I'm often wrong, but wasn't he the only GP driver in his time (and I think since) to have been his own manager. He certainly knew how to negotiate a decent salary.
A nice guy with it.

[mike_w]

Originally posted by Kpy

A nice guy with it.

I can confirm that....briefly met the man at Friday qualifying for the British GP in 1988 and got his autograph.

Also, I think Gerhard was the tallest driver of his era? I guess when I met him it put paid to my dreams of driving stardom (!)......16 years old and already bigger than the lankiest guy in F1!

[deangelis86]

Originally posted by mike_w


I can confirm that....briefly met the man at Friday qualifying for the British GP in 1988 and got his autograph.

Also, I think Gerhard was the tallest driver of his era? I guess when I met him it put paid to my dreams of driving stardom (!)......16 years old and already bigger than the lankiest guy in F1!

Or second lankiest compared to Eddie Cheever....

[jmp85]

there are a lot of amusing berger incidents...

him replacing senna's passport picture with that of a woman in a birthday suit and in a "compromising" position

him in a car with senna (who was driving): berger suddenly pulls the parking brake hard, while simultaneously throwing the keys out the window

him and senne throwing poor johnny herbert's bike into the montreal rowing basin, while the brit was in the bathroom

him and liza dennis trashing senna's room, putting frogs (one of senna's phobias) in the brazilian's bed

him and jean alesi driving jean todt's fiat to a fiorano test session. as they arrive in front of the pits, berger pulls the parking brake (again!) and the fiat rolls over and lands upside down in front of the mechanics and an unhappy jean todt!

him and jean alesi after jerez 97 (his last race): jean is gently teasing gerhard about how he's done with racing. berger steals jean's passport, then rips it apart, and runs to his rental car! jean is rather unnerved -- as you can guess -- and runs behind berger, gets in his own rental car, and the two go stock-car racing on the small roads... let us just say that the rental place was less than pleased the next morning...;)

hum, do we want to start the "favorite berger stories" thread?;)

(there are a lot more where that came from... if you all can read french, i suggest you take a look at this dailyf1-forum thread)

cheers, jmp85

[aportinga]

JMP85...Great stories man! I never heard of em!

Berger defines that 60/70's driver without a care - always scoping the babes and having a good time. Perhaps he was the last of such driver to have such an open character in what is now a very cold world.

It was stated - un-fairly I think...

"Also, his qualifying performances against Senna look more respectable than Prost's record against the Brazilain."

Prost was never a great qualifier...neither was Berger for that matter. I think a better relation would be the many drivers who have teamed up with Schumacher and played such a minimal role when it comes to challenging MS for wins.

Berger was able to challenge Senna and Mansell - and when he was not challenging, he was certainly competing for more points then most supporting teamates today - or that I can think of.


I think he should have stayed at Ferrari as well. Going to McLaren was a big mistake - then again, so was going back to Ferrari in 1993.

Sadly both he and Alesi wasted a ton of time at Ferrari and because so we missed out on what could have been some great races.

[Kpy]

Originally posted by aportinga
............. without a care - always scoping the babes and having a good time. Perhaps he was the last of such driver to have such an open character in what is now a very cold world.

Well - one could mention a certain Irishman, who I think still has a driver's job in F1 ;)

[BertlF]

Originally posted by jmp85


him and jean alesi driving jean todt's fiat to a fiorano test session. as they arrive in front of the pits, berger pulls the parking brake (again!) and the fiat rolls over and lands upside down in front of the mechanics and an unhappy jean todt!

cheers, jmp85

Sorry, mate, I don't want to be a penny-pincher, but it was J Todt's Lancia... Now could you imagine Berger and Alesi driving a Fiat if there was a nice Lancia available.....;)

J Todt was not present when the incident happened and only found out about the fate of his car when Berger told him that 'this car rolled over' (pointing at the remainings of the Lancia covered by a tarpaulin). J Todt lifted the cover and went berserk....

Bert

[mikedeering]

Christopher Hilton's book on Senna - "As Time Goes By" features a lot on his relationship with Berger.

It includes lots of details on some of the stories mentioned here about the pranks Senna & Berger got upto -those two had some crazy game of trying to out-trick each other.

I bleieve Lisa Dennis and Gerhard hired someone at the Australian GP to catch frogs, and the guy caught 23 or something. They put them in Senna's room, and of coure the Brazilian went beserk - screaming at Berger "I've spent the last hour catching 16 frogs etc" And Berger, deadpan, replied "You only found 16? What about the other 7"

Another time, at a test session at Magny Cours, Berger & Blundell found a statue and put it in Senna's hotel bed - of course he stumbled in later that night and screamed the place down, thinking a corpse was in his bed!

The passport story was even funnier - Senna was in first class, and the air hostess asked for his passport, telling him she would sort out the customs issues during the flight so he could leave the airpoirt straight away when the plane landed. So Senna gives her his passport, and off she goes to clear it with customs. She comes back a while later, looking sheepish, and gives Senna his passprt back, saying "Mr Senna, the customs man does not believe it is you." The photo was of a large topless woman, courtesy of Berger!

I will check the book out again, because there are lots more stories like this.

[byrkus]

So we can truly call Berger as 'the last REAL racing driver'...

[OssieFan]

I recently read Christopher Hamilton's book on Gerhard and it was great. I remember another incident, I think it may have been with him and another driver (when he started racing touring cars) when they were staying in a hotel. Gerhard threw the guys things out of the hotel window into a pool below. I'm pretty sure the guy got back at him although I can't remember the full story!

[HistoryFan]

Which three European Formula Three races won Gerhard Berger in 1984? And who was 2nd?

[Vitesse2]

Two, not three ...

http://www.teamdan.c...3/84eurof3.html

[Formula Once]

Berger was a late starter I believe and did not make much of an impression in European Formula 3. Not any more than the likes of John Nielsen or Claudio Langes anyway, to name but a few. It is no secret that his friendship with many key people at BMW helped getting him into F1 with ATS (-BMW) at the end of 1984 and then Arrows (-BMW) for 1985 (a seat after which fellow Austrian Jo Gartner was after, too). Gerhard was lucky to surive a serious road car accident that winter, came back, but I don't think that performance wise he made much of an impression on his (more experienced) team mate Boutsen that year. He was part of the deal between Toleman (Benetton) and BMW for 1986 and although team mate Teo Fabi was at least as impressive, it was the extrovert Gerhard who got everyone talking and who took the team's first win making optimum use of his Pirelli tires which allowed a clever race strategy. There is no doubt that this 1200+ bhp era suited Berger and his balls, and that Benetton had produced a good little car, BMW a hell of engine and Pirelli, on its day, tyres that could make a difference. In general, however, I think the only difference between Fabi and Berger that year, was that the latter had a much better way with people (team, BMW, sponsors, media), made them laugh, looked good and had this buzz around him. It got him a Ferrari drive at a time the Italians needed to replace at least one driver after a dreadful season. 1987 probably was Berger's best year, as he outclassed Alboreto on pure speed and by the end of the year won a couple of races. The might of McLaren made it hard to judge Berger's or Ferrari performance in 1988, but the year after Nigel Mansell certainly put the Berger-hype into perspective. After he joined McLaren, it was clear pretty quickly that Berger maybe was a liitle less gifted after all, as he was nowhere near Senna most of the time and was the first to admit it. So, the sum things up: one of the nicest drivers of his time, impressive on a flying lap with 1400-something bhp and sticky tyres, but no Senna or Prost. Or even Mansell for that matter.

[Paolo]

I agree with Formula Once. Berger got simply trashed by Senna. Something that never happened to Prost or Mansell. He was a good driver, period.
He looked good when pitted against a fading Alboreto at Ferrari; at the time probably nobody realized how fast Michele's once immense talent had declined.
I personally find his idea of "humour" as here reported way too unrefined, but it is my taste.
My nicest memory of him is his last, unexpected victory with Benetton, a real lion's last roar.

[kayemod]

Not much to disagree with here, though I have to say that Gerhard's idea of 'humour' would be pretty much lost on me, throwing a briefcase out of a helicopter isn't exactly Jaques Tati is it? Has anyone mentioned his final win at Hockenheim in what appeared in most respects to be pretty much a 'coast and collect' year for him and Alesi in the Benettons? I was talking some time later to one of the Benetton techies, and he told me that although they were getting a bit disenchanted by the less than dramatic performance of their two drivers in 97, they were all very impressed at the the way Gerhard hit the brakes as he entered the stadium section, which they reckoned was what won him the race. He was super hard on the brakes and metre perfect on every single lap, just about the most consistent thing they'd ever seen on the telemetry. The Benetton guy told me that he'd never seen anything to match it, even when Schumacher was driving for them.

[ghinzani]

As stated previously it was very touch and go for the Arrows seat in 85 - the broken neck was one aspect but also Jo Gartner was at the time just as good a choice based on results and potential (I would have given Jo the nod, but I think his sponsor clashed with Barclay??). Its an interesting "what if" had Jo got the seat for 86 and looked as impressive against Boutsen. In fact Boutsens an interesting discussion too as hes a man who stayed with Arrows one year too long, should have ditched his contract at the end of 85 - surprised he didnt as Ortwin Podlech was his manager and was very astute for Rosberg.

[fines]

Tick one more box for those not overwhelmed by Berger's sense of humour, in fact I found him quite moronic! As for the Berger-Gartner "match" for the Arrows seat, I recall it very well: it was very clear from the beginning that BMW wanted Berger at all costs. Why? Beats me! Gartner would've been the obvious choice, with lots of experience and talent, and given what Berger achieved one has to wonder what Jo might have been able to!

I also recall all the rave reviews Berger got in his days, especially in the German speaking press - even at the time, I wondered about their judgement! As has been correctly pointed out here, the only team mate Berger consistently beat was Alboreto, and one has to wonder if that had to do with Ferrari politics more than anything else...

[Formula Once]

BMW wanted Berger at all costs. Why?

They really could do with a German-speaking driver at the time, and Gerhard was pretty much in with anyone that had anything to say at BMW, and was often seen mingling (and skiing) with them and many other F1 boys who used to spent the winter on the slopes of his native Tirol, including Nelson Piquet for example. In fact, did you know Bernie Ecclestone advised Spirit to take on Gerhard to replace Baldi halfway through 1984?

[fines]

No, I didn't know that. A case for the "almost-moves" thread?

So, Berger's was more of a casting couch arrangement, was it?

[Formula Once]

If you would explain what that means, I'll tell you!

[fines]

As in licking it up to the rich and powerful, like starlets do to movie producers on the couch with no clothes on, in order to get casted for the female lead.

[kayemod]

Originally posted by fines
As in licking it up to the rich and powerful, like starlets do to movie producers on the couch with no clothes on, in order to get casted for the female lead.

In Gerhard's case, what you seem to be suggesting, leaves a rather nasty taste in the mouth.

[fines]

Ugh! Perhaps I should have added "figuratively"...;)

[Formula Once]

Haha.

Well, I don't think it was like that. I think things just happened as they happened in Gerhard's case (and in many other cases). Its just human nature to hook up with nice people. So if BMW was going to support anyone, why not a nice guy they knew well and got along just fine with? Being nice is something diiferent than acting nice and I believe that he was/is a genuinely nice guy, so there probably wasn't a lot of licking involved.

[Formula Once]

Also, just how crucial BMW's help in 1985 must have been, is underlined by the fact that I can't remember Berger bringing sponsorship to the teamn that year, while Gartner certainly would have been able to (and Arrows certainly would have welcomed).

[HistoryFan]

Originally posted by kayemod
Not much to disagree with here, though I have to say that Gerhard's idea of 'humour' would be pretty much lost on me, throwing a briefcase out of a helicopter isn't exactly Jaques Tati is it? Has anyone mentioned his final win at Hockenheim in what appeared in most respects to be pretty much a 'coast and collect' year for him and Alesi in the Benettons? I was talking some time later to one of the Benetton techies, and he told me that although they were getting a bit disenchanted by the less than dramatic performance of their two drivers in 97, they were all very impressed at the the way Gerhard hit the brakes as he entered the stadium section, which they reckoned was what won him the race. He was super hard on the brakes and metre perfect on every single lap, just about the most consistent thing they'd ever seen on the telemetry. The Benetton guy told me that he'd never seen anything to match it, even when Schumacher was driving for them.

Who was that Benetton guy?

[sterling49]

Originally posted by HistoryFan


Who was that Benetton guy?

Johnny Herb......sorry,S.S... Sch........ I can't say it!

[RStock]

Originally posted by BertlF


One thing I was always missing with him was the pure determination to make it to the top. Unlike Stewart, Lauda, Senna, Schumacher (just to mention a few) he seemed not so determined and willing to focus everything to success in F1. 'Good life', girls, jokes and pranks (has anybody heard the episode where he threw out Senna's ultra-expensive briefcase with the freshly signed McLaren contract out of the helicopter?) were always important for him and maybe this contributed for him not to achieve the ultimate goal, winning a WDC. Also his choice of team seemed not to be always the best, maybe driven more by monetary reasons that success orientated.


Bert

This pretty much sums up my opinion of Berger . I've always rated him as one of the biggest under-achievers in F-1 . He had the talent , but lacked the fire inside . Regardless of what one thinks of his sense of humor , I've often heard it credited with helping Senna's attitude to "lighten up" .

I have this photo that I found awhile back with no explanation , but I've always felt Berger was somehow behind it .

[HistoryFan]

But he wasn't a techies, wasn't he?

[Jerome]

Well, Gerhard Berger is a bit like Tim Henman, in a way. You could ask: 'Why hasn't Tim Henman ever won Wimbledon?' Or you can ask the question: 'How can a player with a so-so serve and lacking in power from the baseline have reached so many Wimbledon Semi's and soforth?'

Don't forget, Gerhard Berger got into F1 pretty much on a wildcard, as another poster once elegantly phrased it. He did not have fantastic results in lower formula, before he debuted in F1 I had never heard from him, and that said something in that period (when I read almost EVERYTHING on F1).

But there he was, driving that crap ATS F1 car, in a one-off race in Hockenheim, that never achieved any points before. And he came in 6th in his first Grand Prix.

Berger made the most of his talents, believe me. That he took the fight to Senna, and became friends with him, is a measure for how well he did.

[Formula Once]

Berger made his debut at Zeltweg, not Hockenheim, and finished 6th at Monza, his second race (he did not race at Zandvoort) although he was never given the point as ATS had not entered a second car at the start of the season. By the way, Gartner was 5th at Monza in an Osella (and also was not given the points for the same reason).

[Twin Window]

Plus Lauda's win at Monza 1984 represents the best-ever GP result - points or not - for Austria with a 1-5-6.

[Formula Once]

Makes you think... It's funny in a way that a small country like Austria produced so many Grand Prix drivers since 1970. Also intruiging, almost scary, is that so many of them had such bad, often fatal accidents: Rindt, Koinnig, Lauda, Gartner, Berger, Ratzenberger, Wendlinger... And the of course Markus Hottinger in F2.

[kayemod]

Originally posted by Jerome
Well, Gerhard Berger is a bit like Tim Henman, in a way. You could ask: 'Why hasn't Tim Henman ever won Wimbledon?' Or you can ask the question: 'How can a player with a so-so serve and lacking in power from the baseline have reached so many Wimbledon Semi's and soforth?'

"Come on Tim !!!"

[subh]

Originally posted by kayemod
Not much to disagree with here, though I have to say that Gerhard's idea of 'humour' would be pretty much lost on me, throwing a briefcase out of a helicopter isn't exactly Jaques Tati is it? Has anyone mentioned his final win at Hockenheim in what appeared in most respects to be pretty much a 'coast and collect' year for him and Alesi in the Benettons? I was talking some time later to one of the Benetton techies, and he told me that although they were getting a bit disenchanted by the less than dramatic performance of their two drivers in 97, they were all very impressed at the the way Gerhard hit the brakes as he entered the stadium section, which they reckoned was what won him the race. He was super hard on the brakes and metre perfect on every single lap, just about the most consistent thing they'd ever seen on the telemetry. The Benetton guy told me that he'd never seen anything to match it, even when Schumacher was driving for them.

This might also apply to Hockenheim 1996, as I remember he should have won that one.

[man]

Mansell put Berger's hype into perspective?

I would say it was the other way round.

Mansell got the lion's share of reliability in 1989, yet despite Berger's crash and the fact that he signed for McLaren around the time of the British GP, he was more of a match for Mansell in terms of speed in races and qualifying right until the end of the season.

The difference between Berger and the likes of Senna, Prost and even Nige was that racing and winning were not the be and end all. He seemed to be a far more balanced personality and therefore would have his off days due to partying until just a few hours before the Sunday warm-up. If he had the dedication to motor racing the other three had, he would have been a lot more successful. They may have their names down in the history books, but Gerhard made as much dough, lasted just as long, probably screwed a lot more women had much more fun to go with it. I'm certain Gerhard doesn't regret a thing

[COUGAR508]

I was always a big admirer of Gerhard. Reading the biography by Christopher Hilton, it seems that he almost stumbled into F1 by accident, as he had a potential parallel career in touring cars. When he did get his F1 chance, however, he made the most of it.

I would also agree with what some of the others have said, to the effect that Gerhard was one of the last true "racers", who genuinely loved what he did, and was not ashamed to admit some of his motivations.

[Der Pate]

Originally posted by Formula Once
Berger made his debut at Zeltweg, not Hockenheim, and finished 6th at Monza, his second race (he did not race at Zandvoort) although he was never given the point as ATS had not entered a second car at the start of the season. By the way, Gartner was 5th at Monza in an Osella (and also was not given the points for the same reason).

As far as I remember the first lap of Zeltweg 1984 was a bit crazy...Berger spun in one of the first corners...but managed to loose no places...

[Arjan de Roos]

Two great reads on Gerhard are:

Grenzbereich (Orac Vedrlag) (Within the limit)

Zielgerade (Heel) (Finish straight)

Unfortunately only in German (correction: Tirolisch), the first depicts his early life, first Benetton and Ferrari round. The latter is on his second time round Benetton and Ferrari as well as his life around that period. Of course many stories can be found in both. For instance his participation in the 24 hours of Spa and simultaneously participating in a F1 test at Zandvoort. "Calling Joe Saward"

[RaceCarToons]

I am also a big fan of Gerhards', he came to my attention in 1986 with if his performances that year in the Benetton BMW. With the year finishing with his first win in Mexico, I thought he is destined for bigger things, and followed is career from then on.

I did find out more about his early carear before F1 with Alfa's, F3, Euro F3, Macau etc even his, as far as I can remember, only endurance car outing in a Jagermeister sponsored, Brun Porsche 956 at Hockenheim. It has been interesting reading through this thread.

However surprised there are not any pictures of Gerhards' early pre F1 racing. Does any one out there have any images of him tucked away that they are willing to share with us Berger fans. I recal trying to create a RaceCarToon history of the cars he raced but could not find acurate enough images to complete it, here is hoping some one has some pictures.

[bathceltic]

Lovely character but because of that some ape like driving was ignored by most observers, eg hungaroring 1990, Monaco 1990, Alesi pulled a great move on Prost into Mirabeau and Berger went into gap that had closed a long long time ago causing a red flag. Mexico 1990 when his blocking of Mansell was gorilla like and suzuka 1996 when he rammed hill at the chicane, luckily for Hill he survived the contact. There were quite a few others where i thought he does this a lot yet it goes largely ignored by Murray, James, Nigel and Alan (Henry) my main sources of F1 comment in the 80's and early 90's. I suppose if you are quick, reasonably successful, a lovely bloke people give you the benefit of the doubt. Nigel Roebuck who I grew up loving reading would one week slate poor driving from the usual suspects then laud gerhard for his attitude the next week. It used to wind me up a little but even then i thought, 'well if he is giving you good interviews and proving a laugh you are going to extenuate the positive and ignore the odd negative'.

Edited by bathceltic, 09 June 2011 - 19:28.

[DogEarred]

Two, not three ...

http://www.teamdan.c...3/84eurof3.html

I was at the meeting at Zolder and although I could not quote you who won I do remember the fact that this guy was keeping up well with good drivers & wished him success.
I should have had a career as a talent spotter...