33 replies to this topic

[pRy]

This doens't sound too good :

Carlos Sainz has hit some spectators in an accident on SS11 of the Network Q Rally of Great Britain, causing the stage to be stopped. The Spaniard, who is running fourth in the event, ran off the road 13kms into the Brechfa run. It appears a spectator has been injured, but as yet, there are no details of the incident.

[Shiftin]

That's bad. But watching onboard shots in rally this doesn't surprise me. It has happened a lot of times before and will happen a lot of times again. IMHO opinion people are much to close to the action. It all looks spectacular but it's asking for trouble.....

[pRy]

I dunno, usually the GB rally is more safer. I mean sure, some rallys have people hanging on the edge of the road, but the GB Rally has some safety policys. They usually ensure all spectators are behind a certain line and have marshals to oversee this.

[pRy]

The Ford Focus of two-time world champion Carlos Sainz went off the road into a spectator area during the 11th special stage in the Brechfa Forest in south Wales.

Ambulances have been called to the scene and organisers have stopped the stage and cancelled the next one which was also scheduled for the forest area.

BBC Radio Wales reported that five people have been injured, although none of them are thought to be seriously hurt.

[Shiftin]

That's good! I mean the safety. But I was talking about rally in general. It's not that I really follow rally but in case I watch it I am always amazed about the spectators being so close. IMO there should be sections where people are allowed to watch the rally. It's just to dangerous this way. But as long as people keep seeking the thrill of standing so close to cars driving those speeds...I can't help myself thinking: "You're asking for it"

[zepp]

I heard just that 15 people are injured there, 3 more seriously. Not good news. And the rest stages of this day are cancelled.

[Shiftin]

I heard the same, 15 injured...bad news:(

[SB]

A sad incident

Autosport said Sainz has withdrawn from the race although he did completed that stage.

SB

[pRy]

Looks like the more serious ones may also be children

[Rob G]

Wow. That's terrible news.

It never ceases to amaze me how spectators put themselves in dangerous positions. I'm surprised that there haven't been more fatalities over the years.

[molive]

People who stand by the road-side watching Rallye choose thei own luck (or are really dumb). I'd only regret if any kids were involved because they can't judge the danger, adults can.

[stevew]

12 injured according to Autosport:

http://www.autosport...=17331&series=8

[HSJ]

This was supposed to be one of the best rallies ever. Instead it essentially folded as soon as Tommi and Colin DNFed and now a tragedy with 3rd WDC contender.

[KenC]

World Rally is amazing! It sure sounds like the spectators were in a designated spectator area. On the other hand, it also sounds like this area was on the outside of a corner?!? I always stand on the inside of a corner, preferably up on a hill to minimize the risk and maximize the view.

[FordPrefect]

Safety is a joke in this series, all you have to do is watch where the spectators stand and have an extremely basic idea of physics to see why.

It's a shame because a lot of people, myself included feel that the winner of this series is the real "World Driving Champion".

Rally of Great Britain officials insist the event is "well marshalled" despite a crash which left 12 spectators needing hospital treatment.
Carlos Sainz veered off the road and into a spectator area on the 11th stage in south Wales on Saturday.

The accident happened in Brechfa Forest, near Carmarthen, in foggy conditions.

Organisers say safety precautions were in place.

Spokesman David Richards said: "This rally has very clear rules over the number of people allowed onto the stages.

"They are very well marshalled at every junction and every corner.

"You will get these extraordinary accidents that you just don't anticipate."

The incident is the latest in a series of rally crashes around the world over the last two years:


July 2001: A family of four were killed when a competitor lost control of his car during the RallyLana race near Turin, Italy.

April 2001: Two people died and three others were injured when a car hit a group of spectators at a rally in Jerez de los Caballeros near Badajoz, Spain.

September 2000: Five people, including a child, were killed and eight others injured when a driver lost control of his car in a rally in Burgundy, France. The driver died after hitting a pylon which collapsed on to spectators.

May 2000: Two people were killed and a third was injured when they were hit by Russian Sergei Uspenkski's car during the Bulgarian Albena rally.

February 2000: An 11-year-old boy was killed and five people were hurt when a car crashed into spectators at a motor rally in Northumberland, north-east England.

October 1999: Three spectators died and three were seriously injured when a car ploughed into onlookers during a rally in the Corte area of central Corsica.
The sport's governing body, the FIA, has launched an inquiry into the latest accident, at the Rally of Great Britain.

Organisers have released a telephone number for anyone who wants to check on family or friends who might have been in the Brechfa forest area. It is 01267 232 000.

And police in Carmarthen have issued three new telephone numbers for concerned family and friends to call. They are: (01267) 226112, 226114 and 226115.

[Dudley]

Although why the hell they forced Mark Higgins out I don't know.

I think he was possibly doing a little too well.

[jk]

Saw some pictures of the crashsite on Eurosport. It didn't look any more dangoureos than other corners, but in every rally turn, if you outbrake youself (on ****up your braking) you will just drive straight into the spectators.
Sainz and the Ford Boss said on Eurosport that nobody was seriusly injured, so that is good news.

[Williams]

I had no idea spectator accident stats were so bad in rallying. It strikes me as totally irresponsible, or rather negligent, on the part of the sports governing body. It's unbelievable they get away with it.

[Todd]

Originally posted by Williams
I had no idea spectator accident stats were so bad in rallying. It strikes me as totally irresponsible, or rather negligent, on the part of the sports governing body. It's unbelievable they get away with it.

While it is sad that there are casualties of Rally specating, there is nobody putting a gun to people's heads and saying that they should stand inches away from where a car is being driven on the limit. Rallying is in some ways like open road racing, in that drivers are competing on real roads and in often unimproved conditions. Spectators are free to watch the events on TV if they won't accept their share of the risks. The roads ARE CLOSED, and the risks are well publicized. Why try to make the world risk free? It can't be done, and many of us are thrill seekers that will find a way to put ourselves in harms way no matter what.

[Pascal]

The issue of safety in rallying is a complex one, and my view of it may be biased because of my involvement in the organisation of the Monte-Carlo Rally. Nevertheless, I wish to address a few points that the mention of dry stats usually tend to conceal...

Rally is a popular and free show for motorsports fan. It is also one that leaves a lot of freedom regarding what people wish to see. When you go on a stage, it's usually a day trip that will have you drive to a near location, and then walk for a long while to get to the dream spot where you will either freeze your butt in the cold, or cook under the sun. In some cases, like the legendary Turini stage on the Monte-Carlo Rally, people will cover thousands of kilometres to camp on the nearby slopes and watch the cars go past a couple of times, that is when the stage is not cancelled for a reason or another. But the passion behind the fans doesn't change the fact that watching a car go flat out on a road barely wider than it is a hazardous activity, and it will always bring casualties one way or another.

Most rally organisers have several cars to open the road on the stages. In the case of the Monte-Carlo, three cars are sent in succession roughly 10 minutes apart to see if any problem could endanger the rally. That includes warning spectators that they may be standing in a dangerous spot, and subsequently ask them to leave. But since spectators are free to move even when the competitors are racing, you always run the risk of having the odd moron going back to a risky spot to take a picture of his idol, or people simply going through that spot in their haste to leave and go back to their car. It's a problem that has no solution, unless you have an army of marshals to enforce discipline on each stage. When you consider that some of them may be 30 kms long, you can easily guess that it's not an answer...

Last year, the FIA got concerned about the risk those spectators were willing to take for themselves, and they sent a special representative in charge of safety to work alongside the Automobile Club de Monaco. And what did that guy do? He took off in a chopper, flew over a stage that was to start an hour later, and seeing all the people walking on the road to get to their spot, thought that the whole thing was madness. He went on to publicly issue a statement saying that the stage was too crowded, and left no choice to the ACM than to reluctantly cancel the stage! Let me get things straight, in my position of writing press releases, I had a team of journalists on the spot, and their report was that the stage was in no way more dangerous than any other that day. So here we are: shall we try to make rallying what it will never be, the equivalent of track races in terms of spectator safety? Or shall we decide that this thing is too dangerous anyway and ban it?

Though I am perfectly aware the notion of risk is a very unpopular one nowadays, I still believe we should let rallying as it is, but keep improving information given to spectators. Tragedies might still happen, but given the very nature of this kind of racing, stats are actually not bad at all, despite appearances...

[LB]

Its not free in Rally GB now actually

[Hellenic tifosi]

Todd and pascal are absolutely correct. The whole purpose of rallying is a FREE event that everyone can watch anyway he likes. The organisers have the responsibility to indicate the safe spots, so that the spectators watch the cars with minimal risk. Anyway, I think that any changes(more marshalls, better specator control) should be in this direction and not change the fundamental structure of rallying in any way.

[squiggle bob]

just looking over the article that FP posted.. there have been 18 deaths in the past two years at rally events.. its interesting that some serious changes haven't already been made.. and i agree with todd, pascal and hellenic tifosi and what they say.. you can't stop people from doing what they are doing presently without putting fences and marshalls around the track, and how are you going to do that around a rally circuit?!

all that can be done is what has already been mentioned, but as others have already said, you can't stop the thrill seekers from getting within dangerous limits of the cars and even though the drivers may not have accidents all the time, they do sometimes..

so sadly i think spectator deaths are always going to be an issue that rallying will face, unless the spectators can realise the great dangers they face.. i just hope the FIA are smart enough to realise that this is one sport that they can't introduce chicanes, grooved tyres, and gravel traps in to all in the name of safety..

[LB]

I wasn't kidding , iits not free to view the Rally GB , you have to buy a pass to get onto any stage...

[Williams]

Thanks Pascal for providing a good perspective on this issue. Rally driving is one of the purest forms of motor-racing, and I wouldn't want to seen anything threat it's essential nature. For that reason I hope that rally organizers know that safety is popular and that one day it will have to deal with that, or be forced to do so by public opinion. I hope that the organizers of rally driving are going to be proactive enough to deal with this issue on their own terms, before an event occurs that takes the iniative out of their hands and forces changes they don't want. At the very least I hope there is an ongoing and aggressive search for solutions to this problem.

[T4E]

Pascal:

All rallies aren't free nor in every rally you are free to go watch the cars where ever you want. For example here in the Neste Rally Finland there are strictly restricted areas for the spectators to watch the race. I believe it's the same situation in RAC.


T4E

[sennadog93]

First off - as others have said, there is no such thing as zero risk and those people who want to watch rallying have to accept that and take responsiblity for themselves and their children, not attempt to blame it on marshalling or the organisers.

I've been on stages in the past that have been cancelled due to irresponsible crowd behaviour, in terms of where peple were standing - it's obvious that the outside apex of a corner is not a good place to stand - not only is it unsafe but it's unfair to the drivers.

Having competed in various club events in a variety of cars it still amazes me the places people will stand - even the so called knowledgeable ones. I've paid out a fortune to rally, so why should I also have to worry about whether people are standing in a stupid place around the next bend? I notice no-one has said anything about Carlos Sainz - how must the guy be feeling right now? Pretty gutted I'd say and all because some arseholes had to get too close to the stage.

Lastly, every motorsport event that I have ever attended says something like "Motorsport can be dangerous....etc" - if you can't understand that and act appropriately then take the consequences and stop whingeing.

[LMG]

Funny isn’t it, everyone is talking about how much guts it takes to race on ovals. Watching the inboard WRC shots, I have to say that rally must by far be the most scary form of racing. There are people absolutely everywhere next to the road, and sometimes on it, like in Portugal.

[schuy]

Originally posted by Shiftin
That's bad. But watching onboard shots in rally this doesn't surprise me. It has happened a lot of times before and will happen a lot of times again. IMHO opinion people are much to close to the action. It all looks spectacular but it's asking for trouble.....

yeah, that's right Shiftin.
one of the reasons, i haven't put that much emphasis, on rallying for me.

Ciao,
Liran Biderman.

[Dudley]

Williams - I haven't been to the RAC in 10 years, but I just dragged out my old program and it devotes an entire page to diagrams of every time of corner and indications on where it's safe to be.

Frankly I have no sympathy for any adult that stands in the red areas, having seen Sainz's crash anyone standing in an indicated safe spot would have been just that.

[Force Ten]

Originally posted by LMG
Funny isn’t it, everyone is talking about how much guts it takes to race on ovals. Watching the inboard WRC shots, I have to say that rally must by far be the most scary form of racing. There are people absolutely everywhere next to the road, and sometimes on it, like in Portugal.

The Portugal dudes are absolute lunatics. Mostly during the stage they just stand there on the road the car is about to drive, like 200 of them trying to occupy the same spot, then a cloud of smoke and within that the car arrives... The dudes still stand there like thinking "of, he is 100 metres away, there's still time", the car comes closer and closer, they still stand there. Just when you think that the car is going to kill about 50 or so people, they move away just barely to let the car through and then go back and fill the road again. Looking at that makes me wonder that there are only 18 people killed in the rally events... What if somehing breaks at the time the driver is just about to drive through the crowd? What if the driver simply makes a mistake? It can happen...

[Peter]

Anyone who follws World Rallying and all the drivers will tell you that the spectators take stupid risks, just like they probably would in F1 if there weren't fences to keep them away!

If you have ever watched the in-car shots of drivers literally having to aim their cars at spectators who are standing IN THE TRACK as cars approach, just for that extra camera shot or better view. Although the British round is very well marshalled and safer than some of the others in the series, it is obvious that the cars aro on the limit (and sometime over it) and it does not take a mechanical emgineer to figure out that cars go off the track, not always in a direct line.

Fortunately, no-one was badly injured and the last two should be out of hospital today. Unfortunately, the BBC only showed the briefest of (amateur) clips of the Saintz accident so it is hard to see exactly what happened, but it appeare to me that he went off on the OUTSIDE of a corner, as you might expect. What were the spectators (and a car?) doing there?

It is a great shame because it caused two stages to be cancelled - meaning that fans who had trekked into stage 12 to watch waited in vain. It also could have had an influence on the outcome of the rally.

Don't get me wrong, I am very sorry that anyone got injured, but we all know, when we go into stages as spectators, that we are risking our own lives.

It is OUR responsibility not to cause incidents that taint the whole rally scene. I can remember years ago when stages were cancelled due to irresponsible spectators and that is just stupid.


Anyway, congratulations to Richard Burns who drove excellently (and congratulations to his Scottish co-driver who proved Colin McRae wrong - it was NOT England v Scotland for the title, but may the best British team win!)

[FredF1]

From what I saw of the clip on the news, there were people standing on the outside of a 90 degree bend and in front of a marshal's car.
Doesn't make sense that they were allowed to stand there. Especially as other cars had already gone through the corner, so the danger must have been obvious.

I was watching the coverage over the weekend and there was a scene where the marshals were blowing their whistles, yet there was this moron standing on the edge of the road, walking slowly along with his back to the oncoming traffic! He just side-stepped into the ditch as the car was coming round the bend behind him.


Unbelievable.

[Hellenic tifosi]

Originally posted by FredF1
I was watching the coverage over the weekend and there was a scene where the marshals were blowing their whistles, yet there was this moron standing on the edge of the road, walking slowly along with his back to the oncoming traffic! He just side-stepped into the ditch as the car was coming round the bend behind him.

We have the same problem here in the Acropolis rally, although things are much better now than they were 3 years ago. In order to help in solving the problem, a Greek automotive magazine will offer a sling for free in it's June edition, so that you can use it against any fool who will spoil your fun! Seriously, I wouldn't want to be in my best friends' position who woke up early in the morning and made a 3 hour trip to the Elatia stage(by far the best in our rally), only to find out that in was cancelled due to the stupidity of some spectators!