51 replies to this topic

[magic]

ms
1984   German Kart Jr Champion 
1985   German Kart Jr Champion, World Championship runner-up 
1986   German Kart Championship, 3rd, European Championship, 3rd 
1987   Kart European and German Champion 

mh
1986   Karting, five times Finnish Champion 

dc
1988   Karting - three times Scottish Champion, twice winner of the Scottish Open Championship and British Super 1 Championship (Junior),winner of the Scottish Open Championship (Senior) 

rs
1991   Winner of the NRW Cup
Winner of the Gold Cup
German Junior Karting Champion 
1992   Drove his first ADAC BMW Junior race in which he finished second 
Runner-up in the German Karting

jt
1983   Mini Kart 
1987   Winner Gold Medal "Youth Games" 100 cadet class 
1988   Winner Italian Go-Kart Championship 100 National class 
1989   Winner Italian Go-Kart Championship 100 National class 
1990   Winner Italian Go-kart Championship 100 National Class
Winner Grand Prix of Hong Kong Class 100 FA 
1991   Winner World Go-kart Championship class 100 FK 
1992   World Go-kart Championship lass 125FC, 2nd 
1993   World Go-kart Champion class 100 SA 2nd
Winner Grand Prix of Japan Class 100 FSA 
1994   Winner World Cup "Memorial Ayrton Senna" class 100 FSA
Winner European Go-kart Championship class 100 FSA
Winner North America Go-kart Championship class 100 FSA
Winner World Go-kart Championship class 125FC 
1995   Winner Grand Prix of Australia 100 FSA
Winner Italian Go-kart Championship class 100 FA
Winner World Cup "Memorial Ayrton Senna" class 100 FSA 

[Smooth]

To bad he isn't still driving a kart. He is a mid-fielder on Sundays, with race-craft only a step above Damon Hill. He is brilliant on Saturday, pretty often. Too bad that doesn't count for much.

[fifi]

means bugger all, Trulli is in a team which has no chance of winning WDC for the next few years, chances are by the time they may be in a position to, he will have retired

[ludlum]

What is the point of this thread ?:

[cavedog]

Originally posted by Smooth
To bad he isn't still driving a kart. He is a mid-fielder on Sundays, with race-craft only a step above Damon Hill. He is brilliant on Saturday, pretty often. Too bad that doesn't count for much.

Yeah...now Damon Hill is everybody's No #1 bitch!

[HSJ]

Originally posted by ludlum
What is the point of this thread ?:

Beats me. Personally I find karting not such a great indicator of future success, except in most general terms. I mean AS didn't become karting WDC, neither did most other F1 WDCs, so I don't know... Though I don't mean that a guy who sucks at karting is going to be good in cars, by no means.

[ludlum]

Originally posted by cavedog


Yeah...now Damon Hill is everybody's No #1 bitch!

Do u mean to say ONLY NOW ?

[magic]

off season quiz for ludlum:
spot the 4xwdc:

-----


Unofficial heat and main results for the FIA/CIK Karting World Championship race at Kerpen, Germany on October 28, 2001.

Qualifying Heat, Groups B-C
Pos Nr. Driver Team Nat. Laps Gap Next Best Lap
1 41 Engels, Alexandre Swiss Hutless Karting BEL 14   59.686
2 9 Cesetti, Sauro Kosmic Racing Dept. ITA 14 3.607 59.147
3 39 Van der Garde, Giedo CRG Holland NED 14 0.212 59.525
4 35 Benjamini Team Koene NED 14 0.333 59.222
5 22 Spinozzi, Marino Haase Racing Team ITA 14 7.745 01:00.1
6 37 Burton, Caren Maréchal Motorsport BEL 14 1.935 01:00.4
7 1 Fore, Davide Tony Kart Racing Team ITA 14 0.819 01:00.5
8 32 Umegaki, Hiroshi Birel Spa JPN 14 0.202 59.924
9 16 Rosberg, Nico team mbm.com FIN 14 0.348 01:00.2
10 21 Jensen, Martin Haase Racing Team DEN 14 1.253 59.998
11 40 Bakkerud, Christian CRG Holland DEN 14 0.516 59.907
12 10 Duval, Loïc Kosmic Racing Dept. FRA 14 0.338 59.569
13 2 Perera, Franck Tony Kart Racing Team FRA 14 1.474 59.709
14 36 Bakker, Randy Team Koene NED 14 0.244 59.239
15 28 Gélinas, Philippe Maranello Kart CDN 14 1.123 01:00.0
16 45 Palmieri, Giuseppe Italcorse ITA 14 2.301 01:00.7
17 4 Bonetti, Alessandro Birel Motorsport ITA 14 3.157 01:00.7
18 44 Fokin, Jani GP Racing FIN 14 4.98 01:00.9
19 27 Gandolfi, Ennio Maranello Kart ITA 14 5.377 01:01.9
20 6 Götz, Maximilian Swiss Hutless Internat. GER 14 4.409 01:01.5
21 5 Manetti, Alessandro Swiss Hutless Internat. ITA 14 0.771 01:00.8
22 20 Horstman, Benjamin Biesse Kart Srl AUS 14 1.245 01:01.3
23 24 Groppi, Laurent PCR FRA 14 0.175 59.6
24 43 Cavaciuti, Gianpiero GP Racing ITA 14 1.284 01:01.5
25 19 Rogenmoser, Benjamin Biesse Kart Srl JPN 13 -1 R 01:01.8
26 15 Hamilton, Lewis team mbm.com GBR 10 -3 R 01:00.3
27 12 Fabi, Stefano Comer ITA 8 -2 R 01:01.7
28 3 Beggio, Gianluca Birel Motorsport ITA -    
               
Qualifying Heat, Groups A-C
Pos Nr. Driver Team Nat. Laps Gap Next Best Lap
1 3 Beggio, Gianluca Birel Motorsport ITA 14   59.606
2 36 Bakker, Randy Team Koene NED 14 1.294 59.073
3 31 Ardigo, Marco Birel Spa ITA 14 0.072 59.557
4 2 Perera, Franck Tony Kart Racing Team FRA 14 0.058 59.231
5 7 Liuzzi, Vitantonio CRG ITA 14 0.972 59.651
6 42 Orsini, Massimiliano Swiss Hutless Karting ITA 14 10.709 01:00.5
7 45 Palmieri, Giuseppe Italcorse ITA 14 0.669 01:00.3
8 29 Asmer, Marko Tony Kart Srl EST 14 2.695 01:00.3
9 34 Bressaglia, Darren Swiss Hultess Comp. LUX 14 0.251 59.88
10 28 Gélinas, Philippe Maranello Kart CDN 14 0.006 01:00.4
11 16 Rosberg, Nico team mbm.com FIN 14 0.108 59.339
12 21 Jensen, Martin Haase Racing Team DEN 14 0.861 59.831
13 38 Canal, Julien Maréchal Motorsport FRA 14 0.324 59.924
14 33 Poncelet, Julien Swiss Hutless Comp. FRA 14 2.821 01:00.5
15 30 Schumacher, Michael Tony Kart Srl GER 14 0.56 59.613
16 43 Cavaciuti, Gianpiero GP Racing ITA 14 11.918 01:01.4
17 26 Short, Simon SWRD GBR 14 1.073 01:01.8
18 12 Fabi, Stefano Comer ITA 14 2.36 01:01.7
19 25 Wright, James SWRD GBR 14 12.217 01:00.9
20 23 Balistreri, Cesare PCR ITA 13 -1 R 01:00.8
21 11 Spencer, Michael Comer AUS 12 -1 R 59.903
22 41 Engels, Alexandre Swiss Hutless Karting BEL 10 -2 R 59.524
23 44 Fokin, Jani GP Racing FIN 8 -2 R 59.985
24 46 Picchianti, Yuri Italcorse ITA 7 -1 R 01:03.6
25 4 Bonetti, Alessandro Birel Motorsport ITA 6 -1 R 01:02.7
26 1 Fore, Davide Tony Kart Racing Team ITA 5 -1 R 01:01.1
27 8 Vilander, Toni CRG FIN 5 0.295 01:00.5
28 39 Van der Garde, Giedo CRG Holland NED 2 -3 R 59.872
               
World Championship Race 1
Pos Nr. Driver Team Nat. Laps Gap Next Best Lap
1 9 Cesetti, Sauro Kosmic Racing Dept. ITA 23   56.771
2 31 Ardigo, Marco Birel Spa ITA 23 2.507 57.099
3 2 Perera, Franck Tony Kart Racing Team FRA 23 1.27 56.472
4 7 Liuzzi, Vitantonio CRG ITA 23 6.723 57.387
5 16 Rosberg, Nico team mbm.com FIN 23 0.115 56.877
6 32 Umegaki, Hiroshi Birel Spa JPN 23 1.183 57.066
7 15 Hamilton, Lewis team mbm.com GBR 23 9.672 56.906
8 34 Bressaglia, Darren Swiss Hultess Comp. LUX 23 3.002 57.353
9 39 Van der Garde, Giedo CRG Holland NED 23 2.497 57.103
10 10 Duval, Loïc Kosmic Racing Dept. FRA 23 5.398 57.509
11 41 Engels, Alexandre Swiss Hutless Karting BEL 23 0.325 57.525
12 42 Orsini, Massimiliano Swiss Hutless Karting ITA 23 0.44 57.757
13 40 Bakkerud, Christian CRG Holland DEN 23 0.146 57.693
14 21 Jensen, Martin Haase Racing Team DEN 23 1.581 57.305
15 37 Burton, Caren Maréchal Motorsport BEL 23 0.797 57.154
16 36 Bakker, Randy Team Koene NED 23 0.361 57.113
17 35 Benjamini Team Koene NED 23 1.755 57.321
18 5 Manetti, Alessandro Swiss Hutless Internat. ITA 23 2.657 57.409
19 3 Beggio, Gianluca Birel Motorsport ITA 23 7.436 57.483
20 6 Götz, Maximilian Swiss Hutless Internat. GER 23 5.006 58.126
21 29 Asmer, Marko Tony Kart Srl EST 18 -5 R 56.484
22 20 Horstman, Benjamin Biesse Kart Srl AUS 18 38.078 59.472
23 11 Spencer, Michael Comer AUS 16 -2 R 58.262
24 44 Fokin, Jani GP Racing FIN 16 27.158 57.785
25 30 Schumacher, Michael Tony Kart Srl GER 15 -1 R 57.189
26 33 Poncelet, Julien Swiss Hutless Comp. FRA 12 -3 R 58.415
27 22 Spinozzi, Marino Haase Racing Team ITA 11 -1 R 59.115
28 4 Bonetti, Alessandro Birel Motorsport ITA 10 -1 R 59.181
29 24 Groppi, Laurent PCR FRA 7 -3 R 59.442
30 28 Gélinas, Philippe Maranello Kart CDN 7 0.299 59.797
31 38 Canal, Julien Maréchal Motorsport FRA 4 -3 R 59.582
32 23 Balistreri, Cesare PCR ITA 3 -1 R 01:02.2
33 45 Palmieri, Giuseppe Italcorse ITA 1 -2 R 01:04.8
               
World Championship Race 2
Pos Nr. Driver Team Nat. Laps Gap Next Best Lap
1 31 Ardigo, Marco Birel Spa ITA 23   56.297
2 9 Cesetti, Sauro Kosmic Racing Dept. ITA 23 0.739 56.28
3 30 Schumacher, Michael Tony Kart Srl GER 23 4.6 56.365
4 16 Rosberg, Nico team mbm.com FIN 23 0.919 56.287
5 29 Asmer, Marko Tony Kart Srl EST 23 1.457 56.304
6 32 Umegaki, Hiroshi Birel Spa JPN 23 2.014 56.171
7 37 Burton, Caren Maréchal Motorsport BEL 23 5.84 56.612
8 15 Hamilton, Lewis team mbm.com GBR 23 0.856 56.378
9 36 Bakker, Randy Team Koene NED 23 3.527 56.675
10 35 Benjamini Team Koene NED 23 4.161 56.954
11 10 Duval, Loïc Kosmic Racing Dept. FRA 23 4.419 57.178
12 22 Spinozzi, Marino Haase Racing Team ITA 23 0.588 56.866
13 20 Horstman, Benjamin Biesse Kart Srl AUS 23 0.856 57.147
14 34 Bressaglia, Darren Swiss Hultess Comp. LUX 23 2.714 57.186
15 42 Orsini, Massimiliano Swiss Hutless Karting ITA 23 0.479 57.227
16 1 Fore, Davide Tony Kart Racing Team ITA 23 0.82 56.987
17 28 Gélinas, Philippe Maranello Kart CDN 23 5.833 57.643
18 21 Jensen, Martin Haase Racing Team DEN 23 1.791 57.326
19 33 Poncelet, Julien Swiss Hutless Comp. FRA 23 15.457 58.217
20 11 Spencer, Michael Comer AUS 22 -1 R 57.121
21 2 Perera, Franck Tony Kart Racing Team FRA 20 -2 R 56.337
22 38 Canal, Julien Maréchal Motorsport FRA 15 -5 R 57.535
23 4 Bonetti, Alessandro Birel Motorsport ITA 15 11.331 58.122
24 40 Bakkerud, Christian CRG Holland DEN 14 -1 R 57.451
25 24 Groppi, Laurent PCR FRA 13 -1 R 57.412
26 41 Engels, Alexandre Swiss Hutless Karting BEL 10 -3 R 57.81
27 39 Van der Garde, Giedo CRG Holland NED 7 -3 R 58.244
28 44 Fokin, Jani GP Racing FIN 6 -1 R 58.565
29 7 Liuzzi, Vitantonio CRG ITA 2 -4 R 59.511
30 5 Manetti, Alessandro Swiss Hutless Internat. ITA 2 9.061 01:00.9
31 3 Beggio, Gianluca Birel Motorsport ITA 1 -1 R 01:02.5
32 23 Balistreri, Cesare PCR ITA 1 2.055 01:04.8
33 45 Palmieri, Giuseppe Italcorse ITA 1 0.808 01:06.4
34 6 Götz, Maximilian Swiss Hutless Internat. GER -    

 

[Viktor]

So the point of this thred is to show that Trulli was better in go carts when he was a full time go cart driver then Schumacher was when he did a one off race 13 years after he stoped racing go carts full time??

/Viktor

[ludlum]

I should have guessed.
So u are after good old Ms arent you ?

My god, u are a pyscho

Are u aware of all the things that happened before the karting thing and during the race.

Selective amnesia is not too bad and certainly can be cured magic. GO see a shrink

and yes senna is the greatest and MS is the worst:rolleyes:

[magic]

it's just another ms following senna's path thing

In 1977 Ayrton won the South American Kart Championship and repeated the following year. The goal for any aspiring karting driver was Europe and the World Championships at Le Mans. Against much stronger competition Ayrton managed to finish sixth overall which was considered sensational for a driver with his experience, but he came away disappointed in not winning any of the three races which constituted the final. In 1979 he returned to Europe for further seasoning and finishes second in the World Championships at Estoril. Nivelles in Belgium the following year saw another second.

guess who watched him there?

"He was my idol.
I was ten years old and I saw him racing karts,
and I thought 'Who’s that guy?
Being so fast,
driving in the way that he did,
overtaking in the way he did.'
I felt when I was ten, he’s something special."

senna always regretted not becoming karting wdc.

He went to Parma for three weeks testing before the championship before he met his DAP team-mates, Englishman, Terry Fullerton and Dutchman Peter Koene. Both were used to seeing young, rich South Americans trying to buy their way into the upper ranks only to fall at the first hurdle. They both instantly recognised Senna as being very fast. they also noted he was still immature, too keen to be the fastest at every possible moment. Senna sought their advice and they told him he was over driving his kart, his lurid slides were costing him too much speed. This was a watershed for Senna as he now began to hone his world beating driving style.
Senna at the World Karting Championship at Le Mans in 1978.
Click on photo to see an elagrged version in a new window.


In the early races at Le Mans he won two of the early heats, proving that he was not the typical young South American that the Europeans were accustomed to. Senna was finding that the competition was proving to be much harder than in his native brazil. In the three races that constituted the final he finished seventh in the first, collided with Englishman Mickey Allen in the second and finished sixth in the final round. He finished sixth overall in the championship. this was high enough for the other drivers to stand up and take note.

Although "Karting" magazine described Senna’s performance as sensational he did not agree. Senna was not there to compete, he was there to win. Rather than being perturbed his result in 1978 made him even more determined to succeed in Europe. He was already looking to 1979.

In 1979 Senna won the Brazilian Karting Championship yet again. He was prepared to go to the World Championship at Estoril to win. He decided that he would take a longer build up, staring in the series that commenced at Jesolo near Venice. He had not changed much from last year, he still had the raw talent and the aggression but he still lack a bit of polish of his more experienced competitors. Senna trademark was to be the fastest in every session, on every lap even went it was of no tactical importance. on the track he would rather go fast than hold back to gain a greater understanding of how to set his kart up and how to take each corner.

This approach led to a near disaster in the final test at Jesolo before the world Championships. As the karts slowly deposited rubber on the track through out the session the track began to offer less grip. Senna had not learnt that he would have to set up his kart in a different manner to cope with the new conditions and coming into a fast bend his kart’s two inside wheels lifted off the track and he was thrown form the kart. he hit an iron fence and the kart ploughed into his back. Although not seriously injured he was badly shaken. he took part in the championship but the experience had affected him and he was only placed sixth in the championship at Jesolo. He would have to wait until Estoril.

At the World championship he was amongst fellow Portuguese speakers, who were in support of him. In the third semi-final he was battling with who was regarded at the best karter of the day, Terry Fullerton. Senna only needed second place to secure pole for the final but he wanted to win and pushed Fullerton hard, rather than backing off. Fullerton engine seized, Senna hit the kart and his own machine was turned upside down. Senna righted his kart himself and finished eleventh.

In the first of the three finals Senna led but fell back to fifth due to his inexperience. In the second he fought his way up to second place behind Peter de Bruyn and he inherited the lead when the Dutchman's chain broke. He held his position but was passed by his DAP team-mate Peter Koene and had to settle for second place. he won the last race to the rapture of the crowd. this tied him on points with Koene. To decide the fate of the title the organisers went back to the placing in the semi finals. Senna's eleventh place that could have so easily been first had he not pushed so hard cost him the 1979 title.

In 1980 he won the Brazilian title again but was only able to reproduce the second place at the world Championships later that year, Senna was never to be world Karting champion.

it's my guess ms felt the same bout his karting career

1985   German Kart Jr Champion, World Championship runner-up 

and that ms entered the race in kerpen to do what senna never achieved, become a karting wdc

[Ross Stonefeld]

heh what year was it that Senna lost the world championship to an American NASCAR driver? 78?

[ludlum]

I thought MS was having fun and trying to enjoy racing without the pressures.
But looks like there was a dubious motive

How come Ms copies and tries to outdo senna in everything. I bet he is not aware of a person in this BB who always will find out his true motives. MS u moron

[KenC]

Originally posted by magic
it's just another ms following senna's path thing

Senna at the World Karting Championship at Le Mans in 1978.

In the early races at Le Mans he won two of the early heats, proving that he was not the typical young South American that the Europeans were accustomed to. Senna was finding that the competition was proving to be much harder than in his native brazil. In the three races that constituted the final he finished seventh in the first, collided with Englishman Mickey Allen in the second and finished sixth in the final round. He finished sixth overall in the championship. this was high enough for the other drivers to stand up and take note.

Although "Karting" magazine described Senna’s performance as sensational he did not agree. Senna was not there to compete, he was there to win. Rather than being perturbed his result in 1978 made him even more determined to succeed in Europe. He was already looking to 1979.

Okay, so tell us, were those Europeans "accustomed to" to seeing an American winning the World Karting championship? And, did any of the "other drivers,...stand up and take note"? And how did "Karting" magazine describe Lake Speed's performance?

[Eau Red]

[i]

and that ms entered the race in kerpen to do what senna never achieved, become a karting wdc [/B]

you're right, of course, but I doubt Senna really entered into his thoughts. I think the idea of stepping into another competition and winning their world championship was motivation enough.

[magic]

Weber.

"....the dead of senna touched him ( ms ) very profoundly.
i never saw him like that in all those 6 six years together.
he cried like a little boy and was deeply in shock..."


Schumacher.

"....i feel very much attached to Ayrton...."

[ludlum]

Magic what is the point of ur last past.
Do u want to prove that MS was affected by sennas death. Huh?
Ok point taken.
But will u get out of this AS fixation.
I dont know why a thread abt trulli is a 4x wdc turns into a full scale senna praising orgy:confused:

Is it snowing at ur place ? Lets talk abt that:wave:

[magic]

karting and f1 are very much attached to eachother.
prost, senna, ms, kimi and button etc.
the great f1 drivers the last two decades of were great karters.

so what has become of the other wdc's, the guys who used to beat ms and kimi?
the only karting wdc to make it into seems to be trulli.
and voila, another off-season topic is born.


that said, i'm convinced ms was more obsessed with senna people like to realise.

it has probably lessened now that he has overtaken him in almost every stat, but wait till ms surpasses the 65 pole-mark.

let me give you a clue.

reaching the senna total of vics made ms collaps in monza '00.
when he took prost's 51 record no emotion.

he doesn't care bout prost, it's all senna.

[ludlum]

Originally posted by magic


that said, i'm convinced ms was more obsessed with senna people like to realise.

it has probably lessened now that he has overtaken him in almost every stat, but wait till ms surpasses the 65 pole-mark.

let me give you a clue.

reaching the senna total of vics made ms collaps in monza '00.
when he took prost's 51 record no emotion.

he doesn't care bout prost, it's all senna.

Stupid. it was not just senna.
Jt was winning at monza
Tifosi
Coming back in the WDC
winning after being screwed in nearly 3 or 4 prev gps.
Death of a marshall.

and the pressure of having to deliver

[Ross Stonefeld]

Im getting so tired of Senna

[100cc]

Originally posted by magic
This approach led to a near disaster in the final test at Jesolo before the world Championships. As the karts slowly deposited rubber on the track through out the session the track began to offer less grip. Senna had not learnt that he would have to set up his kart in a different manner to cope with the new conditions and coming into a fast bend his kart’s two inside wheels lifted off the track and he was thrown form the kart. he hit an iron fence and the kart ploughed into his back. Although not seriously injured he was badly shaken. he took part in the championship but the experience had affected him and he was only placed sixth in the championship at Jesolo. He would have to wait until Estoril.

Less grip?? Oh well.

If Senna didn't know how to setup his kart by then, I don't know what he'd been doing in all his years of karting before that.

I recall that Senna had already gone to higher formula classes, but still went back to the karting world championships?

btw, if other people's words are important, i.e "senna was exceptional" etc., then the Peter de Bruijn guy mentioned in your post, that beat senna in 1980 for the championship, had Kimi in his karting team a few years back, and he told me he's "super fast, super driver." (Kimi never won the championship) What I'm saying is a similar story could be written about any of the top 20 drivers in the karting championships. "not much experience, didn't know the track, other guy seized engine, etcetcetc." Blame everything on inexperience, not on the inability of the driver, and never mention mistakes he made.

[100cc]

Originally posted by magic

mh
1986   Karting, five times Finnish Champion 

Its funny how you make all the other driver's karting lists as short as possible, and trulli's as long as possible.

for example Mh's list can look like this instead:

1981- 1st, Finnish F-mini Championship.
1982- Chosen as Finnish FK Junior of the Year, second in championship.
1st, Ronnie Peterson Memorial Championship
1983- 1st, Finnish FN Championship.
1984- 1st, Finnish FA Championship.
1985- 1st, Finnish FA Championship.
1986- 1st, Finnish FA Championship.

--> after which he went on the higher formuale, winning the Finnish, Nordic, and Swedish Formula Ford Championships in 1987.

Look at how long Trulli's karting career lasted, and he was a factory driver for one of the best karting teams(Tonykart), he was a professional karting driver, he stayed at the top level for longer than any f1 driver I can recall, and yes he was extremely good.

[Todd]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
heh what year was it that Senna lost the world championship to an American NASCAR driver? 78?

I guess you mean Lake Speed? I would hardly dignify him with the title of an American NASCAR driver. Sure he had the measure of Senna in a kart, and then some, but he couldn't ever really cut it in Winston Cup.

[f1seb]

Senna is the greatest!!!

[Winegod]

No, not Senna. Lake Speed!!!

[US_F1_FAN]

OMG this is a pointless waste of internet bandwidth.

SOMEBODY SHOOT ME.

[Gudrun]

Senna, RIP.
Lets go on whith the future.
Trulli is very good in qualifying.
To be a 4time champion, he should start winning, just like MSch...................

[philhitchings]

Why I should be 8 x world champion

first four years running in the egg and spoon race at my school
first four years running in three legged race
first 3 years running in the sack race
scored several competition wins in my local chess tournament whilst a teenager

the list goes on and is as relevant as this thread.

[BuzzingHornet]

Qualifying means nothing...
Its just about where you car will sit when the REAL work begins... and Trulli aint up to the job of winning. He hasn't got 'it'. I doubt he'd win in a Ferrari too, and there's not many drivers i'd say that about

[Ross Stonefeld]

Ive yet to see Trulli in a race winning car, so Ill hold my judgement

[Billy]

Originally posted by BuzzingHornet
Qualifying means nothing...

but it's good to outqualify your team-mate. Eddie Jordan said he sacked HHF because "it was a similar situation to that which happened to him at Williams, where he was outqualified on a consistent basis by Jacques."

[Ghostrider]

Trulli is a superfast guy, but he is not the fastest Italian in the field.

[BuzzingHornet]

Originally posted by Billy
but it's good to outqualify your team-mate. Eddie Jordan said he sacked HHF because "it was a similar situation to that which happened to him at Williams, where he was outqualified on a consistent basis by Jacques."

Eddie Jordan seems to be changing his story every 5 minutes on the Frentzen fiasco... thats the first time i've heard THAT one..! And it didn't stop HHF from giving Jordan a kicking in qualifying at Spa ;)

[birdie]

heh what year was it that Senna lost the world championship to an American NASCAR driver? 78?

And have the Yanks in karting ever forgotten it?!

you're right, of course, but I doubt Senna really entered into his thoughts. I think the idea of stepping into another competition and winning their world championship was motivation enough.

don't be so silly, how on earth was MS going to win a World Championship competing in two out of the 10 races?

I thought MS was having fun and trying to enjoy racing without the pressures.

You tell Robazzi at Tonykart or Tinnini at CRG that there is no pressure and see how long they laugh at you for.

Why I should be 8 x world champion

first four years running in the egg and spoon race at my school
first four years running in three legged race
first 3 years running in the sack race
scored several competition wins in my local chess tournament whilst a teenager

Oh dear not another one who equates karting with kids messing around

Beats me. Personally I find karting not such a great indicator of future success, except in most general terms. I mean AS didn't become karting WDC, neither did most other F1 WDCs, so I don't know... Though I don't mean that a guy who sucks at karting is going to be good in cars, by no means.

HSJ, you like statistical methods for predicting who will succeed in F1 right? (particularly ones which favour Finns if I remember rightly... ) Well mine is look for a driver who was perhaps a World or European Champion in a lower kart class such as JICA, ICA, FA, FC, or who was second or third in FSA, or FK as it used to be. You are right, there has never been anyone who has won WCs in more than one of the FIA's three World Championships (F1, Karts, Rallying). I think it screws with their motivation which is why I wanted professional kart driver Fore to win the WKC this year and not aspiring F1 driver Liuzzi.

[kouks]

I didn't realise Trulli was such a big beer drinker.

[The Voice of Reason]

OMG, I swear this BB is getting more surreal by the day. We need some real F1 news to talk about and we need it badly. By the time March rolls around the BB will be like "Lord of the Flies".

[birdie]

The more karting threads the better as far as I'm concerned. At the awards evening I was at on Saturday night John Surtees said that F1 has been running off the back of it for years. There's been some interesting stuff in between the mouth foamers on this thread

[Nikolas Garth]

Originally posted by kouks
I didn't realise Trulli was such a big beer drinker.

For those non-Aussies who don't know what kouks is referring to, read the title of this thread again, then look closely at the pic below.

[JollyRoger]

Top stuff kouks!

[bystander]

Look at the result-lists magic presents from FIA/CIK Karting World Championship race at Kerpen, Germany on October 28, 2001.
Look who's there: Nico Rosberg, Keke Rosberg's son.
Next generation coming....

kind regards,
just a bystander

[HSJ]

Originally posted by birdie
HSJ, you like statistical methods for predicting who will succeed in F1 right?

I have nothing against a method based on karting, but based on what little I know about it it seems that coming up with that kind of method is not likely to prove very fruitful. In addition I think it is more difficult because most drivers do most of their karting in their homelands, whereas they do most of their car racing in lower formulae internationally against each other. But if you can suggest a system based on karting I'm all ears. Also, when I publish the system and results that I've produced here (I'm getting close to a "product" that I could really publish here) then if someone can suggest how karting can be reliably added to it then that would be great really. Similarly if a good system that adds F1 results could be deviced, it would be a 'complete' theory, but I'm very skeptical about F1 because the teams and the cars play such major role and and very, very unequal, so much more than in lower formulae or karting.

[JayWay]

What did you think the "world" meant in World Karting Championship?

That's not international?

[HSJ]

Originally posted by JayWay
What did you think the "world" meant in World Karting Championship?

That's not international?

I meant WHOLE karting career, starting from race one. Sure, if we only consider the international achievements, that might work.

[JayWay]

Good drivers will go international from a very young age.

[birdie]

HSJ, I don't think it's fair to say that because karters with ambitions to move across to cars only spend about half of their kart career racing at international level it's not relevant to a prediction system. What are you trying to predict BTW? that someone will become World Champion or win a substantial amount of races or what? Let me know and let me know your criteria so far and I'll come up with some karting criteria that work. Basically they should win a European or World Championship at one of the two levels lower than FSA (MS etc)or finish second or third in World or European FSA (AS etc)

[JayWay]

It's irrelevant since in formula cars drivers will spend half their careers in regional series.

Italian F3
British Formula Ford
North American Formula Atlantics

[Manson]

I've got one name for you, Mike Wilson. How many World Karting championships did he win, 6? Beating the likes of Senna and many other hot shoes in his time. Cars for whatever reason never worked out for him, but Senna regarded him as the best driver he ever saw.

[birdie]

Mike was reliant on his salary in karting by the time he could get sponsorship for cars so he couldn't take it up

btw, Giancarlo Tinnini, CEO of CRG reckoned Zanardi was the best driver he ever had in his team, and that included Mike Wilson. I think he's on crack saying that but I've met him and he seems sane! Trulli is supposed to be the best the other megateam, Tonykart, ever had

[HSJ]

Originally posted by birdie
HSJ, I don't think it's fair to say that because karters with ambitions to move across to cars only spend about half of their kart career racing at international level it's not relevant to a prediction system. What are you trying to predict BTW? that someone will become World Champion or win a substantial amount of races or what? Let me know and let me know your criteria so far and I'll come up with some karting criteria that work. Basically they should win a European or World Championship at one of the two levels lower than FSA (MS etc)or finish second or third in World or European FSA (AS etc)

OK, so what I'm trying to do is take a driver's whole lower formulae career, crunch it into numbers (weight for things like age, success (top 3), series participated, years raced...). The thing about that is that that is car racing. I can take their whole careers. I don't count in previous karting experience even though ideally I should of course. The problem with karting is that I doubt we have sufficiently detailed data about every driver's karting record. For example I checked formula1.com and galeforcef1.com for career records, and sometimes a driver's homepage too if it seemed there might be a problem. Karting is typically mentioned too sketchily for it to be of worth. Also, though karting experience does have an influence on a driver's car racing career, it not as influential as their previous karting experience as far as their international karting career goes. So how to make a system with the drivers starting karting in their homelands at the age of 10 and then going international? It is a bit difficult to estimate each one's experience level as it varies so much. That's the good thing about lower formulae: almost all series are international and we have fairly good data on the results.

I'm trying to predict relative success. For example MS gets a higher score than RB, MH higher than DC, thus it would have been able to predict which way their in-team fights will go. To predict actual race winner and WDCs is very difficult, but it has become clear that all WDCs (with the possible exception of JV and DH) score very highly so that too works quite well.

You'll see what I'm getting at maybe in a couple of weeks when I think I'll post the system here.

[birdie]

The problem with karting is that I doubt we have sufficiently detailed data about every driver's karting record. For example I checked formula1.com and galeforcef1.com for career records, and sometimes a driver's homepage too if it seemed there might be a problem. Karting is typically mentioned too sketchily for it to be of worth.

you should look at the websites for the relevant ASNs, not at F1 sites. failing that, ask on karting BBs. I can usually find information if I need it, and I don't look at the driver's sites because they are notorious for having their press officers saying they were junior world champions (which have never existed) for example.

I don't really see the problem with starting at age 13. Because if you are starting at 10 if you were to do it, you've missed two years already in most cases, so you might as well miss another three.

I'm interested in this now, I might do a system as well. We could see who does best and then maybe combine them.