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1927 Chimay


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#1 Boniver

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Posted 25 November 2001 - 08:34

??.??.1927 Grand Prix des Frontières

circuit Chimay
Cyclecars

1. Guy d'Havrincourt - Salmson
2.
3.

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#2 FEV

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Posted 25 November 2001 - 09:14

All I know is that this was the second Grand Prix des Frontières (created in 1926 by Jules Buisseret) and that Arthur Legat was also an Amilcar starter which was one of his first races (if not the first). But I'm sure Marcor is going to come up with a lot of info on this topic :)

#3 David McKinney

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Posted 25 November 2001 - 11:34

Grand Prix des Frontières 29/08/27 (24 laps, 162 miles, 260km)
restricted to 1100cc cars - 11 starters
1 Guy d’Havrincourt (Salmson)
2 Arthur Legat (Amilcar)
3 Ken Bartlett (Génestin)
- Lionel Lippman (Salmson)
- Marcel Rouleau (Amilcar)
- Georges Bouriano (EHP)
- Gustave Janne (Amilcar) DNS
- René de Buck (Impéria) DNS

There were also separate 1hr races for other classes, with the following results:

750
1 Jacques Ledure (Sénéchal)
2 John Dufour (Peugeot 4CV)
3 Pierre Dufour (Peugeot 4CV)

1500
1 Marcel Rouleau (Amilcar 1100)
2 Max Fourny (Bugatti T37)
3 Arthur Duray (Ariès 1100)
4 Maurice Minsart (Bugatti T37)
- Michel Doré (Corre-La Licorne) DNS

2000
1 Joseph Reynaerts (Bugatti)
2 Pierre Clause (Bignan)
3 Brosselin (FASTO)
4 Maurice Minsart (Bugatti T37)
- Freddy Zehender (Georges Irat) DNF

Unlimited
1 Freddy Charlier (Bugatti 35T) (only finisher)
- Georges Bouriano (Speedsport) DNF
- Arthur Duray (Ariès 3.0) DNS

#4 Marcor

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Posted 25 November 2001 - 20:22

There were two different meetings at Chimay in 1927, the first in May (29), the GP des Frontières and the second in August (21 August but postponed to 28 because of heavy rain) called "Les Records de l'heure".

GP des Frontières (29 May): 3 different classification but one race

Racing cars
1- Guy d'Havrincourt, Salmson, 24 laps, 2h 39' 20"

DNF- Marcel Rouleau, Amilcar
DNF- Georges Bouriano, EHP

Sports cars
1- Arthur Legat, Amilcar, 2h 52' 43"
2- Ismalunn-Bey, Salmson
3- Lionel Lippman, Salmson
4- Chaudier, Amilcar

Tourism
1- Bartlett, Génestin, 2h 56' 03"
2- Douchamps, Salmson
3- Thélusson, Génestin

DNF- Génestin, Génestin.

Les Records de l'heure, 28 August 1927: 4 races, 1 hour each

race 1: 750 cc (sports and racing cars)
1- Jacques Ledure (Sénéchal) 1st sportscars
2- John Dufour (Peugeot 4CV) 1st racing cars
3- Pierre Dufour (Peugeot 4CV) 2nd sportscars
4- Carpentier (Peugeot 4CV) 3rd sportscars

race 2: 1100 cc
1- Arthur Duray, Ariès
2- Ken Bartlett, Génestin
3- Charles Delhaes, Génestin
4- Ernest André, Fiat
5- Arthur Legat, Amilcar

DNF- Marcel Rouleau, Amilcar
DNF- Max Fourny, BNC
DNF- Lez, Morgan aero
DNF- Gustave Buyle, Amilcar

race 3: 1500 cc
1- Marcel Rouleau, Amilcar 1100
2- Max Fourny, Bugatti T37
3- Arthur Duray, Ariès 1100
4- Maurice Minsart, Bugatti T37
5- Paul Génestin, Génestin

DNF- Lez Morgan Special

DNA- Michel Doré, Corre-La Licorne, (was there at the original date, 21 August)

race 4: 2000 cc
1- Joseph Reynaerts, Bugatti
2- Pierre Clause, Bignan
3- Brosselin, FASTO
4- Maurice Minsart, Bugatti T37
DNF- Freddy Zehender, Georges Irat

race 5, 3 L and more
1 Freddy Charlier (Bugatti 35T) (only finisher)

DNF- Georges Bouriano, Speedsport
DNF- "Nemo", Excelsior

Sources: Les Sports (newspaper) + Le Grand Prix des Frontières à Chimay Tome 1

Interested by the results of the race meetings at Thuin ?

#5 Boniver

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Posted 26 November 2001 - 18:11

Marcor, David,

Great work, and thanks for posting it



I have only winner for the race in Thuin , :rolleyes:

for 12 june 1927 first GP de Thuin (Charleroi)

Tour 1100 cc 1. Captain Jacques Lamarche - FN
1500 cc 1.Bartlett - Genestin
2000 cc 1. Burie - Georges Irat
3000 cc 1. George Bouriano - Speedsport
sport 1. Lipman - Salmson
Racing 750cc 1. Dufour - Peugeot
Racing 1100cc 1 D Havrinncourt - Salmson
Racing 2000 cc 1. Reinartz - Bugatti

for 18 september 1927 first Meeting de Thuin
Tour 1. André - Fiat
race 1. Burie - Georges Irat
Racing 1. Charlier - Bugatti

There was also a race
24 juni 1928
A 1. Legat - Amilcar
B 1.Zehender - Bugatti
C. Rouleau - Amilcar
D. Delzaert - ?

23 juni 1929
A.1. Zehender - Alfa Romeo
B.1. Delzaert - Bugatti
C.1. Charlier - Bugatti
Handicap 1. Roland - Alfa Romeo

1930 ????


:)

#6 Marcor

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Posted 27 November 2001 - 01:12

This is the results of the first meeting at Thuin (a little town near Charleroi)

Courses de vitesse de Thuin, 12 June 1927

Race 1: 750 and 1100 cc, 4 starters
1 (1 T 1100 cc)- Bartlett, Genestin GS8, 1h 26' 42" 6
2 (2 T 1100 cc)- Genestin, Genestin GS8, 1h 33' 34" 4
3 (1 R 750 cc)- Dufour, Peugeot, 1h 45' 45" 8
4 (2 750 cc)- Agie de Selsaete, Peugeot

Race 2: 1100 - 1500 cc, 6 starters
1 (1 T 1500 cc)- Lamarche, FN 1500 cc, 1h 19' 45" 2
2 (1 S 1500 cc)- Lipman, Salmson GS, 1h 21' 59" 5
3- Lemaire, Chenard & Walcker 1500 cc, 1h 39' 8" 4
4- de Stordeur, Chenard & Walcker 1500 cc, 1h 45' 23" 4
5- Madame Cousinat, Fiat 505

DNF (crash)- Sachot, Salmson 1100 cc

Race 3: 1500 cc - 2000 cc, 3 starters
1- Bouriano, Speedsport, 1h 21' 32" 2
2 (1 T 2000 cc)- Burie, Georges Irat, 1h 27' 49" 8
3- Roland, Metallurgique, 1h 30' 34"

Race 4: 2000 cc - 3000 cc + 1 other, 4 starters
1 (1 2000 cc)- Reynartz, Bugatti, 1h 15' 23"
2- de Stordeur, Excelsior, 1h 23' 25"
3 (1 R 1100)- d'Havrincourt, Salmson Grand Prix 1100 cc, 1h 34' 32"

DNF(gearbox problems)- Blancas, Bugatti

DNA- Jeck, FN 1500
DNA- Charlier, Ballot
DNA- Venge, Chrysler
DNA- Barigan, Chrysler
DNA- Lemmens, Chrysler
DNA- Omer, Chrysler
DNA- Lemare, Chrysler
DNA- Devière, Bugatti
DNA- Rouleau, Amilcar C6
DNA- Ismalun, Salmson GS VAL3
DNA- Seghin, GAR
DNA- Jacquet, Bugatti
DNA- James, Amilcar
DNA- Brasseur, X
DNA- Chaudier, X
DNA- Douchamps, Salmson
DNA- Declère, Imperia
DNA- de Koneski, Georges Irat
DNA- de Hubin, Georges Irat

org: RAC de Charleroi

#7 Marcor

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Posted 27 November 2001 - 01:23

Thuin: second meeting, 18/09/27, rain, each race = 22 laps (100 km)

Race 1: Tourism 750 - 1100 - 1500 cc.
1 (1 1500 cc)- Ernest André, Fiat, 1h 38' 31"
2 (2 1500 cc)- Sprimont, Chenard, 1h 38' 40"
3 (1 750 cc)- John Dufour, Peugeot, 1h 45' 38"
4 (2 750 cc)- Carpentier, Peugeot, + 3 laps

DNF Crochet, Truar Morel
DNF- Lecocq, Fiat 1500 cc

Race 2: Tourism 1500 cc and more.
1 (1 2000 cc)- Emile Burie, Georges Irat, 1h 24' 23" 4
2 (1 1500 cc)- Vanderelst, Bugatti, 1h 36' 18" 2
3 (2 1500 cc)- Blin d'Orimont, FN, 1h 48' 15" 2
4 (2 2000 cc)- Madame Cousinat, Ballot, 1h 54' 14" 2

FL- Emile Burie, Georges Irat, 3' 38"

DNF(+ 2000 cc)- Georges Bouriano, Speedsport

Race 3
1 (1 R 3000 cc)- Freddy Charlier, Bugatti, 1h 18' 59"
2 (1 R 2000 cc)- Joseph Reynartz, Bugatti, 1h 27'
3 (1 R 1500 cc)- Maurice Minsart, Bugatti, 1h 30' 10"
4 (1 T + 2000 cc)- Marc (Maro or Marco ???), Bugatti, 1h 31' 18"

DNA: (they were in the entry list published some days before the meeting)
Agie de Selsaete (replaced by Carpentier), Peugeot 750 cc
Jacques Ledure, Sénéchal
Marcel Rouleau, Amilcar
Rouleau, Amilcar (brother of Marcel Rouleau)
Max Fourny, BNC
Arthur Legat, Amilcar
Douchamps, Salmson
Pierre Clause, Bignan
Freddy Thélusson, Fasto
Guy d'Havrincourt, Salmson
Lionel Lipmann, Salmson
de Stordeur, Excelsior
Roland, Metallurgique
X, Génestin

#8 Marcor

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Posted 27 November 2001 - 01:29

10 June 1928, Circuit de Thuin, 5 races of 100 km except last race (50 km)

Race 1, 750 cc and 1100 cc.
1 (1 T 1100 cc)- Arthur Legat, Amilcar, 1h 26'
2 (1 R 1100 cc)- Ernest André, Fiat, 1h 29' 56"
3 (1 R 750 cc)- Freddy Thélusson, Sénéchal, 1h 38' 33
4 (1 T 750 cc)- Carpentier, Peugeot, 1h 47' 25
5 (2 T 1100 cc)- Madame Marie Coussinat, Fiat, + 7 laps

DNF- Douchamps, Salmson 1100 cc
DNF- Emile Cornet, Amilcar 1100 cc

Race 2 (1100 - 1500 cc)
1 (1 R)- Freddy Zehender, Bugatti 37A, 1h 15' 59"
2 (1 T)- Paul Genestin, Genestin, 1h 24' 35"
3 (2 T)- Franz Breyre, Chenard & Walcker, 1h 41' 49"

DNF- Maurice Minsart, Bugatti
DNF- Alphonse Evrard, Chenard & Walcker
DNF- Madame Eskens, FN

Race 3: 2000 cc + 3 other cars
1 (1 R 1100 cc)- Rouleau, Amilcar 1100 cc, 1h 17' 41"
2 (1 T 2000 cc)- Emile Burie, Georges Irat 2000 cc, 1h 20' 41"
3 (2 T 2000 cc)- Ernest André, Georges Irat 2000 cc, 1h 22' 37"
4 (1 T 1500 cc)- Willy Longueville, Bugatti, 1h 24' 56"
5 (3 T 2000 cc)- Mademoiselle Marlier, Georges Irat 2000 cc, 1h 27' 08"
6 (2 R 1100 cc)- Max Fourny, BNC, 1h 29' 42"
7 (4 T 2000 cc)- Barette, Bugatti, 1h 33' 50"
8 (1 R 2000 cc)- Joseph Reynartz, Bugatti, 1h 40' 16"

Race 4: 2000c - 3000 cc (R - T)
1 (1 R 3000 cc)- Delsaert, Bugatti, 1h 08' 55"
2 (2 R 3000 cc)- Freddy Charlier, Bugatti, 1h 10' 53"
3 (1 T 3000 cc)- Joseph Reynartz, Bugatti, 1h 13' 39"

FL- Delsaert, Bugatti, 4' 02"

Race 5, for ladies (11 laps = 50 km)
1- Mademoiselle Marlier, Georges Irat, 43' 15"
2- Madame Eskens, FN,
3- Madame Marie Cousinat, Fiat,

#9 Marcor

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Posted 27 November 2001 - 01:34

I will send the results of the 1929 Thuin meeting later. And yes it was the last edition of the race. (Economic crisis...)

#10 Boniver

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Posted 29 November 2001 - 18:28

Marcor,

Great work, and thanks for posting it
:stoned:

#11 Marcor

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Posted 30 November 2001 - 01:46

as promised:

Meeting de Thuin, 23 June 1929

Race 1 (100.5 km) : Tourism 750 - 1100 - 1500 cc
1 (1500)- Freddy Zehender Alfa Romeo 1h 16' 28"
2 (1st 1100)- Franz Gouvion Lombard 1h 17' 38"
3 (2nd 1100)- Télesphore Georges Amilcar 1h 23' 40"
4 (3rd 1100)- Emile Cornet Amilcar 1h 23' 46"
5 (4th 1100)- Gouzou Amilcar 1h 29' 24"
6 (5th 1100)- Devière Fiat 1h 30' 22"
7 (1st 750)- Thibaut Rosengart
8 (2nd 750)- Gulée Peugeot

FL- Freddy Zehender, 3' 20"

Race 2 (100.5 km) : Racing cars 1100 and 1500 cc
1- Delzaert Bugatti 1h 12' 4"
2- Willy Longueville Bugatti 37A 1h 12' 7"
3- Arthur Legat Bugatti 1h 15' 48"
4- Ernest André Bugatti 37 1h 18' 23"
5 (1st 1100)- Georges de Marotte Salmson GP 1h 18' 45"

DNF- Rouleau Amilcar C6 1100 cc

Race 3 (100.5 km) : 2 - 3 L + 3 L Racing cars
1 (1st 3 L Racing)- Freddy Charlier Bugatti 1h 10' 25" 4
2 (3 L Tourism)- Joseph Reinartz Bugatti 1h 16' 30"
3 (2 L Tourism)- Alex Roland Alfa Romeo 1h 30' 50"
4 (2 L Tourism)- Emile Cornil Georges Irat 1h 34' 40"
5 (3 L Tourism)- Maurice Minsart Bugatti 1h 39' 49"

FL- Freddy Charlier Bugatti 3' 03"

DNF (2 L Tourism)- Marouf Georges Irat

handicap (20 laps)
1 (H =14’)- Alex Roland Alfa Romeo 1h 16' 47"
2 (scratch)- Freddy Charlier Bugatti 1h 05' 52"
3 (H = 2’)- Delzaert Bugatti 1h 08' 45"
4 (H = 6’)- Joseph Reinartz Bugatti 1h 13' 39"
5 (H = 6’)- Freddy Zehender Alfa Romeo 1h 16' 43"

Stopped (H = 7’)- Franz Gouvion Lombard

#12 Boniver

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Posted 02 December 2001 - 16:47

Marcor,

Thank you for this Belgium racing history

;)

#13 Udo K.

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Posted 02 December 2001 - 18:46

I'd like to join in that big THANK YOU. Fantastic, Marc.

Udo

#14 Tony Kaye

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Posted 03 December 2001 - 02:58

Marc, many thanks for the races at Thuin. They had been on my wants list for some years as they were not in Paul Sheldon's black books.

#15 Tony Kaye

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Posted 04 December 2001 - 00:38

Marc,
I now have three sources of data on the Thuin races, the Kupelian/Sirtaine book, Delsaux' book (kindly translated by R. de Jongue) and your records in this thread. Of the three, yours are infinitely the most detailed, the others providing little more than some of the winners. However, by putting the three together, I think it is possible to learn a little more, particularly about that first meeting in June 1927.

The organizers obviously had a problem with the diversity (and the paucity) of the entry. They had five capacity classes, 750cc, 1100cc, 1500cc, 2000cc and 3000cc and three types of cars, touring, sports and racing, making potentially 15 different categories. If they ran a race just for the touring cars for instance, the larger ones would leave the 750 cc cars way behind. Likewise if they ran say an open 2-liter race, the racing cars would make the touring cars look foolish. So they opted to run various categories of similar performance in each race. With each race due to last more than an hour, this would ensure that the day would not be a series of processions.

The shortage of entries due to the large number of non-appearances probably meant that there were no competitors in some of the categories. From the results it is possible to determine some of the categories in each race. This does not tally exactly with Marc's list, but it does explain the '+other cars' in some of the races. This is the best version I can come up with.

Race 1 Touring 1100cc, Racing 750cc
Race 2 Touring 1500cc, Sports 1100cc, Sports 1500cc.
Race 3 Touring 2000cc, Touring 3000cc
Race 4 Racing 1100cc, Racing 2000cc

That leaves six further potential categories for which there may have been no competitors.

The various sources are less helpful for the September 1927 meeting, but I suspect that there may have been fewer mixed categories than at the first meeting. It also seems unlikely that 1500cc touring cars would have taken part in both of the first two races as Marc's list implies. This is my best guess.

Race 1 Touring 750cc, 1100cc, 1500cc (Exactly as Marc's list)
Race 2 Sports 1500cc, 2000cc
Race 3 Racing 1500cc, 2000cc, 3000cc, Touring 2000cc

For this to be correct Vanderelst's Bugatti and d'Orimont's FN would have to be sports cars, not touring cars. Can anyone confirm this?

I have not attempted to work out the classifications for the races in 1928. For a start there is no reference to Sportscars in the results and secondly there is some duplication of classes from one race to another. For instance Andre in a Fiat is said to be the winner of the 1100cc racing class in race 1 as is Rouleau in race 3. Likewise, Genestin is presumably the winner of the 1500cc touring class in race 2 as is Burie in race 3. I suspect that there were sports car categories as in previous years, but that they have appeared in the results as touring cars.

Finally, the various sources seem to be in agreement on the 1929 race definitions. All I would add is that race 3 seems to be for touring 2000cc, 3000cc and Racing 3000cc. Also Reinartz would be (1st 3 L Tourism), Roland (1st 2 L Tourism), Cornil (2nd 2 L Tourism) and Minsart (2nd 3 L Tourism) all of which is evident in Marc?s listing.

To add to the overall confusion, the absence of sportscar classes in 1929 lends credence to their absence in 1928. But if that is the case, the 1928 classifications are REALLY hard to explain.

Marc, we need your expertise again to sort out these problems as I'm sure that my guesses are not completely correct. However, as far as I'm concerned all of this has cleared up one point. If Paul Sheldon had been aware of the races at Thuin, he would have had no choice but to ignore them because none of the races was restricted to pure racing cars. With the possible exception of Race 2 in 1929.................

As a footnote, Freddy Charlier, who won the penultimate race at Thuin in 1929, died a couple of weeks later in a fatal crash during the Spa 24 hour race on 6th July.

#16 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 05 December 2001 - 09:30

Marc,
Thank you. :clap: :love: :love: :love: :clap:

I'll add the races to my list.

#17 VDP

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Posted 05 December 2001 - 10:02

FN build in the twenties a derivated of their 1300 touring car a sports car the 1300 S.
This car was entered for sports events like 24 h spa and others. Very few remain I know
only 5 in running order and one of them in australia an early type. The production cars were
bodied with a weyman body . Some were bodied like prewar racers. I ll try to find pictures of them


Robert